will the anti-christ be Jewish ?

.;

2nd April 2003 at 06:51 PM ephod said this in Post #21



S Walch

No we are not in the tribulation, but I do believe it is very near. One false teaching that is a part of the standard prophecy interpreters is that the tribulation is 7 years long. Proper study of the Word shows the truth that the tribulation is 3 1/2 years long.

Modern dispensationalism and it favorite marketing deception---the pre-tribulation rapture---has also given us the 7 year tribulation. I call it a marketing deception since it's cornerstone is to make money.

Consider that sucess of Hal Lindsey (ie. The Late Great Planet Earth and his other best sellers). Consider the millions of books the Left Behind series has sold. Not even mentioning the movies that are included in the deception. Look at how many of the mega-churches spew out this prophetic garbage and how many people believe these false teachers and their false gospels.

ephod




 

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Why 3 1/2?

I love revelation - and I study it and I like to hear different peoples opinions about it.

Could you give me your reasons for the 3 1/2 years tribulation.

2nd April 2003 at 12:33 PM ephod said this in Post #19

Brain Damage

Rev 13 tells us one of the heads of the beast recieves a fatal wound (ie, the one that heals)--the fatal will in all probability happen in the next 90 days.

ephod

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ephod are you talking about iraq ?

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3rd April 2003 at 10:57 AM ephod said this in Post #24


First off I would like to say that the 7 year tribulation could only be supported by one verse in the Bible, and doctrine can not be built on one verse.

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One could say the same thing about Pre-Millennialism in general.

Idzerd

Daniel 9:27

27 He will make a treaty with the people for a period of one set of seven, but after half this time, he will put an end to the sacrifices and offerings. Then as a climax to all his terrible deeds, he will set up a sacrilegious object that causes desecration, until the end that has been decreed is poured out on this defiler.


Tell me how that is misnterperatating it - 1 group of 7
7 what?
7 days?
7 months?
Or 7 years?

I take it people get that the tribulation will be only 3 1/2 years due to the line but after half this time, he will put an end to the sacrifices and offerings

Where else in the bible does it say anything about the tribulation being only 3 1/2 years?

I take it that people get the 3 1/2 tribulation from this passage:

Revelation 11:1-2

1Then I was given a measuring stick, and I was told, "Go and measure the Temple of God and the altar, and count the number of worshipers.
2B ut do not measure the outer courtyard, for it has been turned over to the nations. They will trample the holy city for 42 months.

Then, if we take verse 3:
3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will be clothed in sackcloth and will prophesy during those 1,260 days.

1260 days= 3 1/2 years. But it does not say that THAT would be the end of the tribulation.

Because in Revelation:12 5-6
5 She gave birth to a boy who was to rule all nations with an iron rod. And the child was snatched away from the dragon and was caught up to God and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where God had prepared a place to give her care for 1,260 days.

Which is another 3 1/2 years whcih if my calculations are correct then that means that is 7 years.

Is that not also how people get that there will be 7 years tribulation?

So, then it's not just that verse in Daniel that people get it from - They also calcuate it from the 1260 x 2 days mentioned in revelation.

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Clarence Larkin taught the pre-tribulation rapture before 1909, as did many other Bible believers.

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My gut feeling is that we are watching the vision of Daniel, of the destruction of the ram (Iraq) by the goat (greece/western civilization); as this war spins. And the beast that was (one nation under God) and is not, and yet is; we are clearly told that the antichrist (or final kingdom) shall come from that nation===that stamps the ram; after it's horn (first king/ founding father of this nation and all it pertains) is broken. Four stand up for it; but it is not as the former, here is the changing of the power in America.
Notice that the antichrist kingdom= cannot be challenged; who can make war with the beast? Fire comes out of the sky/ it is not difficult to see that this is military power.
And the seven mountains are not past to present, IMHO: because we see that the beast (combination of power) comes up out of the sea ([people). And the deadly wound ((could)) be the attack upon America. But it doesn't fit. I still believe the middle eastern muslem fanatics will bring forth the Judas/antichrist. And maybe his future will be ruling the United States. And that is when the tribulation shall begin. It ills me to write this, that is why I have not been here.
But as I watch the troops crossing the Euphrates river, which is marked in Revelation as a vial and a trumpet to watch for; I just feel like crying.
The measuring of the temple of God, may not even be literal; we are the temple of God. Maybe the saints shall be trampled 42 months, and this is in a spiritual reference. (Jesus spoke of the temple that way)
Anyway, these are mixed thoughts; I am just bummed. Having studied revelation and wondering about it; and then witnessing it, (yes we are) leaves me with no joy. These words make sense to me, and I don't know why. I hope there are others who may feel this way, I can't be the only one.
Thanks, Wildfire

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3rd April 2003 at 09:43 PM ephod said this in Post #29


It is funny that post-trib worked for 1800+ years!!!!!

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Seeing as what is known today as Amillennialism[sup]*[/sup] is technically "post-trib" has been the dominant Eschatology through-out church history, you are "technically" correct with that statement.

However, it is a bit misleading as it seems that one might suspect you are suggesting that Post-Tribulational Pre-Millennialism "has worked for 1800+years".

While there were members (some notable) of the early church who were Post-Tribulational Pre-Millennial, Pre-Millennialism in general was declared to be heresy by the early church (before the centralized power of the Roman assembly).

The very brief "hey-day" of Premillennialism aside, it was what is known today as Amillennialism[sup]*[/sup] that has been the dominant Eschatology for the past 1800+ years.

Idzerd

[sup]*[/sup]The name "amillennial" was coined only about 100 years ago. Before then it was simply known as "post-millennialism". This should not be confused with what today is known as "Postmillennialism". Both postitions are similar in that they are both believe in a "post" millennial return of Christ. After that similar point, both postitions differ on several other points.

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It seems to me Ephod, that you are so strong in your belief for the post-tribulation rapture that you unwilling to accept that maybe pre-trib and even mid-trib raptures might be the correct version.

The best thing we can do is wait and see what happens.

Yes, the tribulation may be vast approching - but whether we go through it or not we will have to find out.

4th April 2003 at 10:48 AM ephod said this in Post #33

Idzerd

I was making a technical point, and indeed you agree I made that point correctly.

My whole focus is to wake people up to the fact that the pre-trib rapture is simply and totally a deception that has engulfed a great majority of the church.

As the tribulation approaches (listen to the hoof beats!!!) the timing of the gathering (ie. rapture) of God's people is of total importance. I have chosen not to get involved in endless discussions of the rapture timing, but to be totally bold in simply stating the pre-trib fib is just that---a lie---authored by the father of lies!!!! It is a false gospel...............

ephod

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Yes, I agree.

The whole idea of Pre-Tribulational Rapture began with an occultish vision of Margaret McDonald in 1830.

"Historic" Pre-Millennialism, which was the view of some in the early church and Dispensational Pre-Millennialism, which was contrived in the early 1800's, are quite different.

I will note, thought, that most people who claim to believe in "Historic" Pre-Millennialism, as opposed to the Dispensational Pre-Trib variety, are not really adherents of "Historic" Pre-Millennialism at all.

For "Historic" Premillennialism as taught by some in the early church (such as Martyr and Irenaeus) believed in a "subterranean Hades" as an interlude between this life and heaven. The saints had to wait in this "subterranean Hades" until the return of Christ. Only then could they be in the presence of God.

"Historic" Premillennialism was actually a theory which was taken from non-christian Jewish writings (Irenaeus cited the "Papias of Hierapolis" for his Pre-millennial theory) and not the Bible.

In fact, the Historic Pre-Millennialists agreed with the amillennialists (post-millennial) on the interpretation of Rev 20. In other words, the "Historic" Pre-Millennialists did not get there "Millennial Kingdom" from Rev 20. They got it from the non-Christian Jewish writings.

Idzerd

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Yeah, but saying that everyone who preaches about the pre-tribulation rapture is a false prophet is a very judgemental view - which we as christians are told NOT to do.

4th April 2003 at 11:38 AM S Walch said this in Post #37

Yeah, but saying that everyone who preaches about the pre-tribulation rapture is a false prophet is a very judgemental view - which we as christians are told NOT to do.

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For clarification, what are christians "told NOT to do"?

Judge?

Judge other Christians?

or

Tell people they are false prophets?

Idzerd

well - Judge.

To say all preachers that tell people about the pre-tribulation rapture are ALL false prophets is like putting them in one big judge bag.

4th April 2003 at 12:00 PM S Walch said this in Post #39

well - Judge.

To say all preachers that tell people about the pre-tribulation rapture are ALL false prophets is like putting them in one big judge bag.

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Where does the Bible say we are not to judge?

(and I agree that we shouldn't lump ALL who teach pre-tribulational rapture as false prophets. I have a few good friends who are devoutly pre-mil and they are, in every respect, faithful christians. However, that does not mean that they are teaching a false doctrine any more than I would be teaching a false doctrine if I were wrong.)

Idzerd