post-Trib, Pre-mill RAPTURE

BobRyan · Oct 10, 2021

ewq1938 said:
The second resurrection is a resurrection to damnation/judgement

So far that is the one point where we all agree apparently. They are resurrected - and Satan has them to get them to surround the city - where they are then judged and consumed in the lake of fire.

ewq1938 said:
No, we don't agree.

A. two resurrections -- agreed.

B. Second resurrection is for everyone who will be judged and condemned and cast into the lake of fire.... agreed.

BobRyan · Oct 10, 2021

ewq1938 said:
The fire from heaven is not related to the LOF.

Yes it is - it adds detail in vs 14-15 about the fire from God in vs 7-10 that "consumes the wicked" (to quote the text).

ewq1938 · Oct 10, 2021

BobRyan said:
So far that is the one point where we all agree apparently. They are resurrected - and Satan has them to get them to surround the city - where they are then judged and consumed in the lake of fire.

No, satan is in the LOF when the unsaved dead resurrect. The judging of the unsaved does not take place at Jerusalem, it's not even done on the Earth. You have the whole timeline mixed up.

Here's the complete and accurate timeline:

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The dead will live again after the thousand years is finished but it doesn't say it happens immediately. Some events must happen before that. Namely, the living unsaved mortals will have to die so they can be resurrected with all the others who had already died.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

These people were the ones being ruled over by a rod of iron. That reign is mentioned in verse 4 and in the previous chapter.

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

The camp of the saints is where the saints lived during the 1000 years and they are there at this time. The fire kills the last of the unsaved mortals. The second resurrection has not yet occurred.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

satan is in the LOF before the last resurrection happens.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

The judging happens at this throne and we can clearly see heaven and the Earth are not in this place. We don't know where the throne and judging is being done but it's not in heaven nor on the Earth.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

In order to be standing here for judgment, they had to have been resurrected which happened just before this.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

These are various places where the dead come from.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

And this is the punishment, the second death and lake of fire.

Moving the resurrection upwards in time is an error. There is only one last resurrection and it doesn't happen in satan's little season. Satan is in the LOF before any of the unsaved are resurrected.

ewq1938 · Oct 10, 2021

BobRyan said:
Yes it is - it adds detail in vs 14-15 about the fire from God in vs 7-10 that "consumes the wicked" (to quote the text).

Incorrect. People are cast into the LOF, not the LOF raining down upon people (who were mortal at the time). Revelation 20 is in chronological order showing the burning of mortals at Jerusalem happens BEFORE the GWTJ and the LOF.

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

That happens first^^^^^

This happens after:

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Judgment Before the Great White Throne
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Nothing comes down out of heaven here plus this isn't happening on the Earth for rain of fire to come down outside of Jerusalem.

BobRyan · Oct 10, 2021

ewq1938 said:
This happens after: .

The details added in vs 11-15 don't happen AFTER the summary statement that they are explaining and adding to in vs 7-10. That is how summary then details-added styles of writing work as already pointed out in Gen 1-2 as noted here

BobRyan said:
As I have stated repeatedly - vs 7-10 is a summary statement of the resurrected wicked surrounding the city of the saints and then destroyed by fire.

Vs 11-15 adds detail - including the fact that they are judged before being cast into that lake of fire.

-----

Summary ... then details added.

Same thing in Gen 1:1 - God creates everything.
Gen 1:3 - through Gen 2:3 details added: God creates Earth and all life on Earth in 7 days.
Gen 2:4 through the end of the chapter -- details added. Marriage, Adam created first, Man formed from the dust of the ground, Tree of knowledge of good and evil, Marriage etc.

The Bible starts with that form of writing and John is still using it in Rev 20.

BobRyan · Oct 10, 2021

ewq1938 said:
No, satan is in the LOF when the unsaved dead resurrect.

No he is in the desolate earth until the 1000 years are completed.

When they complete - he is released and the second resurrection takes place.

They happen at the same which then allows satan to organize the resurrected lost humans to surround the camp of the saints - at which point the judgment and the lake of fire event take place in Rev 20 .

The judging of the unsaved takes place at the holy city - which is not the current earthly Jerusalem - it is the Holy City that comes down out of heaven, and it has the saints in it - who have been in heaven for 1000 years with Christ.

Jamdoc · Oct 10, 2021

ewq1938 said:
You missed the point. The second resurrection is a resurrection to damnation/judgement so they resurrected resurrected and then judged.

Question, do you agree that there will be both righteous and unrighteous in the 2nd resurrection or only unrighteous.

I equate the second resurrection to John 5:28-29, while the first resurrection is John 5:24-25
the first being just for those who believe in Him and hear His voice.. the second for all that are in the grave.
with the second having some who will be in the book of life but missed the first resurrection, but most will be going to damnation.

ewq1938 · Oct 10, 2021

BobRyan said:
The details added in vs 11-15 don't happen AFTER the summary statement that they are explaining and adding to in vs 7-10. That is how summary then details-added styles of writing work as already pointed out in Gen 1-2 as noted here

There are no "summary statements" in Revelation 20.

ewq1938 · Oct 10, 2021

BobRyan said:
No he is in the desolate earth until the 1000 years are completed.

The Earth is not desolate during the thousand years nor is satan there. He is in a pit and is imprisoned.

When they complete - he is released and the second resurrection takes place.

The second resurrection does not take place at that time according to Revelation 20.

They happen at the same which then allows satan to organize the resurrected lost humans to surround the camp of the saints - at which point the judgment and the lake of fire event take place in Rev 20 .

They are not resurrected humans. They are living humans who will die for the first time at Jerusalem and they will have ONE resurrection when all the unsaved resurrect at the timeframe of the GWTJ. The text shows that, but doesn't show your version.

The judging of the unsaved takes place at the holy city

No, that is not shown in any part of Revelation 20.

- which is not the current earthly Jerusalem

That's wrong too. Satan's army surrounds old Jerusalem. New Jerusalem is still in heaven until the NHNE is seen by John in Revelation 21.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

This proves the Jerusalem in Revelation 20 is the old one.

Spiritual Jew · Oct 11, 2021

Jamdoc said:
Question, do you agree that there will be both righteous and unrighteous in the 2nd resurrection or only unrighteous.

I equate the second resurrection to John 5:28-29, while the first resurrection is John 5:24-25
the first being just for those who believe in Him and hear His voice.. the second for all that are in the grave.
with the second having some who will be in the book of life but missed the first resurrection, but most will be going to damnation.

John 5:24-25 is not even about the bodily resurrection of the dead. Only John 5:28-29 is about the bodily resurrection of the dead. Compare these passages:

John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

Ephesians 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

Can you see in the Ephesians 2 passage that Paul was talking about people being saved and made spiritually alive in Christ who were formerly dead in transgressions and sins? That is what John 5:24-25 is about as well. Notice how Jesus said "a time is coming and has now come...". That means He was talking about something that was already happening at the time and would be an ongoing thing, which describes people getting spiritually saved on an ongoing basis. In John 5:24-25, Jesus was talking about crossing over from being spiritually dead in sins to being made spiritually alive in Christ, just like Paul wrote about in Ephesians 2.

I will say this, though. John 5:24-25 describes the way in which people have part in the first resurrection. But, it's in a spiritual sense, not in a bodily sense. But, the first resurrection itself was Christ's bodily resurrection and we all have part in that spiritually when we become saved and go from being spiritually dead in our sins to spiritually alive in Christ.

Acts 26:23 ...that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

Jamdoc · Oct 11, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
John 5:24-25 is not even about the bodily resurrection of the dead. Only John 5:28-29 is about the bodily resurrection of the dead. Compare these passages:

John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

Ephesians 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

Can you see in the Ephesians 2 passage that Paul was talking about people being saved and made spiritually alive in Christ who were formerly dead in transgressions and sins? That is what John 5:24-25 is about as well. Notice how Jesus said "a time is coming and has now come...". That means He was talking about something that was already happening at the time and would be an ongoing thing, which describes people getting spiritually saved on an ongoing basis. In John 5:24-25, Jesus was talking about crossing over from being spiritually dead in sins to being made spiritually alive in Christ, just like Paul wrote about in Ephesians 2.

I will say this, though. John 5:24-25 describes the way in which people have part in the first resurrection. But, it's in a spiritual sense, not in a bodily sense. But, the first resurrection itself was Christ's bodily resurrection and we all have part in that spiritually when we become saved and go from being spiritually dead in our sins to spiritually alive in Christ.

Acts 26:23 ...that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

I don't believe the bible is more abstract than a Jackson Pollock painting so I'll just disagree.

Spiritual Jew · Oct 12, 2021

Jamdoc said:
I don't believe the bible is more abstract than a Jackson Pollock painting so I'll just disagree.

What is abstract about going from being spiritually dead in sins to spiritually alive in Christ?

John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death.

Do you think that 1 John 3:14 is referring to the bodily resurrection of the dead, too?

BobRyan · Oct 22, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
John 5:24-25 is not even about the bodily resurrection of the dead. Only John 5:28-29 is about the bodily resurrection of the dead. Compare these passages:

John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

Ephesians 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

Can you see in the Ephesians 2 passage that Paul was talking about people being saved and made spiritually alive in Christ who were formerly dead in transgressions and sins? That is what John 5:24-25 is about as well. Notice how Jesus said "a time is coming and has now come...". That means He was talking about something that was already happening at the time and would be an ongoing thing, which describes people getting spiritually saved on an ongoing basis. In John 5:24-25, Jesus was talking about crossing over from being spiritually dead in sins to being made spiritually alive in Christ, just like Paul wrote about in Ephesians 2.

I will say this, though. John 5:24-25 describes the way in which people have part in the first resurrection. But, it's in a spiritual sense, not in a bodily sense. But, the first resurrection itself was Christ's bodily resurrection and we all have part in that spiritually when we become saved and go from being spiritually dead in our sins to spiritually alive in Christ.

Acts 26:23 ...that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

Agreed. Two literal resurrections.

What the Bible calls "The first resurrection" in Rev 20:3-5 happens at the Rev 19 appearing of Christ where the saints are raptured 1 Thess 4:13-18 and "the rest were killed" Rev 19.

The second resurrection happens "after the 1000 years are completed" according to Rev 19 and at that time the wicked will surround the camp of the saints, experience the great white throne judgment of Rev 19 and be cast into the lake of fire.

Yosoyguapo · Oct 23, 2021

BobRyan said:
TWO definitions for "second coming"
1. Jesus "comes again" John 14:1-3 at His "appearing" to rapture the saints to heaven.

2. Jesus "comes to Earth to reign" - in Rev 21 (and is implied in portions of Rev 20 after the 1000 years)

One flawed definition for second coming
1. Jesus comes to rule over sinners and saints for a few years.

1000 year millennium

Only Rev 20 contains explicit reference to the future 1000 year millennium AND contains a continuation of the events discussed in Rev 19 - at Christ's appearing in the sky with the armies of heaven.

==========================================

In Rev 19 and 20 we can see that the appearing of Christ, resurrection of the saints, destruction of the wicked - takes place pre-mill.

In 1 Thess 4:13-18 we see that at the appearing of Christ - the saints are raptured - to heaven.

In John 13:36 Simon Peter *said to Him, “Lord, where are You going?” Jesus answered, “Where I am going, you cannot follow Me now; but you will follow later.”

In John 14:1-3 we see that Jesus "comes gain" to take the saints to His Father's house.
“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many rooms; if that were not so, I would have told you, because I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will take you to Myself, so that where I am, there you also will be

John 17:11 I am no longer going to be in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, so that they may be one just as We are.

24 Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

Post-Trib Rapture

Matt 24
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

2 Thess 2:1 Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit, or a message, or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 No one is to deceive you in any way! For it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction

There is no rapture to heaven.
John 3:13 No one except Jesus has ascended to heaven.

This was an editorial comment written by John many decades after Jesus crucifixion and the death of most of the Apostles of Christ.

One point regarding John 14:1-3...No where in the bible is heaven ever referred to as ''My Father's House''. All references to My Fathers house are the Temple in Jerusalem. [see also Matt. 21:13, John 2:16].

[LGV] John 14:1-3 “Do not let your hearts *221 be troubled. You trust unto God; trust also unto Me. 2 There are many chambers *222 in the House of My Father, *223 otherwise I [would have] told you. I am going to make room for you. *224 3 And if I should leave and make room for you, I am coming again and I will gather you to Myself, so that you may also be where I am. *225 4 And where I am going you have observed, and the path you have observed.”*226

*221 “Heart” is singular in the Greek, however the pronoun “your” is plural, referring to the eleven disciples, not only to Peter.
*222 Solomon’s Temple included three-story “side chambers” all around the Temple structure, on the south, west, and north. These were temporarily dwellings for the Levites during their rotation duties at the Temple (1 Kings 6:5-10; 1 Chron. 9:24-33; 1 Chron. 23:27-28; 1 Chron. 28:11-13). After the Temple’s destruction by Nebuchadnezzar, the rebuilt Temple also had these chambers for the priests and Levites (Ezra 8:29). Yet the Kingdom Temple will also have these many chambers in three stories (Ezek. 41:6-11,26; Ezek. 42:1-14). These three-story chambers of the Kingdom Temple are what Jesus referred to. The disciples will have a place in these chambers (Matt. 19:28; Luke 22:28-30).
*223 Jesus previously referred to the Temple in Jerusalem as the House of His Father (John 2:16; Luke 2:49).
*224 Jesus gave a series of parables concerning God’s “Vineyard” in Matthew 20-21, borrowed from Isaiah 5. The last parable showed that the current Levitical priesthood was to be overthrown and evicted from God’s house, and replaced in the Kingdom by a new Temple priesthood of Christ’s faithful followers. See also: Rev. 3:12; Rev. 20:4-6. 225 John 17:24, referring to Christ’s reigning as King on Mount Zion (Psalm 2).
*226 The disciples were familiar with Psalm 110:1 which explains where the Messiah must go, to be seated at the Father’s side until His enemies were to be made His footstool. They were also familiar with Psalm 22, which describes the Messiah’s suffering crucifixion (vss. 1-21) prior to His reign (vss. 22-31). The path to the Father’s right hand in the sky went through Calvary. But as is apparent from the following discussion, the disciples had not yet connected the dots, or fully understood when Jesus previously told them that He must be crucified (Luke 24:6-7; John 12:23-32). Then He must go alone with His own blood into the Holy of Holies in the Temple in the sky to perform His high-priestly service. Only our High Priest according to the order of Melchizedek was allowed to go into the sky in person (Heb. 8:1-6; Heb. 9:7,23-28).

Yosoyguapo · Oct 23, 2021

BobRyan said:
TWO definitions for "second coming"
1. Jesus "comes again" John 14:1-3 at His "appearing" to rapture the saints to heaven.

2. Jesus "comes to Earth to reign" - in Rev 21 (and is implied in portions of Rev 20 after the 1000 years)

One flawed definition for second coming
1. Jesus comes to rule over sinners and saints for a few years.

1000 year millennium

Only Rev 20 contains explicit reference to the future 1000 year millennium AND contains a continuation of the events discussed in Rev 19 - at Christ's appearing in the sky with the armies of heaven.

==========================================

In Rev 19 and 20 we can see that the appearing of Christ, resurrection of the saints, destruction of the wicked - takes place pre-mill.

In 1 Thess 4:13-18 we see that at the appearing of Christ - the saints are raptured - to heaven.

In John 13:36 Simon Peter *said to Him, “Lord, where are You going?” Jesus answered, “Where I am going, you cannot follow Me now; but you will follow later.”

In John 14:1-3 we see that Jesus "comes gain" to take the saints to His Father's house.
“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many rooms; if that were not so, I would have told you, because I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will take you to Myself, so that where I am, there you also will be

John 17:11 I am no longer going to be in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, so that they may be one just as We are.

24 Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

Post-Trib Rapture

Matt 24
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

2 Thess 2:1 Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit, or a message, or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 No one is to deceive you in any way! For it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction

Notes and Bible translation from Tim Warner 4windsfellowships.net
[LGV] 2 Thess 2:1

1 Yet we plead with you, brothers, concerning the arrival of our Master, Jesus Anointed and the entire gathering of us together14 with Him, 2 not to be so quickly unsettled from understanding,15 nor to be alarmed16 (not by a breath, nor by a message, nor by a letter as if by us17) to the effect that the Day of the Anointed has become imminent.18 3 None of you should succumb to anyone’s deception through any method. 19 Because, should not the apostasy come first20 and the revealing of the Man of Sin,21 the Son of Destruction, the one opposing and self-exalting above every named god or worshipped thing, so also as a god to appoint himself into the Temple of God, portraying himself that he is a god?

14 ἐπισυναγωγῆς the gathering of the entire elect at the resurrection and return of Jesus (Heb. 10:25 cf. Matt. 24:29-31, Heb. 12:22-23)
15 From their former teaching by Paul in the first Epistle, particularly chapter 5, where he discussed the “times and appointments,” and directed them to be soberly watching for the specific signs that Jesus gave in His Olivet Discourse.
16 This is the term Jesus used in the Olivet Discourse when He told the disciples not to be “alarmed” by certain signs that must precede the coming tribulation, but in themselves do not signal His return (Matt. 24:6; Mark 13:7).
17 See note on 2 Thess. 3:17.
18 The KJV has “is at hand,” (implying that they thought the Day of the Anointed was imminent) because the Greek verb “” means to “stand near.” Most modern versions have “is present” because the verb is in the perfect tense, which implies past completed action with results that continue to the present. However, “has become imminent” embodies both meanings. (See: Heb. 9:9 for the same word with the same sense). Something had occurred that was being falsely reported to signal the imminent coming of the Anointed.
19 None of the Thessalonians should have been deceived by reports that the Anointed’s return was imminent, because Jesus had provided the sequence of events in His Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24), including the apostasy followed by the “abomination of desolation.”
20 Matthew 24:10-13
21 The “abomination of desolation” (Matt. 24:15), spoken of by Daniel (Dan. 9:27; Dan. 12:11)

Jamdoc · Oct 23, 2021

BobRyan said:
Agreed. Two literal resurrections.

What the Bible calls "The first resurrection" in Rev 20:3-5 happens at the Rev 19 appearing of Christ where the saints are raptured 1 Thess 4:13-18 and "the rest were killed" Rev 19.

The second resurrection happens "after the 1000 years are completed" according to Rev 19 and at that time the wicked will surround the camp of the saints, experience the great white throne judgment of Rev 19 and be cast into the lake of fire.

That's not at Revelation 19
it's at Revelation 6.
Jesus says that the elect are gathered (and Paul clarifies that the resurrection happens before that) when the sun and moon darken.
That's Revelation 6:12-13
not Revelation 19.

I mean, let's be clear.
Matthew 24, Jesus says after the Great Tribulation the sun and moon darken, He appears in the clouds, the tribes of the earth mourn, then the saints are gathered.

Paul says that the resurrection happens just before the saints are gathered (1 Thessalonians 4)

The sun and moon darken at the 6th seal, which means, the Great Tribulation is over at that time.

so what would you expect to see next after the sun and moon darken and all the tribes of the earth mourn? (asking for the rocks to fall on them and hide them)

The gathered saints.

Revelation 7.... has the gathered saints, praising God before His throne.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The Great Tribulation is over by the 6th seal.
It's clear.
The text itself spells it out. Jesus defined it.
not some pastor or reverend or priest or whatever.

The saints aren't gathered at Revelation 19, the wicked are.
are the beast and false prophet the elect?

No.

BobRyan · Oct 23, 2021

Jamdoc said:
That's not at Revelation 19
it's at Revelation 6.
Jesus says that the elect are gathered (and Paul clarifies that the resurrection happens before that) when the sun and moon darken.
That's Revelation 6:12-13
not Revelation 19.

I mean, let's be clear.
Matthew 24, Jesus says after the Great Tribulation the sun and moon darken, He appears in the clouds, the tribes of the earth mourn, then the saints are gathered.

Paul says that the resurrection happens just before the saints are gathered (1 Thessalonians 4)

1 Thess 4:13-18 says the dead in Christ rise first AFTER Jesus appears in the sky - at His coming. So before the saints can be gathered up - the ones that are dead must first be resurrected

15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord

Rev 6 and Rev 19 both describe the appearing of Christ.

Rev 6:
12 And I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and

the sun became as black as sackcloth made of hair, and
the whole moon became like blood;
13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind.

14 The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth and the eminent people, and the commanders and the wealthy and the strong, and every slave and free person hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16 and they *said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the sight of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17 for the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Matt 24:
25 Behold, I have told you in advance. 26 So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. 27 For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the

sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light,
and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Jamdoc · Oct 23, 2021

BobRyan said:
1 Thess 4:13-18 says the dead in Christ rise first AFTER Jesus appears in the sky - at His coming. So before the saints can be gathered up - the ones that are dead must first be resurrected

15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord

Rev 6 and Rev 19 both describe the appearing of Christ.

Rev 6:
12 And I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and

the sun became as black as sackcloth made of hair, and

the whole moon became like blood;

13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind.

14 The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth and the eminent people, and the commanders and the wealthy and the strong, and every slave and free person hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16 and they *said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the sight of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17 for the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Matt 24:
25 Behold, I have told you in advance. 26 So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. 27 For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the

sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light,

and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Yes, all that corresponds to what happens in Revelation 6 and 7.

It does not correlate with Revelation 19.
That's something different.
another place where this difference is seen is Zechariah 12-14. First Jesus appears in the clouds and they mourn, then the furnace that kills 2/3 of Israel and purifies 1/3 happens in Zechariah 13, and finally Zechariah 14 shows Jesus on the ground and the heathen fight Him, not mourn.

Revelation 6 and Revelation 19 are like this too. Revelation 6 they mourn and wail in response, so Jesus is in the clouds. Revelation 19 they try to fight Him.

BobRyan · Oct 23, 2021

ewq1938 said:
There are no "summary statements" in Revelation 20.

The summary is there in Rev 20:7-9..

===interesting word picture text someone has suggested in an online book --

"At last the order to advance is given, and the countless host moves on—an army such as was never summoned by earthly conquerors, such as the combined forces of all ages since war began on earth could never equal. Satan, the mightiest of warriors, leads the van, and his angels unite their forces for this final struggle. Kings and warriors are in his train, and the multitudes follow in vast companies, each under its appointed leader. With military precision the serried ranks advance over the earth’s broken and uneven surface to the City of God. By command of Jesus, the gates of the New Jerusalem are closed, and the armies of Satan surround the city and make ready for the onset." {DD 54.1}

"Now Christ again appears to the view of His enemies. Far above the city, upon a foundation of burnished gold, is a throne, high and lifted up. Upon this throne sits the Son of God, and around Him are the subjects of His kingdom. The power and majesty of Christ no language can describe, no pen portray. The glory of the Eternal Father is enshrouding His Son. The brightness of His presence fills the City of God, and flows out beyond the gates, flooding the whole earth with its radiance. {DD 54.2}

Nearest the throne are those who were once zealous in the cause of Satan, but who, plucked as brands from the burning, have followed their Saviour with deep, intense devotion. Next are those who perfected Christian characters in the midst of falsehood and infidelity, those who honored the law of God when the Christian world declared it void, and the millions, of all ages, who were martyred for their faith. And beyond is the “great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, ... before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands.” Revelation 7:9. Their warfare is ended, their victory won. They have run the race and reached the prize. The palm branch in their hands is a symbol of their triumph, the white robe an emblem of the spotless righteousness of Christ which now is theirs. {DD 54.3}

"The redeemed raise a song of praise that echoes and re-echoes through the vaults of heaven: “Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.” Verse 10. And angel and seraph unite their voices in adoration. As the redeemed have beheld the power and malignity of Satan, they have seen, as never before, that no power but that of Christ could have made them conquerors. In all that shining throng there are none to ascribe salvation to themselves, as if they had prevailed by their own power and goodness. Nothing is said of what they have done or suffered; but the burden of every song, the keynote of every anthem, is: Salvation to our God and unto the Lamb. {DD 54.4}

"In the presence of the assembled inhabitants of earth and heaven the final coronation of the Son of God takes place. And now, invested with supreme majesty and power, the King of kings pronounces sentence upon the rebels against His government and executes justice upon those who have transgressed His law and oppressed His people. Says the prophet of God: “I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.” Revelation 20:11, 12.... {DD 55.1}

BobRyan · Oct 23, 2021

Jamdoc said:
Yes, all that corresponds to what happens in Revelation 6 and 7.

It does not correlate with Revelation 19.

They describe the same event. They show all the inhabitants of the Earth brought face to face with Christ at His appearing.

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