A woman's faith

FredVB

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The Bible was written in cultural settings and specific things about women leading written in that are within cultural context, for issues women were involved in within that culture. Those were in no way universal in application. Women lead in other places in the world, and in the society of our modern culture women have come to positions of leadership, in business, and in political life, and it is seen those involved that way are capable. It is said in the Bible in Christ there is no distinction to divide males and females as there is no distinction to divide Jews and gentiles. I cannot believe God restricts some who are equally among God's creatures with the capacity from equally having possible roles among others in Christ.
 
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Clare73

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The Bible was written in cultural settings and specific things about women leading written in that are within cultural context, for issues women were involved in within that culture. Those were in no way universal in application. Women lead in other places in the world, and in the society of our modern culture women have come to positions of leadership, in business, and in political life, and it is seen those involved that way are capable. It is said in the Bible in Christ there is no distinction to divide males and females as there is no distinction to divide Jews and gentiles.
I cannot believe
Yeah. . .I got that.
 
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FredVB

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Generally churches holding women back from eldership or other leadership roles cite two controversial New Testament passages for their view to do so: 1 Corinthians 11:3 and 1 Timothy 2:11-12. But they take a narrow view on those verses and don’t give adequate weight to a number of other Scriptures that do support female leadership in the church and elsewhere. It makes no logical sense that a woman could lead the board of a Fortune 100 company, be the President of the United States, or be endorsed as a high-level spiritual leader in the Bible, but not serve as an official leader in a church. Yet there are many Christian men and women who have high regard for women and still believe the Bible teaches that church elders/leaders should be restricted to men.

In 1 Timothy 2:11-12 Paul says, “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” (NIV)

Similarly, in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 he says, “Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.” (NIV)

A straightforward, literal reading of these texts, does seem to support that a church should not have women pastors or elders.

But many evangelical Christian church denominations do not interpret these Bible passages to restrict women from leadership; they ordain women as pastors and install them as elders or overseers: Presbyterian, Methodist, Assemblies of God and other Pentecostal traditions, Friends (Quaker), certain Baptist and Lutheran groups, some nondenominational churches, Evangelical Covenant, and the Reformed Church in America (RCA).

Evangelical Christian Biblical scholarship of Dallas Willard, N.T. Wright, Scot McKnight, and others suggest that spokespersons for Christ who keep women from church leadership using 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Corinthians 14 are misinterpreting these texts and neglecting to give sufficient weight to other relevant Bible passages. These scholars make a strong case that by studying the Biblical and cultural context of those verses, along with drawing on the whole counsel of God’s Word, to show significant support for qualified women being given opportunities to serve in church leadership.

In the complementarian view, the Bible teaches that men and women are unique and designed differently by God. They are considered of equal value and status but they have different functions in the family and church. Men are created by God for headship (which they define as leadership) roles and women for submissive (supportive) roles. While women may assist in a decision-making process the ultimate authority rests with the man. In these families typically the father is the wage-earner and the mother is more focused on the children. In most conservative Bible churches the complementarian paradigm is on display. The pastors and elders are all men because women are not eligible to serve in these roles. Even the guest speakers are always or almost always men. Or if a missionary couple is introduced or makes a report at the church the man is the designated leader and does all or most of the talking. Wives are in a supporting role.

The main contrasting view to complementarian male and female roles is the egalitarian view. There is the belief that God’s plan and the Bible’s teaching is that men and women are equal not only in value and status but also in the work they can do. They have equal authority in decisions and any role in society, including church, is open to either. Male and female distinctions are still honored, but that doesn’t limit either’s opportunities to serve in particular leadership roles or to exercise authority.

For churches operating with an egalitarian paradigm, you’ll regularly see gifted women preachers bringing the Word of God to the church. The lead pastor may be a woman and in larger churches, some of the pastors, executives, and elders will be women. When a missionary couple is invited onto the church stage to be prayed over the women might be a co-leader with her husband or the called leader who is being supported by her husband.

Understand that Peter’s teaching on spiritual leadership in church ministry (“overseers”) in 1 Peter 5:1-11 applies to men and women humbling themselves under Christ and being servant leaders for the sake of the church and its ministry to the surrounding community. Peter focuses elders not on governing or ruling the church, but on ministry to people. In some churches, elders run the church like the Wizard of Oz behind the curtain. They have power over the pastors and the governance of the church (and possibly micromanaging the church staff and operations), even though they’re not directly involved in servant ministry to people in the church and community. Their qualifications for leadership are mostly about giftedness, business success, money, and powerful personalities.

Dallas Willard has some common sense wisdom to offer on this issue:

All through my young life [growing up in Baptist churches in Missouri] those who had taught me most “at church” were women. Actually, I knew that, in many cases, there would have been no church at all if it hadn’t been for women; and, beyond church, life in my environment was mainly anchored in strong and intelligent women who — often with little or nothing in the way of “credentials” — simply stood for what was good and right and directed others in the way of Christ. Of course I knew that in my church the “official” pastors were men, but the issue of women teaching men and “preaching” had not hardened in that time and place, and, if need required — as was frequently the case — certain women could do very well at “bringing the message.” Also, I was fortunate to be in significant contact where women were in leadership roles — quite “officially.”

Dallas indicated that as he grew older and studied the Bible it became clear to him that the Biblical passages that seemed to prohibit women from preaching were not giving general principles for us today. He said it is “a very weak hermeneutic” to use these passages to deprive women of leadership opportunities. Instead, in these texts, Paul is primarily teaching that Christ-followers are to be “all things to all people” (1 Corinthians 9:19) in order to bring salvation to as many people as possible.

Women as Pastors, Elders, and Leaders in Bible-Based Churches - Soul Shepherding
 
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Clare73

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Generally churches holding women back from eldership or other leadership roles cite two controversial New Testament passages for their view to do so: 1 Corinthians 11:3 and 1 Timothy 2:11-12. But they take a narrow view on those verses and don’t give adequate weight to a number of other Scriptures that do support female leadership in the church and elsewhere.
It makes no logical sense
Divine foul #1. . .judging the divine by the human, measuring God's ways by human ways. Our ways are not God's ways (Isaiah 55:8-9).
that a woman could lead the board of a Fortune 100 company, be the President of the United States, or be endorsed as a high-level spiritual leader in the Bible, but not serve as an official leader in a church. Yet there are many Christian men and women who have high regard for women and still believe the Bible teaches that church elders/leaders should be restricted to men.
In 1 Timothy 2:11-12 Paul says, “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” (NIV)
That is in the Christian assembly only.
Women are not to be pastors or teachers of men.
Similarly, in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 he says, “Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.” (NIV)
A straightforward, literal reading of these texts, does seem to support that a church should not have women pastors or elders.
Agreed. . .which is called taking Scripture as its word, rather than our own word and notions.
But many evangelical Christian church denominations do not interpret these Bible passages to restrict women from leadership; they ordain women as pastors and install them as elders or overseers: Presbyterian, Methodist, Assemblies of God and other Pentecostal traditions, Friends (Quaker), certain Baptist and Lutheran groups, some nondenominational churches, Evangelical Covenant, and the Reformed Church in America (RCA).

Evangelical Christian Biblical scholarship of Dallas Willard, N.T. Wright, Scot McKnight, and others suggest that spokespersons for Christ who keep women from church leadership using 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Corinthians 14 are misinterpreting these texts and neglecting to give sufficient weight to other relevant Bible passages. These scholars make a strong case that by studying the Biblical and cultural context of those verses, along with drawing on the whole counsel of God’s Word, to show significant support for qualified women being given opportunities to serve in church leadership.

In the complementarian view, the Bible teaches that men and women are unique and designed differently by God. They are considered of equal value and status but they have different functions in the family and church. Men are created by God for headship (which they define as leadership) roles and women for submissive (supportive) roles. While women may assist in a decision-making process the ultimate authority rests with the man. In these families typically the father is the wage-earner and the mother is more focused on the children. In most conservative Bible churches the complementarian paradigm is on display. The pastors and elders are all men because women are not eligible to serve in these roles. Even the guest speakers are always or almost always men. Or if a missionary couple is introduced or makes a report at the church the man is the designated leader and does all or most of the talking. Wives are in a supporting role.

The main contrasting view to complementarian male and female roles is the egalitarian view.
There is the belief that God’s plan and the Bible’s teaching is that men and women are equal not only in value and status but also in the work they can do.
Divine foul #2. . .it's not about human value and status.
They have equal authority in decisions and any
role in society, including church, is open to either. Male and female distinctions are still honored, but that doesn’t limit either’s opportunities to serve in particular leadership roles or to exercise authority.

For churches operating with an egalitarian paradigm, you’ll regularly see gifted women preachers bringing the Word of God to the church. The lead pastor may be a woman and in larger churches, some of the pastors, executives, and elders will be women. When a missionary couple is invited onto the church stage to be prayed over the women might be a co-leader with her husband or the called leader who is being supported by her husband.

Understand that Peter’s teaching on spiritual leadership in church ministry (“overseers”) in
1 Peter 5:1-11 applies to men and women
Divine foul #3. . .applying this passage to women with no basis in the passage for doing so, particularly in light of Peter's admonition that, as citizens should submit to rulers and slaves to their masters, so wives should submit to their husbands (1 Peter 3:1), and that's not even to mention the contradiction of other NT teaching.
applying this passage to women humbling themselves under Christ and being servant leaders for the sake of the church and its ministry to the surrounding community. Peter focuses elders not on governing or ruling the church, but on ministry to people.
Are teaching and leading not ministering to the flock? The shepherds (pastors, elders, overseers, bishops) minister to the flock in teaching and leading them.
In some churches, elders run the church
Divine foul #4. . .this is the NT model, where the shepherds are "he" and must be 1) able to teach, 2) able to lead, 3) successful leaders of their families, and 4) husbands.
( like the Wizard of Oz behind the curtain. They have power over the pastors and the governance of the church (and possibly micromanaging the church staff and operations), even though they’re not directly involved in servant ministry to people in the church and community. Their qualifications for leadership are mostly about giftedness, business success, money, and powerful personalities.
Dallas Willard has some common sense wisdom to offer on this issue:
All through my young life [growing up in Baptist churches in Missouri] those who had taught me most “at church” were women.
Yes, the ministry of women in the church assembly is to teach women and children.
Dallas indicated that as he grew older and studied the Bible it became clear to him that the Biblical passages that seemed to prohibit women from preaching were not giving general principles for us today. He said it is “a very weak hermeneutic” to use these passages to deprive women of leadership opportunities.
Divine foul #5. . .Dallas' "hermeneutic," developed for interpreting human literature and then applied to divine literature, is the actual "very weak hermeneutic" failing in its intepretation here.

The Scriptural proscription of women in leadership over men in the church assembly

is not based in cultural settings and women's leadership in this cultural context.
Rather, it is grounded in both of God's creation orders, in the original creation order and in the "new" creation order of the church as the bride of Christ:

"I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived, it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner." (1 Timothy 2:12-14)

A man is the image and glory of God, but the woman is the glory of man. Man did not come from woman, but woman from man."
(1 Corinthians 11:7-8)

"The head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3)

Wives submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife as Christ is head of the church, his body of which he is the Savior. As the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. (Ephesians 5:22-24)

A correct Scriptural "hermeneutic" regarding the proscription of women's authority over men in the Christian assembly understands this proscription in the light of God's two creation orders, rather than in a supposed "cultural context."
 
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FredVB

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Thinking that God cares less for opportunities for some people, God's own creatures, than people do, is not understanding God. Men and women certainly have capacity in some things the same, resourcefulness and ability to lead are such things, and narrow understanding of some Bible verses without acknowledgement of the context of cultural settings is not good to have in the way of that.
 
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Clare73

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Thinking that God cares less for opportunities for some people, God's own creatures, than people do, is not understanding God. Men and women certainly have capacity in some things the same, resourcefulness and ability to lead are such things, and narrow understanding of some Bible verses without acknowledgement of the context of cultural settings is not good to have in the way of that.
Denying God's word in authoritative NT teaching is
1) not only not understanding God, but also
2) setting oneself above God and
3) disobeying God.
 
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SkyWriting

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Hello, I am a new member to the forum but have read the posts for a long time and have found them very useful. I wondered if someone might be able to help me with this. Last week, I was speaking to a Catholic friend who argued that women should not be priests or deacons and he had some very persuasive arguments. He was saying how there were no women disciples and Jesus was a man. I am Christian and a woman and I don't agree with him. I think we
are all God's children and some of the best guidance I have received has been from women. What at do you think? What would you have said? He is very devout and was able to quote a lot of scripture and although I don't think I agree with him, it was difficult for me to express my thoughts. Really interested to see what people think.:help:

Simply:

Matthew 7:12
“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Luke 6:31
And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.

So there can be no discrimination based on gender for believers.
 
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SkyWriting

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Denying God's word in authoritative NT teaching is
1) not only not understanding God, but also
2) setting oneself above God and
3) disobeying God.

Obey God, ignore gender based advice.
Matthew 7:12
“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Luke 6:31
And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.
 
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Clare73

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SkyWriting

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Those are mutally exclusive.

Ephesians 5:22-24 is pretty clear about what obeying God means in that regarrd.
The letters to the churches were not to grown-ups, but were to infant baby churches still in their infancy. Also, there were local laws and God prefers local laws be followed.
Similarly gender discrimination is currently banned. So gender discrimination is obsolete.


Which is fully covered in the antidiscrimination passages:

Matthew 7:12
“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Luke 6:31
And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.

Romans 13:8-10
Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Mark 12:29-34
Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him. And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

Galatians 5:13-14
For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Leviticus 19:18
You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

1 Timothy 1:5
The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

Matthew 22:39-40
And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

Zechariah 8:16-17
These are the things that you shall do: Speak the truth to one another; render in your gates judgments that are true and make for peace; do not devise evil in your hearts against one another, and love no false oath, for all these things I hate, declares the Lord.”

Micah 6:8
He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
 
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Clare73

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The letters to the churches were not to grown-ups, but were to infant baby churches still in their infancy. Also, there were local laws and God prefers local laws be followed.
Neither of which has any relevance to NT teaching.

Nor do you provide specifics, only general assertions.
Similarly gender discrimination is currently banned. So gender discrimination is obsolete.
Secular law does not govern internal church practice. . .yet.
 
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SkyWriting

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Neither of which has any relevance to NT teaching. Nor do you provide specifics, only general assertions.

If you are not afraid of specifics:
50“Friend,” Jesus replied, “do what you came for.”g
Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus, and arrested Him. 51At this, one of Jesus’ companions drew his sword and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.52“Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him. “For all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53Are you not aware that I can call on My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen this way?”55At that time Jesus said to the crowd, “Have you come out with swords and clubs to arrest Me as you would an outlaw? Every day I sat teaching in the temple courts,h and you did not arrest Me. 56But this has all happened so that the writings of the prophets would be fulfilled.” Then all the disciples deserted Him and fled.

7 The Jews answered him, “We have a law, and according to that law he ought to die because he has made himself the Son of God.” 8 When Pilate heard this statement, he was even more afraid. 9 He entered his headquarters again and said to Jesus, “Where are you from?” But Jesus gave him no answer. 10 So Pilate said to him, “You will not speak to me? Do you not know that I have authority to release you and authority to crucify you?” 11 Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above.


Secular law does not govern internal church practice. . .yet.
If you know of any churches are currently operating illegally,
then you'd have a case. Snake handler's maybe? Pedophilia?
Mismanagement of funds? Sex abuse?
 
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FredVB

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Clare73 said:
Denying God's word in authoritative NT teaching is
1) not only not understanding God, but also
2) setting oneself above God and
3) disobeying God.

Personal accusation is the easy road, which gets chosen when a thorough refutation cannot be given in an answer, often. My posts do not deny God's word, rather there is no need to extrapolate from specific addresses for local circumstances to all believers, or all people, generally. Do you keep your head always covered in congregating with other believers? According to the understanding you express that is what you need to do. There are other such specifics to attend to. Understanding God should though include desire to find and live according to the perfect will of God. I do what I can for that, how about you? There is biblical basis to see for what has relevance to that. So there is nothing to show establishing either setting the self up above God (which is never good enough to succeed ultimately) or disobeying God. If we sin we do that, if we are repentant believers we turn from that to not continue in that.

Galatians 3:27-29 "As as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Matthew 7:12 "Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets."
 
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Ted Kaz

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Hello, I am a new member to the forum but have read the posts for a long time and have found them very useful. I wondered if someone might be able to help me with this. Last week, I was speaking to a Catholic friend who argued that women should not be priests or deacons and he had some very persuasive arguments. He was saying how there were no women disciples and Jesus was a man. I am Christian and a woman and I don't agree with him. I think we
are all God's children and some of the best guidance I have received has been from women. What at do you think? What would you have said? He is very devout and was able to quote a lot of scripture and although I don't think I agree with him, it was difficult for me to express my thoughts. Really interested to see what people think.:help:

The thing here is that the sacrament of the Holy Orders was instituted by the Roman Catholic church based on the teachings of Jesus Christ. Since Jesus did not choose women as apostles (although he had various female disciples), the holy Roman Catholic church chose to follow his example and ordain only men as priests. That said, women do certainly have their role in the Church in various leadership positions.

In a way, nature gave different attributes to the sexes. Only men can be priests alright, but only women can be mothers. Should men complain that they were not given a fair chance to play the most prestigious role a human has ever played in God's divine plan - i.e. that of being Jesus's mother?
 
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Waymarker

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..Last week, I was speaking to a Catholic friend who argued that women should not be priests or deacons..

Point him to these verses..:)-

"In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will preach, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. On my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will speak." (Joel 2:28-32)

The evangelist Philip had four daughters who were preachers, and the early Christian sect in Phrygia was led by Montanus and two preachers, Priscilla and Maximilla..
Paul paid glowing tributes to women -"I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church in Cenchrea..she has been a great help to many people, including me..
Greet Priscilla , my fellow worker in Christ Jesus, she risked her life for me.
Greet Mary, who worked very hard for you..
Greet Tryphena and Tryphosa and Persis, those women who work hard in the Lord.
Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother, who has been a mother to me, too.
Greet Julia.." (Romans ch 16)

And Paul reminds us -
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28 )

Church of England women clergy-
rel-women-clergy.jpg
 
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