Refusing to be vaccinated against Covid-19 is a ’sin’ & anti-vaxxers must spend their life repenting

Dorothea · Oct 9, 2021

truefiction1 said:
Also, they are not necessarily some close-knit secret society that meets in the shadows, as many of us might imagine. They may not even know each other at all, or they might. The things that bind them are their apostasy, their devotion to the gospel of Anti-Christ, and the works that they do. Even the holy Apostle Peter, as we recall, was acting as a Zionist just prior to being called "Satan" by Jesus (Matthew 16:22-24). And so we can see how easily we can fall to the spirit of anti-Christ when we love our lives in this world more than the Kingdom which is to come, which Peter in that moment had done.

Indeed.

Antoni · Oct 9, 2021

gurneyhalleck1 said:
That is one aspect of it. Ivermectin is not anti-viral and we’re dealing with a virus. It has not undergone clinical trials that prove it is effective in treating COVID. Far too many doctors, virologists, and epidemiologists have come out saying it is not effective or recommended. Is it inherently a dangerous drug? No. The human version is not. It likely just wiped out your beneficial gut bacteria but doesn’t give you a toe tag.

A medicine can have antiviral properties even if it’s main uses are usually for other reasons. In fact many therapeutic discoveries for medicines have been realized later in their uses. Ivermectin most assuredly has antiviral properties.

Ivermectin: a systematic review from antiviral effects to COVID-19 complementary regimen - PubMed

In fact, there are over 120 research articles we can go through just with its antiviral effects in Covid over just the past two years.

Lukaris · Oct 9, 2021

truefiction1 said:
Zionist is the term usually used by the saints to denote anyone who has slipped under the influence of that same spirit that lead to the Holy Apostle Peter being called "Satan" by the Lord Jesus Christ. We would do well to acknowledge the very real presence of that spirit in our lives and its influence over the whole world. To suggest its dead, or that no powerful and influential people exist who are under the spell of that spirit might not be altogether wise.

It seems to be a deeply misplaced, secular term to a lapsed spiritual condition that was known otherwise for over 18 centuries.

Samizmoot · Oct 9, 2021

truefiction1 said:
Zionist is the term usually used by the saints to denote anyone who has slipped under the influence of that same spirit that lead to the Holy Apostle Peter being called "Satan" by the Lord Jesus Christ. We would do well to acknowledge the very real presence of that spirit in our lives and its influence over the whole world. To suggest its dead, or that no powerful and influential people exist who are under the spell of that spirit might not be altogether wise.

Lukaris said:
It seems to be a deeply misplaced, secular term to a lapsed spiritual condition that was known otherwise for over 18 centuries.

It's a name people adopted for themselves in an earlier era.

And more basic - it's a form of ethno-nationalism or supremacy - and one has to question why 'it can't exist' for one group while being a known phenomenon for virtually every other group. And as it goes, in the ideology can be it doesn't have to be localized in the group itself.

Andrei D · Oct 9, 2021

Antoni said:
A medicine can have antiviral properties even if it’s main uses are usually for other reasons. In fact many therapeutic discoveries for medicines have been realized later in their uses. Ivermectin most assuredly has antiviral properties.

Ivermectin: a systematic review from antiviral effects to COVID-19 complementary regimen - PubMed

In fact, there are over 120 research articles we can go through just with its antiviral effects in Covid over just the past two years.

Exactly. And the reverse. Amantadine comes to mind - initially developed as an antiviral, ended up used as a medication for tremor and dyskinesia in Parkinson's disease. Doesn't do a great job in either. But then, someone noticed a side effect was insomnia so now it's used pretty broadly for fatigue / sleepiness in people with various conditions like multiple sclerosis or head trauma... Science.

For most people it is difficult to realize just how random the discovery of drugs and their effects really is.

Neurontin was supposed to be the best thing since sliced bread for seizures, but it's pretty lame in that original indication. But, of course, it's extremely useful now for nerve pain.

Viagra was supposed to be a life saving medication for high blood pressure and chest pain, but it didn't work that well and had a pesky side effect. That pesky side effect became it's current main indication.

Coming back to seizures, this one probably tops the bill. The search for seizure medications was stalling and it was quite hard to find an effective compound, so when a French researcher had great results with a bunch of different compounds he was testing he couldn't believe it. And he shouldn't have. Turned out the "inert" solvent used to dilute all those compounds was the actual effective medication - valproic acid / Depakote.

As matter of fact, one of the official, approved medications for COVID, is a drug for rheumatoid arthritis. Of course it makes sense, it reduces inflammation etc. but the simplifying rhetoric "how could something for joint disease help in COVID?" would sound the same.

Anyway, the next misconception, that might be even more dangerous is the proposition that off-label prescribing is somehow a bad thing.

Prescribing medications "off label", that is without an official FDA-approved indication, is a common, day-to-day, practice. It's not something odd or even unusual. It is a banal occurrence. In some specialties, off label is the only kind of prescribing, because for some less frequent conditions, there ar no approved medications. Doctors are doctors because of their knowledge, skill, experience and judgement. They are supposed to have a degree of autonomy in practice. Patients are also unique. They have a universal right to choose their physician. Before COVID, no one questioned any of this. In fact, they were held as fundamental values of the profession and of the doctor-patient relationship. But just like in many other ways, COVID is changing the very concepts on which our society is established. I do not think I am exaggerating when I say that promoting the idea that off-label prescribing is a malignant practice is one of these ways.

It will be a sad day indeed if this novel ideology takes hold and doctors are no longer allowed to practice outside the dictates of an official agency. Doctor choice will become moot, and all people will be the patient of a small group of politically powerful doctors, while the actual providers will be simple clerks.

prodromos · Oct 9, 2021

rturner76 said:
They are creating false narratives about the shot's efficacy and side effects by using false and misleading information

I'm sorry, but have you read any of what has been posted in this thread?

ArmyMatt · Oct 9, 2021

gurneyhalleck1 said:
Alright, well, Ive said it before and didn’t live up to my promises. I’m out of here.

I think this thread presents Orthodox Christians as a group of antivaxxer hardcore fringe folk who have zero time for anyone who feels differently. A visitor to TAW who took the vaccine and/or vaccinated his/her children would see hostility and paranoia here. My wife is a family nurse practitioner and when I tell her the things said on this thread, she cringed and face palms. I have nothing left to say….on many levels. I’m sad to say this thread has been too eye-opening and toxic for me. People I felt were online friends seem to think me a fool who, to quote Jack, can’t handle the truth. I’m told I’m insulting and hurtful and a maker of unfair caricatures, misinformed, and now I’m even seeing anti Semitic talk rationalized. People speak to me with banal kid gloves saying things like, “I’d like to share the truth with you, but you don’t seem spiritually prepared to handle the truth.” Oy vey.

My friend, a former deacon, told me, “STAY…..OFF….THE INTERNET! Orthodoxy online can be nuts. Just….STAY…..OFF!”

So, I’m finally heeding that advice. While I’m finished posting in this forum, my parting advice to you all who still hold even a thimble of respect for me is simple.

CLOSE THIS THREAD.

Lord have mercy! I know this topic can get heated, but I do hope you find your way back here, even if it takes a bit.

Antoni · Oct 9, 2021

I think it was Mark Twain who said
“It’s Easier to Fool People Than to Convince Them That They Have Been Fooled”

Very difficult to discern the truth when the corrupt mainstream media, owned and controlled by a few corporations, has such power over the people and are the gatekeepers of what information is spread and held to be true.

We are all seeking for the truth and for what is right and good and God pleasing.

Nevertheless, the stifling of debate or the censoring of information is by far much more dangerous to our society than Covid or the vaccine.

May the Lord give us wisdom, strength and discernment during these difficult times.

Samizmoot · Oct 9, 2021

Andrei D said:
Exactly. And the reverse. Amantadine comes to mind - initially developed as an antiviral, ended up used as a medication for tremor and dyskinesia in Parkinson's disease. Doesn't do a great job in either. But then, someone noticed a side effect was insomnia so now it's used pretty broadly for fatigue / sleepiness in people with various conditions like multiple sclerosis or head trauma... Science.

For most people it is difficult to realize just how random the discovery of drugs and their effects really is.

Neurontin was supposed to be the best thing since sliced bread for seizures, but it's pretty lame in that original indication. But, of course, it's extremely useful now for nerve pain.

Viagra was supposed to be a life saving medication for high blood pressure and chest pain, but it didn't work that well and had a pesky side effect. That pesky side effect became it's current main indication.

Coming back to seizures, this one probably tops the bill. The search for seizure medications was stalling and it was quite hard to find an effective compound, so when a French researcher had great results with a bunch of different compounds he was testing he couldn't believe it. And he shouldn't have. Turned out the "inert" solvent used to dilute all those compounds was the actual effective medication - valproic acid / Depakote.

As matter of fact, one of the official, approved medications for COVID, is a drug for rheumatoid arthritis. Of course it makes sense, it reduces inflammation etc. but the simplifying rhetoric "how could something for joint disease help in COVID?" would sound the same.

Anyway, the next misconception, that might be even more dangerous is the proposition that off-label prescribing is somehow a bad thing.

Prescribing medications "off label", that is without an official FDA-approved indication, is a common, day-to-day, practice. It's not something odd or even unusual. It is a banal occurrence. In some specialties, off label is the only kind of prescribing, because for some less frequent conditions, there ar no approved medications. Doctors are doctors because of their knowledge, skill, experience and judgement. They are supposed to have a degree of autonomy in practice. Patients are also unique. They have a universal right to choose their physician. Before COVID, no one questioned any of this. In fact, they were held as fundamental values of the profession and of the doctor-patient relationship. But just like in many other ways, COVID is changing the very concepts on which our society is established. I do not think I am exaggerating when I say that promoting the idea that off-label prescribing is a malignant practice is one of these ways.

It will be a sad day indeed if this novel ideology takes hold and doctors are no longer allowed to practice outside the dictates of an official agency. Doctor choice will become moot, and all people will be the patient of a small group of politically powerful doctors, while the actual providers will be simple clerks.

Women can't donate eggs without the dangerous use of offline drugs. Nobody blinks an eye over that

rusmeister · Oct 9, 2021

Dorothea said:
You want to take away the one place where we who differ on the benefits of a vaccine can talk without censorship. You want to take away our voices because you don't like that we have a differing opinion? What makes you any different than Biden and his neoliberal bunch who are working hard to silence dissenters?

I think Gurney’s words are not really about silencing us, but rather much more about feeling fatigue and sadness from being in a minority here, and having strong feelings directed at him by the majority who feel completely stifled by the government and the mandates they are forcing businesses to adopt.
It’s exhausting arguing (intelligently) from an unpopular minority position. I know - I do it all the time.
The healthiest attitude we can adopt in the Church is freedom of conscience for all, and faith that God will not let the Church be destroyed by the virus and those seeking to use it in the lust for power.

prodromos · Oct 10, 2021

Apparently a number of horse wormers also contain polyethylene glycol (PEG) which is more likely what is causing the health issues rather than the dosage of Ivermectin. PEG is toxic to humans. What is ironic is that all of the mRNA 'vaccines' contain PEG which has caused anaphylaxis in some recipients.

truefiction1 · Oct 10, 2021

rusmeister said:
I think Gurney’s words are not really about silencing us, but rather much more about feeling fatigue and sadness from being in a minority here, and having strong feelings directed at him by the majority who feel completely stifled by the government and the mandates they are forcing businesses to adopt.
It’s exhausting arguing (intelligently) from an unpopular minority position. I know - I do it all the time.
The healthiest attitude we can adopt in the Church is freedom of conscience for all, and faith that God will not let the Church be destroyed by the virus and those seeking to use it in the lust for power.

Or else his mind is warring against his own conscience and dialoging on this is not helping in that war. That can be excruciatingly upsetting.

Andrei D · Oct 10, 2021

prodromos said:
Apparently a number of horse wormers also contain polyethylene glycol (PEG) which is more likely what is causing the health issues rather than the dosage of Ivermectin. PEG is toxic to humans. What is ironic is that all of the mRNA 'vaccines' contain PEG which has caused anaphylaxis in some recipients.

Yes. And some of them (liquid forms) contain formamide. Dosage is another problem - without doctor guidance, people apparently have been taking overdoses which is unequivocally dangerous, or they have been taking it without considering drug interactions (especially with Coumadin/warfarin!). Overregulation does that - when things are pushed into the "black market", they become far more dangerous. The intense rhetoric that at least suggests that doctors face penalties if they prescribe it makes it so reasonable people cannot know if the doctor is recommending against it based on the patient's best interest anymore. I am not saying ivermectin is effective (I don't know) - I am saying that when the media is saturated with such messaging, that erodes the doctor-patient relation.

On the other hand, it is important to note I have heard people, even infectious disease experts, saying ivermectin itself is potentially dangerous. The telling usually goes like this: "can have serious side-effects which include severe skin rashes, inflammation, low blood pressure and even death." This bit is, in my view, intentionally misleading and a highly dubious thing to do, morally. Like other anti-parasitic drugs, ivermectin has low toxicity in itself. But treating certain parasite infections causes these reactions (Mazzotti reaction - Wikipedia). It is the dying parasite that causes this, not the drug itself. Side effects of the drug itself are generally mild and with decently low occurrence (several occurring at 1-3%, and the rest at post-marketing case report level; nothing remarkable compared to most drugs, there are vitamins with a higher incidence of adverse reactions - https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2009/050742s026lbl.pdf from Warnings and below).

SingularityOne · Oct 10, 2021

For the Orthodox Faithful who are Confused About COVID Vaccines

Lukaris · Oct 10, 2021

ArmyMatt said:
Lord have mercy! I know this topic can get heated, but I do hope you find your way back here, even if it takes a bit.

Yeah, I only thought you were bowing out of the thread.

rusmeister · Oct 10, 2021

truefiction1 said:
Or else his mind is warring against his own conscience and dialoging on this is not helping in that war. That can be excruciatingly upsetting.

I don’t think it’s generally helpful to describe what is going on in other people’s minds. The act of changing one’s mind is something that is not usually facilitated that way.

ArmyMatt · Oct 10, 2021

Lukaris said:
Yeah, I only thought you were bowing out of the thread.

me?

Lukaris · Oct 10, 2021

ArmyMatt said:
me?

I meant Gurney.

ArmyMatt · Oct 10, 2021

Lukaris said:
I meant Gurney.

okay, roger

truefiction1 · Oct 10, 2021

rusmeister said:
I don’t think it’s generally helpful to describe what is going on in other people’s minds. The act of changing one’s mind is something that is not usually facilitated that way.

I agree. But he's left the forum, supposedly, and our minds aren't the root of it.

Refusing to be vaccinated against Covid-19 is a ’sin’ & anti-vaxxers must spend their life repenting

One of God's handmaidens

Active Member

Orthodox Christian

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Regular Member

Active Member

Active Member

A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian

Senior Veteran

Fool

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Orthodox Christian

A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian

Regular Member

Orthodox Christian

Regular Member

Fool

Similar threads