Can Salvation be lost?

prophecy_uk said:

When we abide, we can be cut off.


How can you abide in Christ until Christ is known only by the Spirit now, they knew Him once in the flesh but now no more.

It is also testified all were dead ( then you deny the disciples were all dead until Christ rose from the dead ?)


2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

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Your reading what was written to people who NEVER WALKED WITH CHRIST AND WERE NEVER DIRECTLY TAUGHT BY HIM. The apostles followed Him and lived with Him for 3 years. There’s a big difference, the apostles were directly taught by Christ for 3 years the Corinthians were not.

prophecy_uk said:

Apostle Paul speaks to us now, as a we ( for all live unto God)


It makes little sense to say that the writer can be cut off.


2000 years later, and on top of salvation being lost, it needs to be found first, and disputing is not a way to find it. ( especially for vanity sake)

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Paul specifically stated in 2 Timothy 2:12 that if He or Timothy were to deny Christ, He would deny them.

prophecy_uk said:

Do you think they are in Him ( Christ) already and perfect ( the disciples with Jesus) or they needed the death and rising of Christ?

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Yes they were in Him, Jesus specifically said that they were in Him. We’re they perfect? No, they weren’t perfect before His crucifixion and they weren’t perfect afterwards either. No one is.

prophecy_uk said:

This man ( Jesus Christ) offered Himself as sacrifice, and by that one offering He perfected for ever them that are sanctified ( Jesus sanctified Himself in the death of the cross to sanctify the disciples)

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He perfected them by cleansing them of their sin not in their understanding of the Spirit.

prophecy_uk said:

The Gospel also is for the future sheep, they hear this message of being in the vine and understand that occured when Jesus gave the Holy Spirit, for us all to be one in Him, nothing perfect came before then..


John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


Here is the question for you guys, in your own minds, Jesus had to sanctify Himself, for the disciples sakes, and to make all perfect in one, Him in them and them in Him.


Do you think they are in Him ( Christ) already and perfect ( the disciples with Jesus) or they needed the death and rising of Christ?



John 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.




Jesus became High Priest, by replacing the old covenant that brought death which then brings us near to Christ to make them perfect....


Hebrews 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.


This man ( Jesus Christ) offered Himself as sacrifice, and by that one offering He perfected for ever them that are sanctified ( Jesus sanctified Himself in the death of the cross to sanctify the disciples)


Do you say that the disciples were sanctified before Christ was dead and risen ?

It makes no sense if you say yes.

As Jesus first had to be sanctified, then to sanctify the disciples through the truth ( through the Spirit of truth then given to them) and the one offering HE PERFECTS FOREVER THEM THAT ARE SANCTIFIED..


Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

John 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.




This gives the new covenant, ( Christ had to do this to take the curse away which the disciples were still under as it is only nailed on His cross.)

Jesus then by giving the living Holy Spirit of Christ into all ( only after He died and rose) gives all then the new living way, this is by the blood of Jesus, and without shedding of blood here is no remission, and then no faith even for the disciples of Christ but we receive the promise of the Spirit through faith ( the faith of Christ to die for us which through the faith of Christ we believe in that righteousness of God)..



Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;


Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

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You’ve got to learn how to rightly divide the word of God. The epistles written to people who never walked with Christ for 3 years will give a different message about regeneration. Your were quoting Romans 8 yesterday as if it applied to the apostles in the upper room. According to Romans 8 no one can believe, no one can do the will of God, no one can please God, when the apostles obviously accomplished all of these things. Your claiming they accomplished all this ON THEIR OWN. No they couldn’t possibly do any of this on their own, the only way they were able to accomplish this was by the power and the words of Christ. So the epistles you keep quoting about regeneration of the Holy Spirit DON’T APPLY TO THE APOSTLES WHILE THEY WERE WITH CHRIST. Jesus specifically stated that He kept them by His power. He specifically stated that they were IN HIM.

What did Jesus do, to keep the disciples in the Fathers name, that He gave unto them the Fathers word.

Jesus wants the disciples sanctified through the truth.

Jesus says He will sanctify Himself, to sanctify the disciples through the truth.......




John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.


John 17:13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

John 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.




In Mark 4, we see Jesus tell the disciples it is given to them to know the mysteries of the Kingdom, and the disciples asked Jesus of the parable He had spoken, and Jesus has to make clear to them, by not knowing that parable, how will they know all parables?

Jesus spoke only by parables to the Jews multitudes. Only when alone Jesus explained all the parables to the disciples...



Mark 4:10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

Mark 4:33 And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it.
34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.



Jesus says after a parable, that if a man has ears to hear, then they will hear.

The disciples again ask Jesus concerning the parable, Jesus reproves them to be without understanding,...



Mark 7:16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
17 And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.
18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;




The disciples reasoned wrongly. Jesus asked why they reason that way, and why they neither perceive nor understand, and their heart yet hardened. How they had eyes but see not, and had ears but hear not, nor did they remember ( the word is taken away when we do not understand) Jesus rehearsed the miracles He did before them, and asked how is it that you do not understand....


Matthew 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Matthew 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.



Mark 8:16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread.
17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened?
18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?
19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve.
20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven.
21 And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?




Here in Matthew 16, the disciples not remembering nor understanding the miracles of the loaves, did not understand that Jesus spoke not of bread, but of being beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, then the disciples understood that Jesus meant to beware of the doctrine of the Pharisees..




Matthew 16:9 Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?
10 Neither the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?
11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.




Jesus taught the disciples how He would be delivered into men's hands, who will kill Him, and He will rise the third day after they kill Him. They understood not these sayings.

They also disputed who should be the greatest disciple. Jesus corrected them how the child received in HIs name, is receiving Him ( to be the least as a child is to receive Jesus Christ meek and lowly)...



Mark 9:31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.
32 But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.
33 And he came to Capernaum: and being in the house he asked them, What was it that ye disputed among yourselves by the way?
34 But they held their peace: for by the way they had disputed among themselves, who should be the greatest.
35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.
36 And he took a child, and set him in the midst of them: and when he had taken him in his arms, he said unto them,
37 Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me.



Next James and John want to sit on the two sides of Jesus in His glory ( Jesus Christ is the Lord God on the throne) but they needed yet to be baptized with the same baptism of Christ ( buried with Him in baptism) and the disciples were displeased with James and John.

Jesus also fulfilling finding a donkey to ride on ( He came to Jerusalem a King meek and lowly riding on a donkey)
The disciples understood not those things also, until Jesus was glorified ( then the Spirit of truth taught all things to our remembrance and the Spirit was only given when Jesus was glorified/risen)....




Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.


Mark 10:35 And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire.
36 And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you?
37 They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.
38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:
40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.
41 And when the ten heard it, they began to be much displeased with James and John.

John 12:14 And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,
15 Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.
16 These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him.




After the forsaking the disciples did from Jesus ( as the Shepherd was struck and the sheep shall flee) The disciples were left wondering and disputing what happened with Jesus.

Jesus had to call them fools and to be slow of heart, to believe all that the prophets had spoken, how Christ had to suffer those things then to enter into His glory. Jesus again expounded all the scriptures to the disciples concerning Himself..


Luke 24:21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
22 Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre;
23 And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.
24 And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.







Stephen full of faith and of the Holy Ghost and power, teaches Israel.

Now we can understand the lack of understanding the disciples of Jesus exampled. The similar non understanding was seen in the brothers of Joseph, and what was missing was the power on High that Jesus sends to the disciples after He died and rose again..




Acts 6:5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:

Acts 6:8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.

Acts 7:25 For he supposed his brethren would have understood how that God by his hand would deliver them: but they understood not.


John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Luke 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.





This is the spiritual understanding we need to be filled with ( by being filled with the Spirit believing in the rising of Christ from the dead for all including the disciples of Jesus)....


Colossians 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,



Apostle Paul witnesses to us, how we believe in the Son of God with power according to the spirit of holiness ( the disciples were holy by this be;lief) BY THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST FROM THE DEAD.

We receive then the Spirit of God to know ( to understand) what is freely given to us of God ( the disciples were unable to understand independently until that Spirit is given by Chris with power and it is only by the resurrection from the dead) which is when God gives us the Spirit not of fear, but of power and of love ( now the love of God was shed into our hearts) and the disciples had fear before this...



Romans 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

1 Corinthians 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

2 Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.


John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

BNR32FAN said:

Yeah Peter didn’t understand at that time that the Son of God must suffer and die in order to do the will of The Father. His statement there was out of compassion towards Christ and misunderstanding of the purpose of Christ’s suffering. Jesus hadn’t revealed to them the purpose of His suffering at that time. Peter wasn’t perfect after receiving the Holy Spirit either, no one is, which is why Paul rebuked him in Antioch for stumbling while the Jews were present by refraining from eating with the Gentiles.

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Peter was involved in a revelation of God, God explained that to Peter. Paul clarified this so nobody misunderstands, that the way of dissembling is not correct, ( then the Jewish believers also could conclude that God had now granted repentance to the Gentiles)...



Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

prophecy_uk said:

Apostle Paul speaks to us now, as a we ( for all live unto God)


It makes little sense to say that the writer can be cut off.


2000 years later, and on top of salvation being lost, it needs to be found first, and disputing is not a way to find it. ( especially for vanity sake)

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And yet he believed he could lose his salvation. How do we know?

Because in Hebrews 10:26 he includes himself in the admonition by his use of the word "we".
Then in verse 29 speaking of the one who has sinned willfully, and trodden underfoot the Son of God it mentions that they have been sanctified, cleansed. Couple that with verse 30 where it says the Lord will judge his people. So the one sinning willfully after they received the knowledge of the truth was sanctified and is a person of God but will but will suffer the Vengeance of our God because he has the done despite unto the Spirit of Grace.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

HIM said:

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received THE KNOWLEDGE OF TRUTH, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

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The knowledge of truth gives us faith, it does not give us law. This faith ( of Jesus Christ and by Him) makes them a perfect man, it is the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ ( to be believed in and followed in all things)...


Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:



To be filled with the knowledge of His will, in all wisdom and Spiritual understanding. That is then to walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, increasing in the knowledge of God. Strengthened with all might, according to the glorious power of the Lord, giving thanks to the Father ( through Christ) who made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light ( in the light of Christ) delivered us from the power of darkness ( the sins of satan) and translated us to the Kingdom of the dear Son, in whom we have redemption through His blood ( even the forgiveness of sins)

All is faith, law is none of faith..


Colossians 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Hammster said:

This has to do with the Jews who still thought they were under the sacrificial system. They heard the truth of the gospel. Their sacrifices were no longer valid. You cannot pull verses out of context and make them say what you want them to say.

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Yes, it is for the Hebrews, and is for all who do the same likewise, if we sin wilfully there is no more sacrifice for sins, and all scripture is for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect.


The reward of unrighteousness( sin) is death, and these it says, cannot cease from sin. They forsake the right way to love the wages of unrighteousness ( sin) ..



2 Peter 2:13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;


They promise liberty, but are servants of corruption ( sinning wilfully)

Escaping the pollutions o the world through the knowledge of Christ, they turn back ( into sin)

2 Peter 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Hammster said:

You sin willfully.

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We don’t know what any are doing unless we see for ourselves. God is the Judge. However if we are sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth; that we been sanctified by the blood of Jesus and perfected by the new covenant. Perfected by God’s laws being put in our hearts and minds. There remains no more sacrifice for sins. Only a certain fearful looking forward to judgement and fiery indignation which shall devour the adversary. For Those whom are sinning willfully. Because we have done despite unto the spirit of grace.

Hammster said:

This has to do with the Jews who still thought they were under the sacrificial system. They heard the truth of the gospel. Their sacrifices were no longer valid. You cannot pull verses out of context and make them say what you want them to say.

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Nothing in the entire book of Hebrews supports your claim

Hammster said:

You might want to actually read at least the chapter in context.

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Like was said, nothing in the entire book of Hebrews supports your claim

HIM said:

Like was said, nothing in the entire book of Hebrews supports your claim

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He did get the part about it being written to the Jews right but the verses pertain to everyone.