State of the Church - Fr. Peter Heers and Brother Augustine

gurneyhalleck1 said:

You didn't answer my question, but instead used passive-aggressive tactics to evade it. Please answer.

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gurneyhalleck1 said:

I know you love to dissect each and every word, Rus, so I'll be ultra clear---REQUIRED. We were required to wear masks. The choices were to either keep our parish open and keep people coming to the Holy Mysteries, or to shut down. Father opted for the former rather than the latter. To be clear, we had a host of elderly people coming to church and Father himself is a diabetic with an amputated leg and a history of health problems. Father's doctor begged him to wear a mask and to ask the people around him to do the same. The sheriff asked it as well. We complied. Nobody was behind the altar with Father apart from his sons and one altar boy. My boys were not allowed back there, and my feelings were not hurt about that. Likewise, I did not go behind the altar area either as per Father's request. As Reader, I picked up the book from a small table and would read it, again, as per his wishes.

I am not saying Father Heers directly stated we're all going to fry in hell for wearing masks nor am I blaming him for all our strife. If you read my post, I make it clear that many of our parishioners listened to him and then made decisions to not comply and wear masks. Actually, I was ok with that part, but what I was NOT ok with was their gossip about him and our parish council, etc. They spread a lot of ill will and I think much of what many of them did was scandalous in its own way trying to get attention. Am I a watcher of Father Heers? No. And I don't plan to be. Do I see a lot of people acting fanatically and pridefully that are fans of Father Heers? Yes. Can I directly blame him for the "I'm more Catholic than the Pope" holier-than-though folks I know who listen to him? No.

I'm not trying to soften any blows. I think you know that.

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rusmeister said:

Hi! Of course I know that. And I do not mean any conscious intent on your part to do so. Though when we as parents order our children to do things, we usually try to put it in the form of a "request" even if there's nothing optional about it - we want our will complied with with a maximum sense of willingness on the part of others. So willy-nilly there IS an attempt to soften the blow built into the language usage regardless of intent.

I think we can find any number of leaders in the Church who have followers who act fanatically and/or out of pride, sometimes grossly and obviously, sometimes subtly so. Whether that can be attributed to the leader or hierarch really depends.

But when you say "I love to dissect each and every word". you touch on a truth, though your expression seems to suggest that choice of words doesn't matter much, and that all ought to be able to divine your intent regardless of how you put things. I am a word smith, a language guy. I have to teach language at its root level almost every day, professionally. So yes, I am something of an authority on language, just as the mechanic is an authority on automobiles. I do reflexively what my job requires, and I am often forced to think deeper and further than the native speaker who is merely a user rather than a smith, or programmer, if you will, of his language. Most of you never think about how you say what you say. Native speakers spit out whatever's on their minds automatically. It is the teacher of his own language as a foreign one that can see that things are not so simple, that has encountered hundreds and thousands of misunderstandings and interference from an L2 (2nd language). And I have learned that words and word choice matter very much - Leftists understand this; thus their insistence on "politically correct" language. If the good guys understood that better, they would not cede the territory so quickly. Nobody would be using the filthy lying modern language of sexual relations that they actually do, even the most pious believers. No one would be saying "have sex", "sleep with", "be gay", speak of one's sex as one's "gender", of "boyfriends" and "girlfriends" who are neither children nor merely friends. Wickedness would lie bare as wicked, revealed by the language itself.
So yes, I do dissect words and will continue to do so, not as a mere matter of enjoyment, but because I think it helps us get at the truth better. I commend to you the idea of "precision of speech", something beaten into CS Lewis's head by "The Great Knock", his Scottish atheist tutor Kirkpatrick, and of which Chesterton was one of the world's greatest virtuosos. It's a challenge, but if you're ever up to it, Hilaire Belloc wrote a fabulous essay after GK's death, in which precision of speech was one of the six points he laid out. (It's the second point) http://www.gkc.org.uk/gkc/Belloc-essay.txt

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Samizmoot said:

Precision of speech is the hallmark of every great writer.

Even James Joyce was meticulous with his construction of a near-gibberish (to the layman) Finnegan's Wake - a book which has a theme of the confusion of languages and references the Babel story many times as it utilizes words from dozens of languages.

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prodromos said:

I asked you to clarify where I fit in some disparaging remarks you made in another thread to which you never responded.

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gurneyhalleck1 said:

You’d have to show me the quote. I have not disparaged you.

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gurneyhalleck1 said:

You’d have to show me the quote. I have not disparaged you.

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Dorothea said:

I personally felt some guilt and just horrible, wearing a mask in God's House, especially when His Body and Blood were brought out of the altar to receive. I found and still find it blasphemous. Like being in the presence of God offends us, that we have to wear a mask. Granted, I know that's not why masks were worn, but it didn't take away those thoughts deep within me. Unfortunately, I was weak throughout the lockdowns and until the masks were lifted. I complied and shouldn't have. My son, once he realized it wasn't right via the Elders, he never wore one in church again. He'd wait in the narthex or outside the doors before coming in for communion. I admire his strength and conviction and amount of faith. Mine is not as strong. I'm hoping it becomes so.

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rusmeister said:

FWIW, anything we say that directly implies that those who disagree with us are MERELY stupid or insane (as opposed to merely mistaken) is in fact disparaging, however unintentionally. For that reason we must all be extremely careful not to do that. (Not saying that you have, but it's worth considering)

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gurneyhalleck1 said:

I’m simply saying that I don’t know to which post he is referring, Rus.

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SingularityOne said:

Yeah, he is quite balanced I’m my opinion and really is above the right/left dialectic.

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gurneyhalleck1 said:

Have you considered, though, that people were wearing masks to limit exposure not only for themselves, but to make sure they themselves didn’t spread a virus? If I’m wearing a mask to keep my germs from infecting my fellow parishioners, I can’t see that as blasphemy in any way. You’re looking at it from a vantage point of finding Gods house a germy gross cesspool, but most people wore masks to limit their own spread. I could’ve had COVID asymptotically. My intention wouldn’t have been, “Yuck, Gods temple is a toxic soup of germs. These people make me sick!”

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Dorothea said:

No. The exception is if I actually have symptoms, then I would wear a mask so that I'm not spreading germs via coughing or sneezing. The asymptotic argument is neurotic and I think will and have caused people to become neurotic over being sick when they're not. To me, that's common sense. If I'm sick, I stay home. If I have to go out to the grocery while sick, I'd wear a mask.

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