Who Justifieth the Ungodly

Here's my 2 cents on the matter. There are so many concepts here that are so very important to understand concerning the nature of the atonement and the role a person's free moral agency plays as to his justification before God. The way I see, we need to steer clear of extremes. We should not say that man plays absolutely no role in his justification before God (as consistent 5-point Calvinists claim), or that he can merit that justification in any sense of the word (as some Arminians do). And due to the complexity of attempting to explain just precisely what that middle ground looks like, frustrations and differing opinions are likely to occur. Hopefully we can all just relax a little and assume that in the end we are all on the same team here..."Team Jesus."

With that said, I would like to attempt to shed some more light on the issue from my perspective. In fact, just recently I have been compiling some notes to address the very issue at hand, and am planning on posting them on my thread when I can better organize my thoughts and present them in a more understandable manner (that's always the challenge , isn't it?). But in light of the lively discussion I've seen here, I've decided to chime in just a little and share the conclusion that I arrived at.

The big question here concerning justification appears to be, 'what is the relationship between a person's faith (it's role, necessity, value) and the substitutionary atoning work of Christ?' In a nutshell :

Only Christ's substitutionary work on the cross qualifies as the grounds for our acceptance before God. Trusting in this precious truth is the only means or channel for it affects to become efficacious, that is, effective, helpful, or beneficial in a person's life.

Rapture Bound said:

Here's my 2 cents on the matter. There are so many concepts here that are so very important to understand concerning the nature of the atonement and the role a person's free moral agency plays as to his justification before God. The way I see, we need to steer clear of extremes. We should not say that man plays absolutely no role in his justification before God (as consistent 5-point Calvinists claim), or that he can merit that justification in any sense of the word (as some Arminians do). And due to the complexity of attempting to explain just precisely what that middle ground looks like, frustrations and differing opinions are likely to occur. Hopefully we can all just relax a little and assume that in the end we are all on the same team here..."Team Jesus."

With that said, I would like to attempt to shed some more light on the issue from my perspective. In fact, just recently I have been compiling some notes to address the very issue at hand, and am planning on posting them on my thread when I can better organize my thoughts and present them in a more understandable manner (that's always the challenge , isn't it?). But in light of the lively discussion I've seen here, I've decided to chime in just a little and share the conclusion that I arrived at.

The big question here concerning justification appears to be, 'what is the relationship between a person's faith (it's role, necessity, value) and the substitutionary atoning work of Christ?' In a nutshell :

Only Christ's substitutionary work on the cross qualifies as the grounds for our acceptance before God.

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Trusting in this precious truth is the only means or channel for it affects to become efficacious, that is, effective, helpful, or beneficial in a person's life.

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Good conclusion. . .minor difference:

"Trusting in this precious (truth of the) act is the only means. . ."

prophecy_uk said:

Brightfame: "Rom 5:1
1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Let me start off by saying, what Paul does not mean here, and that is, Paul is not teaching that one is Justified [before God] by or because of their act of Faith, since #1, Faith is a noun in this verse..and if we use the verb believing, then we are saying that God Justified because of something I did, which was believe..Thats works.."

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Respectfully, I thought about how you could also add to your articulation, that faith comes by hearing and understanding God's Word.

We access the grace of God through faith, and stand by that same faith,

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And it helps to understand His Grace so that our faith has a foundation that stands firm against the accuser of mankind. For example, Jesus said, "The spirit of man is willing but the flesh is weak" which condemns sin in the flesh and not in the man's spirit. If we truly believe his reasoning for excusing us (the flesh is weak), then we are obligated to not judge others hypocritically, and to carry our own cross as he did. Otherwise if we don't accept his reasoning for excusing us, then we accuse ourselves of sinning willfully. The pure of heart project their purity onto others, and the defiled project their corruption onto others. God will judge us by what measure we use to judge others.

Romans 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Clare73 replied, "Trusting in this precious (truth of the) act is the only means. . ."

Agreed - when I said "this precious truth", it was in reference to Christ's substitutionary atoning work.

The grounds for faith being acceptable to God are simple, they need no discussion, they are, first how sin and disobedience receive destruction, that is witnessed from Adam and Eve, down to Israel and their demise through evil hearts and actions only.

Now Jesus in the Gospel, and He plants the good seed, choosing His anointed, enabling them to be faithful, by the words given to them that are Spirit and life, and by showing them the way of His good actions, and laying of His life down, they follow this way by receiving power from on High ( as Jesus was then on High) and they also walking on the narrow path few find, are surrounded by the vain talkers, who talk some other gospel. The flesh is weak, and the spirit was willing, but the Spirit was given to make the flesh strong.

Brightfame52 said:

So, so far in exposing the False teaching that the elect are saved or Justified because of their act of Faith or believing..we see that contradicts other clear teaching of paul that #1, the elect are Justified by the blood of Jesus christ Rom 5:9

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Yes, they are justified by faith in his blood (Romans 3:25).

9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

That is when He bore their sins as prophesied Isa 53:11

11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. [shed His blood]

2ndly we find that paul teaches that

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by the righteous act of one [ Jesus christ] Justification came upon all men..not offered, not made available, but Sovereignly came upon them .Rom 5:18

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And in context of Romans 4:3-5, Romans 5:12-19, that would be all men in (born of) Adam and all men in (born of) Christ.

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

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Now show me in this verse where it says that Justification of life came upon all men because they had faith ?

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Justification comes upon all men in Christ by faith apart from works (Romans 3:28; Romans 4:1-6).

Thirdly, Paul teaches in vs 19 of Romans 5:19 that by the obedience of one, many shall be made righteous ..
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

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Now where does it say that by their faith shall many be made righteous ?

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Righteousness by faith for all those in Christ would be in Romans 4:3, Romans 4:5; Romans 4:13, Romans 10:6; Galatians 2:16, Galatians 3:11; Philippians 3:9; Hebrews 11:7.

Paul says by the obedience of one many shall be made righteous Now who is that one ?

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By the obedience of the second Adam (Christ), those in Christ by faith will be made righteous in justification (Romans 4:5).

Brightfame52 said:

In any case, you have been witnessed to concerning the truth.

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That would be in post #28 above.

Clare73 said:

Yes, they are justified by faith in his blood (Romans 3:25).
And in context of Romans 4:3-5, Romans 5:12-19, that would be all men in (born of) Adam and all men in (born of) Christ.

Justification comes upon all men in Christ by faith apart from works (Romans 3:28; Romans 4:1-6).
Righteousness by faith for all those in Christ would be in Romans 4:3, Romans 4:5; Romans 4:13, Romans 10:6; Galatians 2:16, Galatians 3:11; Philippians 3:9; Hebrews 11:7.

By the obedience of the second Adam (Christ), those in Christ by faith will be made righteous in justification (Romans 4:5).

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If you are going to mention us being justified by faith in the blood of Christ, then you need to show how the blood of Christ through the Spirit purges our conscience from the dead, ( works) to serving the living God ( in living works of God)..


Hebrews 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Brightfame52 said:

Paul then goes on to write that the elect are Justified by Grace Titus 3:7

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

And this is freely, without cause of us, Just being of the election of grace. Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption [blood] that is in Christ Jesus:

The word freely here is the greek word:

dōrean: which means:

freely, undeservedly and is translated without a cause as here:

Jn 15:25

25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

Redemption is through His blood, of which His Grace operates towards the elect.

Eph 1:7

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

In light of these scriptures, we continue to expose the false teaching which would take the crown from Jesus head and place it upon the head of man.

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Speaking of crowns...


2 Timothy 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Brightfame: "Redemption is through His blood, of which His Grace operates towards the elect."





We are beseeched not to receive the grace of God in vain ( has to be purpose or it is nothing, and peoples words an themselves, are then NOTHING until they are as witnessed, ALSO ENLARGED)..


2 Corinthians 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:
4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
5 In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings;
6 By pureness, by knowledge, by long suffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,
7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,
8 By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true;
9 As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed;
10 As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.
11 O ye Corinthians, our mouth is open unto you, our heart is enlarged.
12 Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels.
13 Now for a recompence in the same, (I speak as unto my children,) be ye also enlarged.

prophecy_uk said:

If you are going to mention us being justified by faith in the blood of Christ, then you need to show how the blood of Christ through the Spirit purges our conscience from the dead, ( works) to serving the living God ( in living works of God)..

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The Spirit himself through our faith in the blood purges our conscience. . .
No faith. . .no purging.

Hebrews 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

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Brightfame52 said:

Paul then goes on to write that the elect are Justified by Grace Titus 3:7

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

And this is freely, without cause of us, Just being of the election of grace. Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption [blood] that is in Christ Jesus:

The word freely here is the greek word:

dōrean: which means:

freely, undeservedly and is translated without a cause as here:

Jn 15:25

25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

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Redemption is through His blood, of which His Grace operates towards the elect. Eph 1:7

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"By grace through faith. . ." (Ephesians 2:8-9)

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

In light of these scriptures, we continue to expose the false teaching which would take the crown from Jesus head and place it upon the head of man.

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Brightfame52 said:

Who Justifieth the Ungodly

Rom 4:5

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 5:6

For when we [The elect] were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

These verses tells us something about the elect ! First that by nature we are ungodly, children of wrath as others .Eph 2:3

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Amen being children of wrath by nature as others is just another way of saying, that we were ungodly..

But one of the Great Gospel doctrines is described in Rom 4:5 is that God justifieth the ungodly..

Now , get this, The elect are Justified before God. by the obedience and righteousness of Jesus christ [Rom 5: 18-19] while we are dead in

trespasses and sins, while we are by nature children of wrath even as others, and while by lifestyle, ungodly. While we the elect are in this very sinful condition, that we are Justified by Jesus Christ blood and clothed in His imputed righteousness, even though we dont know it at the Time, but God knows it , because He is the one who did it.

Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

You see, most religious teachers today think that Rom 8 :33 applies to post conversion, but it also applies to pre conversion, for God Justifieth the ungodly, before they are converted..

Thats why its of grace Titus 3:7

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Its by grace because of the sinful condition we are in by nature when we are Justified before God.

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I bet satanists believe in Jesus Christ. I mean if they believe in satan why wouldn’t they? Do you think they’re saved?

Brightfame52 said:

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

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Yeah he says the same thing in Colossians 1:21-22 but in this particular case he gave a stipulation in verse 23.

“And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:21-23‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

See they are “now reconciled” because they are firmly in the faith. And He will “present them before Him holy and blameless without reproach if they remain firmly in the faith”.

Clare73 said:

"By grace through faith. . ." (Ephesians 2:8-9)

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You left out again all that is told, ( as all that is told is about Christ)

Man being dead, is quickened by Christ ( risen from the dead) by grace of Christ, for by grace are we saved through faith, not of ourselves, faith is the gift of God, created us in Christ Jesus..



Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Justified by believing, unjustified by not believing..




Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.




Brightfame: "reconciliation and Justification are of the same sort, acceptance with God in Favor, and yet this occurred while we were sinners, before we believed, how ? by the death of His Son."





It is still justification by the faith of Christ ( without faith it is impossible to please Him) so God rewards those ( with knowing Him/eternal life) who ( in belief) dilligently seek Him..


Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.