Are Democrats making a strategic blunder by bashing Manchin and Sinema?

Aldebaran said:

Sounds like you're saying that the Republicans are supposed to just go along with the democrats' entire wish list.
What should happen is that AOC and all the others on the extreme left should demand, and scream, and whatever else they do to stand firm as they are currently doing. That way, nothing will get passed, and the country can save 4.7 trillion dollars, at least for awhile.

Click to expand...

I made no mention of Republicans. Nothing I mentioned involves Republican votes.

Aldebaran said:

"Play ball" in this case means to fall in line and do what the dems want. Just as "unity" means basically the same thing. Definately not a good option.

Click to expand...

You mean the things Manchin and Sinema supposedly want as well. It is almost like they are talking out both sides of their mouths.

wing2000 said:

Yes. The Arizona progressive's need to do a reality check as you highlighted. A liberal democrat will not win in the general election. She won by winning over Independents (a third of AZ voters) and McCain Republicans who could not support Trump's candidate.

I think Sen Sinema is an easy target as she refuses to participate in the the daily (hourly?) "political crisis" drama created by the press at large. She rarely does interviews and values building trust with those across the aisle.

Click to expand...

But Mark Kelly, who was elected in the same election as here, is further to the left then she is.

ThatRobGuy said:

Which issues in particular?

Sinema gets the following scores from various advocacy organizations according to GovTrack based on her voting record.

View attachment 306994

She gets a 13% from "The Club for Growth" which is a conservative economic think tank. (indicating a more liberal position on her part)

The other ones she receives decent scores on, especially on gay rights, women's rights, environmental causes, and marijuana reform.

Click to expand...

Healthcare (most recently prescription drug pricing) and min wage.

I have friends who used to campaign for her and say she no longer supports the platform she used to. They say she’s been bought out by big pharma and others. The bottom line is that the people who voted for her support the infrastructure bill, drug pricing reform, etc.

I don’t look to any of the orgs you listed to decide how to vote. Especially not the Chamber of Commerce. Not that they aren’t relevant to a lot of folks, I get why you posted those stats.

Arcangl86 said:

But Mark Kelly, who was elected in the same election as here, is further to the left then she is.

Click to expand...

I don't think Mark Kelly has been in office long enough to make that assessment. He may not be as independent as Sinema is, but I think that is partially due to his junior status.

wing2000 said:

I don't think Mark Kelly has been in office long enough to make that assessment. He may not be as independent as Sinema is, but I think that is partially due to his junior status.

Click to expand...

He's new to office, but he's been to the left of Sinema on every major vote so far.

ThatRobGuy said:

The Democrats' frustration with these two has been boiling over for a few months now. However, the push to force them to comply with the rest of the party (and even a threat to present a primary challenger for them) may be throwing the baby out with the bathwater so to speak.

Click to expand...

You're probably correct about this, and it's a well-structured post. However, I wonder about the closing comment ("It's almost like the trap republicans fell into when they took people who were life long republicans [and voted conservative on most things], and ran their names through the mud and called them "RINO" because they deviated from them on 1 or 2 issues...").

Can you think of any such who were ostracized and called that name because of only 1 or 2 issues? There is a movement apparently gaining ground at the state and precinct level among Republicans to end at last the customary tolerance shown towards elected Republican legislators in Republican districts who have repeatedly broken ranks with their party. Certainly, it's not about a "1 or 2 issues" record.

Tiberius Lee said:

You saying conservative don’t vote out conservatives politician who disagree with them? Wow I learn something new every day.

Click to expand...

You probably have your own definition of "conservative." Otherwise, I cannot see much for you to base your assessment on.

ThatRobGuy said:

Progressive PAC kick-starts search for challengers to Manchin, Sinema

The Left Is Done Pressuring Kyrsten Sinema. Now They Want a Primary.

Infrastructure bill: Patience wanes as Democrats demand Sinema and Manchin reveal views on Biden agenda - CNNPolitics


The Democrats' frustration with these two has been boiling over for a few months now. However, the push to force them to comply with the rest of the party (and even a threat to present a primary challenger for them) may be throwing the baby out with the bathwater so to speak.

It would seem like they run the risk of losing senate votes on some other issues crucial to their platform
Manchin and Sinema both:
-Support Universal Healthcare
-Support Democratic immigration initiatives
-Accept gay marriage
-Support min wage increase
-Sinema has a solid pro-choice voting record, Manchin has a mixed record
-Support expanding social security
-Oppose Republican school choice initiatives
-Support higher taxes on the wealthy
-Pro-union
- (Sinema is pro gun control, Manchin leans a tad the other way, but still favors background checks)

Click to expand...

Hmmm, let's see if they would actually vote with their caucus if any of these actually come to the floor.

So far I've not seen Manchin stand for much of ANYTHING that would further the Dem platform. And Sinema is too busy playing stupid word games revealing that she stands for literally nothing.

I don't have faith that they actually WOULD support any of these things if they actually had to vote for them.

pacomascarot said:

Hmmm, let's see if they would actually vote with their caucus if any of these actually come to the floor.

So far I've not seen Manchin stand for much of ANYTHING that would further the Dem platform.

Click to expand...

Manchin's overall voting record shows him to be the Senate Democrat whose voting record, when plotted on a graph, is the farthest towards the Republicans of all the Democrats. But it still is farther left than all of the 50 Republicans in the Senate.

Arcangl86 said:

He's new to office, but he's been to the left of Sinema on every major vote so far.

Click to expand...

What major votes are these where they voted differeently?

ThatRobGuy said:

.

Perhaps Democrats have a stronger sentiment of "conform or else!"

Click to expand...

Yes, it seems that if you don't want to spend $7T that you aren't a real Democrat.

If you don't want to give car buyers tens of thousands for buying the EV's, then you aren't a real Democrat. It matters not at all that no incentives are needed. It makes no difference that these incentives would not go to the poor at all, and little to the Middle Class.

The Democrats have a winning strategy available. Fully fund a small number of initiatives and campaign on them, as well as campaigning on physical infrastructure. Making the increased child credit permanent is a winning issue. Another is required family leave.
=================
Let's consider those who cannot afford working at a $15 to $20 an hour because the cost of childcare is almost that for the two children. The Democrat answer is to pay the worker a large subsidy for childcare so that she can work at a low wage job. Is society really better with this solution? IMO, just pay a much higher child care credit.