If the U.S. is such a free country...

Simple really:
For Profit prisons.
Incarceration companies can't make money.
Judges have taken kick backs to ensure these companies continue to get their clientele.
Draconian drug laws continue to keep them filled.
AND, this is a big one too....
a SIGNIFICANT lack of mental health supports in most communities.

renniks said:

What do you mean by " gun laws?" Simply the right to own guns?
You know in places where we can not possess guns, the gun crime rate is much higher?

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Really, typing from the UK. Any bets on gun crime rate.

Goonie said:

Really, typing from the UK. Any bets on gun crime rate.

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I'm talking about the US. The topic is the US not the UK.

DamianWarS said:

I think gun laws are related, they perhaps are not the cause but are a product of the same culture you speak of. tethered gun laws I think would tame the culture if it were done 100 years ago. Today it will cause a whole lot of angry people who don't want to give up their guns which probably is not a good combination but could eventually would help to reform the culture.

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Only "angry" people?
I thought they were "bitter" (clingers)
How tho is this state of mind determined?

pitabread said:

Singapore has some of the world's strictest gun laws. How is their gun crime rate?

(Spoilers: It's a couple orders of magnitude less than the U.S.)

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Maybe stick to the topic?
But since you brought up lovely Singapore I assume you agree with their laws

Singaporeans place a lot of importance on discipline, and corporal punishment is widely accepted. Caning is not only used to punish criminals but also as a disciplinary measure in schools, the military, and in the domestic scene. Do not be surprised to find canes sold in grocery stores. They usually cost around 50 Singapore cents and are made of thin rattan with a plastic hook at the end to serve as the handle. They are made for the sole purpose of parental caning. Make sure you respect the local culture and adhere to their strict standards of proper behavior.

Chewing gum is banned in Singapore.
Throwing out a candy wrapper on the ground will get you a fine of $300.

Homosexual relationships are banned in Singapore.
Not flushing the toilet is against the law too
Drugs are banned and they can run random drug tests on anyone. Oh and being naked in your own house is illegal in Singapore.
Sure they have strict laws. They are exactly the kind of laws I was talking about not wanting in this country.

Albion said:

...and in a number of the world's countries, people simply disappear or are summarily executed, neither of which shows up on the statistics of people who are incarcerated.

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Hands up all those that would like to see some figures to back up that claim? Everyone? OK, hands down.

Albion, some facts 'n' figures have been requested so that we can check the validity of your argument. If you'd be so kind...

Freedom is not a monolithic concept.

There are many different types of freedoms, and different nations have varying levels of accommodations for those freedoms.

For instance, if you wanted to own a firearm for self-defense, the US and the Czech Republic would have "more freedom"

If you wanted to be able to buy some cannabis to consume recreationally, Canada and the Netherlands would have "more freedom"

No country is a "libertarian utopia".

Point out any country on the map, and I can point out some dumb laws they have that restrict peoples' freedoms.


And while incarceration is definitely a violation of freedoms, incarceration rates don't tell the whole story, as there are countries that will simply execute you for behaviors they don't like rather than throw you in jail for it.

Is the US perfect? Absolutely not.

Is the US "the freest" nation on the planet, overall, I'd say no.

I think the moniker of the "leader of the free world" comes from the fact that the US is the place where a disproportionate number people seek to move to in order to pursue their dreams...as it's a market economy, that (contrary to what some people would say about draconian immigration policy) has much more lax immigration policy than a lot of other democracies and first-world countries.

Our for-profit prison systems are certainly a factor for our high incarceration rates, and that's a problem that should be addressed, but as far as the freedoms we have, I don't see it as any more or any less than other developed nations, just different.

Many on the left will reduce "freedom" to which substances they can consume and what kind of sexual exploits they can pursue, many on the right will reduce "freedom" to what kind of guns they can own and how many taxes they can avoid. Both are a narrow viewpoint.

pitabread said:

Singapore has some of the world's strictest gun laws. How is their gun crime rate?

(Spoilers: It's a couple orders of magnitude less than the U.S.)

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Eh, I don't know if that makes their approach to crime any more ethical...they're the same place that will cane you for petty vandalism and hit you with significant fines for things like littering. So everything's a trade-off. Since the topic of the thread is freedom, I don't know that citing a country that will give you a $1000 fine for spitting gum out improperly is the best example to use. (in fact, I think they even banned chewing gum for a while)

Plus, in terms of homicide rates, there are other nations that have more lax gun laws that are just as safe as the nations that many like to prop up.

For instance, Czech Republic has a homicide rate of 0.6, to put that in perspective, that's lower than Denmark, Finland, UK, France, Norway, Austria, New Zealand, Sweden, and Iceland. Yet, their gun laws are closer to ours than they are to any of the aforementioned countries.

ThatRobGuy said:

For instance, Czech Republic has a homicide rate of 0.6, to put that in perspective, that's lower than Denmark, Finland, UK, France, Norway, Austria, New Zealand, Sweden, and Iceland. Yet, their gun laws are closer to ours than they are to any of the aforementioned countries.

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I just had a look at the Czech laws re guns and they seem very tight indeed. The requirements for owning a gun and what you can own etc covers a few wiki pages: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_law_in_the_Czech_Republic

renniks said:

What do you mean by " gun laws?" Simply the right to own guns?
You know in places where we can not possess guns, the gun crime rate is much higher?

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What places would those be and are they considered developed countries? developed countries that allow guns typically have stricter measures in place, the US seems to stand out with their version of gun control.

RDKirk said:

It's hard to argue that (what you apparently consider weak) gun laws contribute to the current situation of lawlessness when gun laws were weaker--and are weaker--when and where crime is actually less.

The presence of a gun does not create disregard for human life or create covetousness of another person's property. Let's look at why people disregard life and covet the property of others.

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abstractly you're right of course, but in practice, the US hasn't been able to effectively demonstrate this absent connection. But it isn't one dimensional so guns are not the only thing that's going on here.

pitabread said:

... why is it you guys have the highest incarceration rate in the world?

And especially when it comes to a lot of the supposed freedom loving Southern states (e.g. Texas) which have higher than average incarceration rate relative to the U.S. as a whole?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate

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We have a high incarceration rate because even though we are a free society, we still have a lot of people committing crimes.

Estrid said:

Only "angry" people?
I thought they were "bitter" (clingers)
How tho is this state of mind determined?

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you can use whatever adjective you wish to describe the state of mind but it's merely a cause and effect observation I'm stating despite my flippantness.

Bradskii said:

I just had a look at the Czech laws re guns and they seem very tight indeed. The requirements for owning a gun and what you can own etc covers a few wiki pages: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_law_in_the_Czech_Republic

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Inasmuch as this is a national law, it's looser and more straightforward than many US states + the US federal laws.

DamianWarS said:

abstractly you're right of course, but in practice, the US hasn't been able to effectively demonstrate this absent connection. But it isn't one dimensional so guns are not the only thing that's going on here.

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I'd say guns are the least thing going on here. Americans are near the top in virtually all methods of killing one another. The real question is: Why do Americans place such little value on human life? Even many of those who are too timid to kill anyone themselves gleefully encourage others to do it for them.

Ken-1122 said:

We have a high incarceration rate because even though we are a free society, we still have a lot of people committing crimes.

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Of course another way to look at it is that we over crimalize things. Just federally speaking, not even talking about the states, there are over 4,500 crimes listed in the USC, and that doesn't even start to look at all the regulations with criminal penalties.

RDKirk said:

Inasmuch as this is a national law, it's looser and more straightforward than many US states + the US federal laws.

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Would you object to having those laws?

DamianWarS said:

What places would those be and are they considered developed countries? developed countries that allow guns typically have stricter measures in place, the US seems to stand out with their version of gun control.

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Again, I'm talking about the US. The cities with the strictest gun control have the most gun crime. And you didn't answer my question. When you say Gun laws are you talking about merely the right to possess guns or something else?