Jesus Left the Day of Worship Open

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BobRyan

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I said: 1. He never quoted the command "do not take God's name in vain" but that does not mean we are free to do it without that still being "a sin" just as it always was for anyone who did it , in all of time.”

By contrast we have a number of direct quotes in the NT from the Sabbath Commandment

Here is what Jesus really said about that.
“Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, `Do not break your oath,

Agreed - but that qualifies as a good place to notice that "do not take God's name in vain" is not being quoted.

Taking God's name in vain includes:
"Using God’s name as a curse. Anytime that we use God’s name and we are not giving Him glory, we are using His name in vain.​
 
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chevyontheriver

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climate sunday

A movement in the United Kingdom called Climate Sunday aims to unite ecumenical churches in the combat against climate change. Climate Sunday plans to pressure the UK government to do more to combat climate change. There is also a UN Climate Change Conference called COP26 set to take place in Glasgow, Scotland in November 2021. Heads of state and climate scientists are expected to attend. The Climate Sunday movement plans to pressure members of the conference to take more steps to combat climate change. Pope Francis wrote in his encyclical, Laudato Si, that observing the Sabbath on Sunday is necessary to reverse climate change. More and more politicians and secular agencies are echoing his claim. This will undoubtedly lead to Sunday closing laws. Some countries already have Sunday closing laws while more are sure to follow.
Well there you go. Proof positive you will be shut down for trying to worship on Saturn's Day. And pope Francis is going to do it to you no less.

But what was it you were actually quoting as proof?
 
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BobRyan

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climate sunday

A movement in the United Kingdom called Climate Sunday aims to unite ecumenical churches in the combat against climate change. Climate Sunday plans to pressure the UK government to do more to combat climate change. There is also a UN Climate Change Conference called COP26 set to take place in Glasgow, Scotland in November 2021. Heads of state and climate scientists are expected to attend. .

But isn't "Climate Sunday" a political movement and is just referencing one Sunday - to help organize for the November meeting?

(I am not actually in favor of COP26 ... but just trying to be specific on what they are actually doing with that one "Climate Sunday" event - as a tool to pressure government to address climate change)
 
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Ligurian

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It is impossible to worship God by disobeying Him.

People do that every day, by saying they believe Jesus, but they don't keep His Commandments which came from the Father, John 12:48-50.


Jesus was born under the law (Galatians 4:4), so he was obligated to obey it, and he was sinless, so he never broke it, which includes never breaking the command to keep the 7th day holy.

That's very strange thinking... as though God is subject to God's Law. "Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven."
True, Jesus kept His Father's Commandment, but "which one" is the question no one asks. I believe John 12:49-50 is the answer. In so doing, Jesus fulfills Deuteronomy 18:18-19... for He speaks the words of the Father.

The Lord's Supper was a Passover Seder, so what was said during it should not be removed from that context and applied to every day.

Agreed. But the saying... "this do in remembrance" ...which of the twelve said that?... we don't know, because Luke doesn't say. Mark is certainly wrong, because He says the bread represents Jesus' body broken--which John emphatically denies--because such a thing defeats the prophecy... which Mark must not have known?

John 13--John 17 is a Sermon spoken only to the Twelve, then the Three and the Father. So is Matthew 26:20-45. Audience matters.


Likewise, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17-23) and God's law is how his audience knew what sin is. Furthermore, Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to God's law, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), so Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey God's law both by word and by example, and he did not establish the New Covenant in order to undermine anything that he spent his ministry teaching, but rather the New Covenant still involves following God's law (Jeremiah 31:33). In John 14:24, Jesus said that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father, so he should not be interpreted as being in disagreement with the Father about which laws we should follow.

Agreed.

The command the observe the sabbath was only given to the Jews, while Peter’s sermon was given to people from many lands. In that light, what you said isn’t entirely true.

The Covenant of the Law at Sinai was given to ALL of the children of Israel... not just to Judah.

In the Bible, the word Jew is actually Judaeans.
John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Judaeans.

Ioudaios = from Iouda (in the sense of Ioudas as a country); Judaean, i.e. belonging to Judah:--Jew(-ess), of Judaea.


But, which Peter was that, in Acts? ...What a tangled web...
Luke doesn't know anyone named Cephas, but calls Paul's Cephas of Galatians 2:9, by the name Peter, in Acts 15:7... while Act's James calls Luke's Peter by the name Simeon, in Acts 15:14.

Multiple men, same name, NT.
Cephas
1Cor.3:22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
1Cor.9:5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and [as] the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
1Cor.15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
Gal.2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we [should go] unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

Luke doesn't know anyone named Cephas, but calls Paul's Cephas of Galatians 2:9, by the name Peter, in Acts 15:7... while Act's James calls Luke's Peter by the name Simeon, in Acts 15:14.

Simeon
13:1 at Antioch ... Simeon that was called Niger...
15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles...
2 Peter 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Simon
1 Peter 1:1 Peter [the] apostle [of] Jesus Christ, [to the] chosen pilgrim Diaspora, [in] Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
8:9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
9:43 And it came to pass, that he tarried many days in Joppa with one Simon a tanner.
13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
27:32 And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name: him they compelled to bear his cross.
13:26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped [it]. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave [it] to Judas Iscariot, [the son] of Simon.

James
two are the Apostles from Galilee...
15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
13:55 Is not this the carpenter's Son? is not His mother called Mary? and His brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men [and] brethren, hearken unto me: 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first...

John
two are the Apostle and the Baptizer...
4:6 And Annas the high priest, and Caiaphas, and John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the kindred of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem.
12:25 And Barnabas and Saul returned from Jerusalem, when they had fulfilled [their] ministry, and took with them John, whose surname was Mark.

So... who are these men named James, Cephas, and John...

Galatians 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we [should go] unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

...if Cephas was in Antioch when Paul went to Jerusalem to complain about the circumcision that came to Antioch from James, to talk with Peter in Acts 15:7... if Peter was already in Jerusalem?

1 Peter 1 says Peter taught the circumcision/diaspora.
John 21:17-19 says Peter fed Jesus' sheep/the House of Israel.

Jezekiel 34:30-31 "And they shall know that I am the Lord their God, and they My people. O house of Israel, saith the Lord God, ye are My sheep, even the sheep of My flock, and I am the Lord your God," saith the Lord God.

John 10:1-5 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. But He that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To Him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear His voice: and He calleth His own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. And when He putteth forth His own sheep, He goeth before them, and the sheep follow Him: for they know His voice."
 
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Ligurian

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Well there you go. Proof positive you will be shut down for trying to worship on Saturn's Day. And pope Francis is going to do it to you no less.

But what was it you were actually quoting as proof?

Saturn's day is a Roman invention. Seems like they were in favor of the Titan who swallowed it's sons and daughters to keep himself in power. But Zeus had already defeated Saturn... and Typhon.
 
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HARK!

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MOD HAT ON

350015_0f282d4b538245f7d5ab333c90dad940.jpeg


MOD HAT OFF
 
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Soyeong

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People do that every day, by saying they believe Jesus, but they don't keep His Commandments which came from the Father, John 12:48-50.

In James 2:17-18, he said that faith without works is dead and that he would show his faith by his works, so doing good works is the way to believe in Christ.

That's very strange thinking... as though God is subject to God's Law. "Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven."
True, Jesus kept His Father's Commandment, but "which one" is the question no one asks. I believe John 12:49-50 is the answer. In so doing, Jesus fulfills Deuteronomy 18:18-19... for He speaks the words of the Father.

Galatians 4:4 says that Jesus was born under the law, so he was subject to it as someone who was a member of the Mosaic Covenant. The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the nature of God as it does to describe the nature of God's law, which is because it is God's instructions for how to express His nature, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), or with justice, mercy, and faithfulness being weightier matters of the law (Matthew 23:23). Jesus is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), which he expressed through his actions by living in sinless obedience to the Mosaic Law, so he is the living embodiment or the law, or the word of God made flesh. God did not just give the law to Moses, but also sent Jesus to bless us by showing us how to correctly obey it (Acts 3:25-26). In John 14:24, Jesus said that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father, so he did not depart from what the Father taught through Moses, and could not depart from it without ceasing to be the exact expression of God's nature.

Agreed. But the saying... "this do in remembrance" ...which of the twelve said that?... we don't know, because Luke doesn't say. Mark is certainly wrong, because He says the bread represents Jesus' body broken--which John emphatically denies--because such a thing defeats the prophecy... which Mark must not have known?

John 13--John 17 is a Sermon spoken only to the Twelve, then the Three and the Father. So is Matthew 26:20-45. Audience matters.

I don't think that Mark was necessarily in disagreement with John. We should be quicker to think that the problem is without understanding of the Bible than to think that there is a contradiction.

The Covenant of the Law at Sinai was given to ALL of the children of Israel... not just to Judah.

In the Bible, the word Jew is actually Judaeans.
John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Judaeans.

Ioudaios = from Iouda (in the sense of Ioudas as a country); Judaean, i.e. belonging to Judah:--Jew(-ess), of Judaea.


But, which Peter was that, in Acts? ...What a tangled web...
Luke doesn't know anyone named Cephas, but calls Paul's Cephas of Galatians 2:9, by the name Peter, in Acts 15:7... while Act's James calls Luke's Peter by the name Simeon, in Acts 15:14.

"Ioudaios" refers to Judean authorities or to those outside of Judea who were affiliated members of this authority structure.
 
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Ligurian

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People do that every day, by saying they believe Jesus, but they don't keep His Commandments which came from the Father, John 12:48-50.


That's very strange thinking... as though God is subject to God's Law. "Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven."
True, Jesus kept His Father's Commandment, but "which one" is the question no one asks. I believe John 12:49-50 is the answer. In so doing, Jesus fulfills Deuteronomy 18:18-19... for He speaks the words of the Father.


Agreed. But the saying... "this do in remembrance" ...which of the twelve said that?... we don't know, because Luke doesn't say. Mark is certainly wrong, because He says the bread represents Jesus' body broken--which John emphatically denies--because such a thing defeats the prophecy... which Mark must not have known?

John 13--John 17 is a Sermon spoken only to the Twelve, then the Three and the Father. So is Matthew 26:20-45. Audience matters.


Agreed.


The Covenant of the Law at Sinai was given to ALL of the children of Israel... not just to Judah.

In the Bible, the word Jew is actually Judaeans.
John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Judaeans.

Ioudaios = from Iouda (in the sense of Ioudas as a country); Judaean, i.e. belonging to Judah:--Jew(-ess), of Judaea.


But, which Peter was that, in Acts? ...What a tangled web...
Luke doesn't know anyone named Cephas, but calls Paul's Cephas of Galatians 2:9, by the name Peter, in Acts 15:7... while Act's James calls Luke's Peter by the name Simeon, in Acts 15:14.


1 Peter 1 says Peter taught the circumcision/diaspora.
John 21:17-19 says Peter fed Jesus' sheep/the House of Israel.

Jezekiel 34:30-31 "And they shall know that I am the Lord their God, and they My people. O house of Israel, saith the Lord God, ye are My sheep, even the sheep of My flock, and I am the Lord your God," saith the Lord God.

John 10:1-5 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. But He that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To Him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear His voice: and He calleth His own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. And when He putteth forth His own sheep, He goeth before them, and the sheep follow Him: for they know His voice."

In James 2:17-18, he said that faith without works is dead and that he would show his faith by his works, so doing good works is the way to believe in Christ.

Philanthropy doesn't mean you love God and believe what Jesus said in His name.

Loving your brethren means you both love Jesus and keep His Commandments which came from the Father.


Galatians 4:4 says that Jesus was born under the law, so he was subject to it as someone who was a member of the Mosaic Covenant. The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the nature of God as it does to describe the nature of God's law, which is because it is God's instructions for how to express His nature, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), or with justice, mercy, and faithfulness being weightier matters of the law (Matthew 23:23). Jesus is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), which he expressed through his actions by living in sinless obedience to the Mosaic Law, so he is the living embodiment or the law, or the word of God made flesh. God did not just give the law to Moses, but also sent Jesus to bless us by showing us how to correctly obey it (Acts 3:25-26). In John 14:24, Jesus said that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father, so he did not depart from what the Father taught through Moses, and could not depart from it without ceasing to be the exact expression of God's nature.

If Jesus is the exact word of God... then Paul's idea of the Law being nailed to the cross... it's not like the law got up and walked away... it's actually the word/Law/Jesus being nailed to the cross and then leaving Him there. See, this is the reason why I turned from the gospel to the gentiles... I could never make sense of it... I'm too logical for metaphysics.

And since many peoples have been married into the seed of Abraham, because they married outside of their race... I'm not alone, in the fact that the Gospel of the Kingdom draws me to it. The gentiles have the way of the proselytes... which is apparent even in the Covenant of Promise, Genesis 17. This has always been the way of God. But if you're correct in thinking that God gave the Law to Jesus to bless us... were the people in between not blessed?

Matthew 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

The Old Testament doesn't say Moses was allowing them to do it... but simply states it. Therefore, how many more things in the Old Testament were allowed by Moses?

The fact is that Jesus brought the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31... and it's written on our hearts by the Holy Spirit, through the remembrance of what Jesus says and what He meant by it. And so, the Sermon on the Mount gives the Kingdom Laws and judges the heart.

I don't think that Mark was necessarily in disagreement with John. We should be quicker to think that the problem is without understanding of the Bible than to think that there is a contradiction.

"Ioudaios" refers to Judean authorities or to those outside of Judea who were affiliated members of this authority structure.

Mark wasn't there. We don't even know who Mark heard speaking. But it certainly wasn't a Galilean Apostle.

Look at interlinear Greek/English... Ioudaios should not be translated as Jew. And it's sure not about Judaean authorities, in this verse I gave you:

John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Judaeans.
Ioudaios = from Iouda (in the sense of Ioudas as a country); Judaean, i.e. belonging to Judah:--Jew(-ess), of Judaea.

It's the same sort of idiocy we see in the Latin word "Gentiles"... being put in place of a race or a nation. And they all fell under that spell, too.
 
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Soyeong

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Philanthropy doesn't mean you love God and believe what Jesus said in His name.

Loving your brethren means you both love Jesus and keep His Commandments which came from the Father.

Faith in and love for Jesus is expressed by doing good works, though I agree that not all good works express faith in or love for Jesus.

If Jesus is the exact word of God... then Paul's idea of the Law being nailed to the cross... it's not like the law got up and walked away... it's actually the word/Law/Jesus being nailed to the cross and then leaving Him there. See, this is the reason why I turned from the gospel to the gentiles... I could never make sense of it... I'm too logical for metaphysics.

In regard to Colossians 2:14, it does not speak about any of God's laws being nailed to the cross. There is a difference between these two statements:

1.) You shall not commit murder.

2.) This person has been found guilty of murder.

The first is an example of a law that is for our own good while the second is an example of a handwritten ordinance that was against someone that was nailed to their cross in order to announce why they were being executed. In Matthew 27:37, it says that they put the charge that was against Jesus over his head, so what was nailed to people's crosses was not the laws themselves, but the charge that was against them. This serves as a perfect analogy for the list of our violations of God's law being nailed to Christ's cross and with him dying in our place to pay the penalty for our sins, but has nothing to do with ending any of God's laws, especially because they are all eternal (Psalms 119:160). In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to end any laws, but in order to redeem us from all lawlessness, so saying that there were any laws nailed to the cross undermines what he accomplished on the cross. The Greek word "dogma" means "edict, ordinance, or decree" and is never used by the Bible to refer to God's law.

And since many peoples have been married into the seed of Abraham, because they married outside of their race... I'm not alone, in the fact that the Gospel of the Kingdom draws me to it. The gentiles have the way of the proselytes... which is apparent even in the Covenant of Promise, Genesis 17. This has always been the way of God. But if you're correct in thinking that God gave the Law to Jesus to bless us... were the people in between not blessed?

In Genesis 18:19, God experientially knew Abraham that he might teach his children and those of his household to walk in God’s ways by doing righteousness and justice so that the Lord may bring to Abraham all that He has promised him. In Genesis 26:4-5, God said that he would multiply Abraham seed as the stars of heaven and will give to his seed all these lands and in his seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed because Abraham heard God’s voice and guarded His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by making known to Him His ways that he might experientially know Him, and Israel too, and there are many verses that describe the Mosaic Law as being instructions for how to walk in God’s way, such as Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalms 103:7, and many others. God's law is also how the seed of Abraham knew how to be blesse through walking in God's ways (Psalms 119:1-3). So what makes someone into a child of Abraham is that they have experiential knowledge of God by walking in His ways in obedience to His laws through faith and this is also what makes someone into a person that God is willing to multiply through filling the earth with the knowledge of God and thereby being a blessing to the nations.

Matthew 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

The Old Testament doesn't say Moses was allowing them to do it... but simply states it. Therefore, how many more things in the Old Testament were allowed by Moses?

In Matthew 19:3, Jesus was asked about whether it was permissible for a man to divorce his wife for any reason. To provide some context, Gittin 90a-b interpreted Deuteronomy 24:1-4 as saying that a man was permitted to divorce his wife if she ruined his meal or if he found someone prettier than her, so Jesus was referring to divorce over frivolous reasons as being what was not so from the beginning. In Deuteronomy 5:31-33, Moses wrote down everything that God commanded him without departing from it, and the same Father who gave the law to him also sent Jesus to fulfill all righteousness by showing us how to obey it, so there is no disagreement.

The fact is that Jesus brought the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31... and it's written on our hearts by the Holy Spirit, through the remembrance of what Jesus says and what He meant by it. And so, the Sermon on the Mount gives the Kingdom Laws and judges the heart.

In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves following the Torah, which is the Mosaic Law. Everything that Jesus taught in the Sermon on the Mount was rooted in the OT and in fact there has never been someone else whose teachings were more thoroughly rooted in the OT. Likewise, in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Holy Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Mosaic Law.


Mark wasn't there. We don't even know who Mark heard speaking. But it certainly wasn't a Galilean Apostle.

Look at interlinear Greek/English... Ioudaios should not be translated as Jew. And it's sure not about Judaean authorities, in this verse I gave you:

John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Judaeans.
Ioudaios = from Iouda (in the sense of Ioudas as a country); Judaean, i.e. belonging to Judah:--Jew(-ess), of Judaea.

It's the same sort of idiocy we see in the Latin word "Gentiles"... being put in place of a race or a nation. And they all fell under that spell, too.

I recommend reading the book The Jewish Gospel of John by Eli Lizorkin-Eyzenberg
 
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Ligurian

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In Matthew 19:3, Jesus was asked about whether it was permissible for a man to divorce his wife for any reason. To provide some context, Gittin 90a-b

Matthew 16:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Matthew 21:33-44 37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 39 And they caught him, and cast [him] out of the vineyard, and slew [him]. 40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out [his] vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. 42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The Kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Daniel 2:32-34 It was an image, the head of which was of fine gold, its hands and breast and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of brass, its legs of iron, its feet, part of iron and part of earthenware. Thou sawest until a stone was cut out of a mountain without hands, and it smote the image upon its feet of iron and earthenware, and utterly reduced them to powder.LXX
 
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BobRyan

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In regard to Colossians 2:14, it does not speak about any of God's laws being nailed to the cross. There is a difference between these two statements:

1.) You shall not commit murder.

2.) This person has been found guilty of murder.

The first is an example of a law that is for our own good while the second is an example of a handwritten ordinance that was against someone that was nailed to their cross in order to announce why they were being executed. In Matthew 27:37, it says that they put the charge that was against Jesus over his head, so what was nailed to people's crosses was not the laws themselves, but the charge that was against them. This serves as a perfect analogy for the list of our violations of God's law being nailed to Christ's cross and with him dying in our place to pay the penalty for our sins, but has nothing to do with ending any of God's laws, especially because they are all eternal (Psalms 119:160). In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to end any laws, but in order to redeem us from all lawlessness, so saying that there were any laws nailed to the cross undermines what he accomplished on the cross. The Greek word "dogma" means "edict, ordinance, or decree" and is never used by the Bible to refer to God's law.

amen to that!
 
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BobRyan

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The command to keep the 7th day holy is not the command to worship God only on the 7th day. The Israelites worshiped God on every day, which included obeying His command to keep the 7th day holy. It is impossible to worship God by disobeying Him. Jesus was born under the law (Galatians 4:4), so he was obligated to obey it, and he was sinless, so he never broke it, which includes never breaking the command to keep the 7th day holy. The Lord's Supper was a Passover Seder, so what was said during it should not be removed from that context and applied to every day. Baptism has never been associated with a particular day.

In Acts 2:38, Peter instructed His audience to repent and become baptized for the forgiveness of sins, and God's law is how they knew what sin is, which includes the command to keep the 7th day holy, so part of that is repenting from breaking the Sabbath. Likewise, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17-23) and God's law is how his audience knew what sin is. Furthermore, Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to God's law, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), so Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey God's law both by word and by example, and he did not establish the New Covenant in order to undermine anything that he spent his ministry teaching, but rather the New Covenant still involves following God's law (Jeremiah 31:33). In John 14:24, Jesus said that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father, so he should not be interpreted as being in disagreement with the Father about which laws we should follow.

Very helpful post! Thanks for that.
 
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Soyeong

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Matthew 16:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Matthew 21:33-44 37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 39 And they caught him, and cast [him] out of the vineyard, and slew [him]. 40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out [his] vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. 42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The Kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Daniel 2:32-34 It was an image, the head of which was of fine gold, its hands and breast and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of brass, its legs of iron, its feet, part of iron and part of earthenware. Thou sawest until a stone was cut out of a mountain without hands, and it smote the image upon its feet of iron and earthenware, and utterly reduced them to powder.LXX

The point was just the provide context from where the question in Matthew 19:3 was coming from, not to quote them as an authority. In Luke 12:1, it directly states that the leaven of the Pharisees is hypocrisy, which would be in regard to acting for show in a way that did not express what was on the inside. Pharisees also criticized other Pharisees for hypocrisy, so Jesus was not the only one to do that, nor were all Pharisees hypocrites. In the debate between Hillel and Shammai, Jesus almost always agreed with Hillel. In Matthew 23:23, while Jesus criticize the Pharisees as hypocrites a number of times, he nevertheless recognized their authority by saying that they sit in the seat of Moses and that we should do what they say, but not what they do in regard to their hypocrisy. Paul never stopped identifying as a Pharisee (Acts 23:6), and we are told to follow his example (1 Corinthians 11:1), so most of the NT was written by a Pharisee and we are told to follow the example of a Pharisee.
 
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Dale

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Jesus did according to Hebrews 8.

Heb8:6 But now He(Jesus) has obtained a more excellent ministry, to the extent that He(Jesus) is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been free of fault, no circumstances would have been sought for a second. 8 For in finding fault with the people, He(Jesus) says,

“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord(Jesus),
When I(Jesus) will bring about a new covenant
With the house of Israel and the house of Judah,
9 Not like the covenant which I(Jesus) made with their fathers
On the day I(Jesus) took them by the hand
To bring them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My(Jesus') covenant,
And I did not care about them, says the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant which I(Jesus) will make with the house of Israel
After those days, declares the Lord:
I(Jesus) will put My(Jesus') laws into their minds,
And write them on their hearts.
And I(Jesus) will be their God,
And they shall be My(Jesus') people.

======================

I believe the Bible


Bob,

The name “Jesus” does appear in Hebrews 8:6 in the NIV. It does not appear in verses eight to thirteen of the same chapter in either the KJV or the NIV. You have inserted, in brackets, the name of Jesus eleven times in six verses. All you’ve done is insert your opinion into a passage in Hebrews. In short, Hebrews doesn’t really say what you want it to say.

This is the verse you should take a hard look at.

For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant,no place would have been sought for another.
Hebrews 8:7 NIV

Hebrews tells us that the Covenant given in the OT is flawed, imperfect, it falls short. There is something “wrong” with it. It was never intended to last forever, God always planned to replace it with the New Covenant, brought to us by the Messiah, Jesus Christ. This is something the Seventh Day Adventists don’t understand.
 
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Dale

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Not true -

Lev 23:3 the 7th day Sabbath is a day of "Holy Convocation"

And in Is 66:23 for all eternity after the cross "from SABBATH to SABBATH shall all mankind will come before Me to worship"

This is the easy part.


Bob, your quote from Leviticus is misleading because you didn’t quote the whole passage.

The sabbath referred to here is not a weekly sabbath.

The LORD’s Passover begins at twilight on the fourteenth day of the first month.
On the fifteenth day of that month the LORD’s Feast of
Unleavened Bread begins
; for seven days you must eat bread made without yeast.
On the first day hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work.
Leviticus 23:5-7 NIV

This passage is about an annual celebration and it has nothing to do with the place of the regular weekly sabbaths in the life of a Jewish village of the time.

The passage in Isaiah that you cite uses the sabbath to mark time but tells us nothing about sabbath observance.
 
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Hebrews tells us that the Covenant given in the OT is flawed, imperfect, it falls short. There is something “wrong” with it. It was never intended to last forever, God always planned to replace it with the New Covenant, brought to us by the Messiah, Jesus Christ. This is something the Seventh Day Adventists don’t understand.

You are incorrect. The original covenant was not flawed, or imperfect as it was GOD who designed the covenant and he is perfect. The nation of Israel was flawed and imperfect.

There were two parties to the covenant, GOD and the nation of Israel. The nation continued in sin thus breaking the covenant made with GOD

Exodus Chapter 19

5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

That is the covenant between two inanities.

The nation broke the covenant to the point that they crucified Jesus Christ the promise.

To this day the nation of Israel is outside the covenant with their rejection of Jesus Christ.
They no longer are a peculiar treasure to GOD and all the promises belong to the church (spiritual Israel)
 
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prophecy_uk

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You are incorrect. The original covenant was not flawed, or imperfect as it was GOD who designed the covenant and he is perfect. The nation of Israel was flawed and imperfect.

There were two parties to the covenant, GOD and the nation of Israel. The nation continued in sin thus breaking the covenant made with GOD

Exodus Chapter 19

5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

That is the covenant between two inanities.

The nation broke the covenant to the point that they crucified Jesus Christ the promise.

To this day the nation of Israel is outside the covenant with their rejection of Jesus Christ.
They no longer are a peculiar treasure to GOD and all the promises belong to the church (spiritual Israel)





The statutes were not good, they did not live by them, not of faith ( of law and letter which kills) and cursed too, and we are redeemed from all of that curse, and party of that curse was hating your enemy, now you love him to now be perfect as your Father in Heaven ( in us) is perfect, the law could make nobody perfect, now we are by Christ ( the faith of Christ)




Ezekiel 20:25 Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;



Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Hebrews 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
 
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BobRyan

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Lev 23:3 the 7th day Sabbath is a day of "Holy Convocation"

Bob, your quote from Leviticus is misleading because you didn’t quote the whole passage.

hmm... is it your claim that the chapter will spin back on itself and deny that the 7th day Sabbath is a day of "Holy Convocation"?? let's take a look and SEE.

1. The Lord spoke again to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘The Lord’s appointed times which you shall proclaim as holy convocationsMy appointed times are these:

3 ‘For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a Sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation. You shall not do any work; it is a Sabbath to the Lord in all your dwellings.

4 ‘These are the appointed times of the Lord, holy convocations​


Sadly that did not help your cause at all... where you hoping for something from some "other" Bible chapter??
 
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BobRyan

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The statutes were not good, they did not live by them, not of faith

"Do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 - still a sin to break that commandment to this very day.

Even in the NT "sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

That LAW which includes the TEN having "' honor your father and mother' as the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

Jeremiah points out that the NEW COVENANT writes the LAW of God known to Jeremiah and his readers on heart and mind Jer 31:31-34

Paul says "Do we then nullify the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law" Rom 3:31

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

Matt 19 Jesus said "KEEP the Commandments" and is asked "which ones" - at that point Jesus quotes from the LAW of Moses "alone".

From the TEN Commandments in fact.
 
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BobRyan

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Heb 8:
Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest (Jesus), who has taken His(Jesus') seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord set up, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. 4 Now if He(Jesus) were on earth, He(Jesus) would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; 5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “See,” He(Jesus) says, “that you make all things by the pattern which was shown to you on the mountain.”

Heb8:6 But now He(Jesus) has obtained a more excellent ministry, to the extent that He(Jesus) is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been free of fault, no circumstances would have been sought for a second. 8 For in finding fault with the people, He(Jesus) says,

“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord(Jesus),
When I(Jesus) will bring about a new covenant
With the house of Israel and the house of Judah,
9 Not like the covenant which I(Jesus) made with their fathers
On the day I(Jesus) took them by the hand
To bring them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My(Jesus') covenant,
And I did not care about them, says the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant which I(Jesus) will make with the house of Israel
After those days, declares the Lord:
I(Jesus) will put My(Jesus') laws into their minds,
And write them on their hearts.
And I(Jesus) will be their God,
And they shall be My(Jesus') people.

======================

Bob,
The name “Jesus” does appear in Hebrews 8:6 in the NIV. It does not appear in verses eight to thirteen of the same chapter in either the KJV or the NIV.

The name "Jesus" is not in the entire chapter of Heb 8 or 9 at all.

It is remotely "possible" that some Christians somewhere on planet Earth do not know that the High Priest and Mediator for mankind spoken of by Paul in Heb 8 ad 9 is the same Jesus mentioned in chapter 7 verse 22 and 24 - I am ok with "risking" that some such person exists.

I have yet to actually meet such a person but I suppose it is theoretically possible the one such person exists.
 
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