Are there many on this forum who have received the Holy Spirit; with the bible evidence of tongues ?

coffee4u

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Your self does need to be edified but I don't think it should be self edification, do you know what I mean?

Proverbs 27:2


also from Proverbs 27


as you edify others you let others edify you. The only edifying of yourself should be strengthening yourself in the Lord

My point was that if edifying oneself was wrong Paul would have spoken out against it and he didn't.

1 Corinthians 14
14 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit.


What I get from this is it's another way of praying, that is as genuine as praying in your own language aloud or silently. I am not saying pray in tongues with the aim of self edifying but rather if someone prays in tongues privately that is between them and the Lord and if this edifies them as a result then this is a good thing, but not the goal-if that makes sense. Perhaps we view what edify means differently as I see it as strengthening themselves in the Lord.
 
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Jamdoc

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My point was that if edifying oneself was wrong Paul would have spoken out against it and he didn't.

1 Corinthians 14
14 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit.


What I get from this is it's another way of praying, that is as genuine as praying in your own language aloud or silently. I am not saying pray in tongues with the aim of self edifying but rather if someone prays in tongues privately that is between them and the Lord and if this edifies them as a result then this is a good thing, but not the goal-if that makes sense. Perhaps we view what edify means differently as I see it as strengthening themselves in the Lord.

to be honest, if you're going to pray aloud, it's almost better to pray in a language that you don't even know I guess.. cause the enemy can't read minds as God can, but the enemy can listen to spoken prayers.
 
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friend of

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In all honesty, I harbor no ill will against anyone who claims to speak in tongues. From God's vantage point, I'm sure He is well pleased with the faith of those who believe they are pleasing God by speaking in tongues. He surely looks at the heart of those believers and sees that their hearts are aright. I'm sure they are praying their hearts out and God blesses their intentions.

I just think that the vast majority of speaking in tongues is not actually from the Holy Spirit, but from the person themselves. I don't think we can command the Holy Spirit to speak in tongues whenever we want to, as if the Holy Spirit is at our beck and call, waiting on us. I think that authentic tongue speaking happens when the Holy Spirit decides so. That's my take on it.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Your self does need to be edified but I don't think it should be self edification, do you know what I mean?

Proverbs 27:2


also from Proverbs 27


as you edify others you let others edify you. The only edifying of yourself should be strengthening yourself in the Lord
It all has to do with the definition of "edifying". It seems that your first quote from Proverbs is about self-praise, which doesn't fit with Paul's definition of "edify" in 1 Corinthians 14.

Self praise is "έπαινος εαυτού
Strengthen is "ενίσχυση"
Edify is "εποικοδομώ"

The Greek word used in "The one who speaks in tongues edifies himself" is:
edifies himself = "οἰκοδομεῖ ἑαυτὸν" The sense is from the same word as "housebuilder", ie: to construct or confirm. When Paul says that "prophecy edifies the church", he uses the same words: "οἰκοδομεῖ ἐκκλησίαν"

So we see that the Greek for self praise is quite different to what is used as a common Greek dictionary meaning for "edify" and different again in the way that Paul uses it. "oikos" means house, domos means to build. Therefore when Paul says that tongues edifies one's self, he means that speaking in tongues causes the person to build himself up in the same way as a builder constructs a house. In other words the believer, by speaking in tongues, is building up his temple of the Holy Spirit.

It is important to note that the building up is the strengthening of faith in God's Word and hope that when the believer gets to the Judgment he will be confident in the promises that he has been trusting in all his life. It has little to do with improving himself morally or spiritually to make himself into some paragon of virtue or raising to the point where he has "arrived" spiritually and has a special relationship with God over and above the normal "herd". That would be a puffing up with pride rather than as Jude puts it: "building one's self up in our most holy faith."

So, to imply that a person speaking in tongues is merely praising himself or putting himself on some type of spiritual pedestal, is a blatant misquote of the term "edify" in order to deceive people into thinking that all tongues speakers do is to draw attention to themselves as somehow more praiseworthy and spiritual than anyone else.
 
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In all honesty, I harbor no ill will against anyone who claims to speak in tongues. From God's vantage point, I'm sure He is well pleased with the faith of those who believe they are pleasing God by speaking in tongues. He surely looks at the heart of those believers and sees that their hearts are aright. I'm sure they are praying their hearts out and God blesses their intentions.

I just think that the vast majority of speaking in tongues is not actually from the Holy Spirit, but from the person themselves. I don't think we can command the Holy Spirit to speak in tongues whenever we want to, as if the Holy Spirit is at our beck and call, waiting on us. I think that authentic tongue speaking happens when the Holy Spirit decides so. That's my take on it.
What you are actually saying is that when the Holy Spirit does it, the action is involuntary. But something involuntary is not faith, because faith is a voluntary action based on faith in a promise of God. The Scripture says that without faith it is impossible to please God, therefore an involuntary action, being not faith, cannot please or be acceptable to God. Therefore an involuntary action cannot be of the Holy Spirit at all. So if anyone is sitting on the couch waiting for the Holy Spirit to do something without the cooperation of the person believing the promise and acting on it, he will be waiting a very long time and will probably not receive anything.
 
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Jamdoc

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What you are actually saying is that when the Holy Spirit does it, the action is involuntary. But something involuntary is not faith, because faith is a voluntary action based on faith in a promise of God. The Scripture says that without faith it is impossible to please God, therefore an involuntary action, being not faith, cannot please or be acceptable to God. Therefore an involuntary action cannot be of the Holy Spirit at all. So if anyone is sitting on the couch waiting for the Holy Spirit to do something without the cooperation of the person believing the promise and acting on it, he will be waiting a very long time and will probably not receive anything.

So would you agree with me that those people who profess to black out and then have these convulsions and speaking gibberish like they're having a seizure are more likely to be demon possessed than moving through the holy spirit?
Cause that's my fear
(though I think most of it is pretending (or they may have actually had a seizure))
 
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Religiot

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would be interested to know the doctrines ;as most here seem to be just religious !?
You made that up: the love of the truth (Christ) and the love of the brethren (God's sons) is the only evidence of having the Holy Spirit.
 
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topher694

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Ok, I'm going to summarize some teaching for anyone actually interested in learning.

One of the common drumbeats you will hear about tongues is that it must me spoken in a natural language. People point to Acts 2 to validate this as we've seen in this thread. (This ignores the fact that the scripture says the tongues were heard in a natural language, not necessarily spoken in it.)

Another common one, also seen on this thread, is that tongues must be interpreted, or they are not valid. They point to 1 Cor 14:13 for this.

Already we have an issue. If it's spoken in a natural language why would interpretation be needed?

We have two scriptures that are pretty plain that at first glance seem to contradict one another. But God cannot contradict Himself, nor can His word. The answer to this problem lies in 1 Cor 12 where it calls the gift "different kinds of tongues" or diversities of tongues. Natural language only folks try to make that mean different natural languages. Interpretation only folks do something similar. But, what it actually means is that there are different types/manifestations/variations of the supernatural gift of tongues. How do we know this? Because as Paul continues the very same letter he wrote "different kinds of tongues" he goes on to describe 3 major variations.

Paul continues in 1 Cor 13 to give us the proper motivation for operating in the gifts... love. He then continues in 1 Cor 14 to talk mainly about prophecy and tongues. 1 Cor 14:2 says he who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men, but to God, for none understands him (lowercase "h" meaning no one understands the speaker). Verse 4 says he who speaks in a tongue edifies himself. So here we see tongues that others including the speaker cannot understand which have a positive effect (edification). Notice there is no requirement here for the tongues to be interpreted, and they clearly are not a natural language.

Paul then goes on to write quite a bit about the value of tongues for interpretation in a corporate setting. The scripture that best illustrates the difference is 1 Cor 14:5:

I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.
Notice the word unless. This is not saying all tongues MUST be interpreted it is saying there is a different TYPE that CAN be interpreted, and that type provides greater value in a corporate setting because everyone can now understand and be edified.

Then in verse 22, after quoting Isaiah, Paul says, "Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers".

Wait a minute. Didn't he just say that tongues was not for men to understand, but to speak to God? Then he said it was good for tongues to be understood via interpretation so the church could be edified. The church is a body of believers. But here he is saying its not for believers but for unbelievers. If we took the strict one way only interpretation that so many people here promote that would really make Paul schizophrenic or something. He seems to contradict himself mere sentences apart... unless you remember he also wrote 1 Cor 12... "different kinds of tongues"

So what is the tongues for a sign to unbelievers? It's what we see in Acts 2 on the day of Pentecost.

What we have here is 3 different major variations (there are other more minor sub types) that Paul is referencing. And what happens so often today in discussions just like this is people have witness one or have an understanding of one type but jump into a discussion about another type and start throwing around the thinly vailed insults we've already seen.

Now let's take it one step further. Forget about the specific verses and interpretations for a moment and ask yourself these questions:
  • Would God let language stop Him from ministering to a group unbelievers?
  • The power of life and death is in the tongue, right? So would God want to speak life over you personally?
  • Likewise would God want to speak life over a corporate group of believers?
  • Finally, is God capable of overcoming language barriers to accomplish the above?
The implied answer to all the questions is yes, and all of these things are consistent with God's heart, nature, ability and His Word. God is not going to limit tongues to accomplish only one of these things when He could expand them to accomplish all of them.

Again this is intended for anyone who is interested in actually learning about this, and this is only scratching the surface. If your goal is to pick it apart and argue, please just don't even bother.
 
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topher694

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Yeah I was talking about the hearers too.
There were 120 Galileans, they received the Holy Spirit and began talking in other languages they didn't know. They went out to the multitude which contained people gathering for the feast from a bunch of foreign countries.
THEY Recognized the languages that the 120 were speaking, as their native languages.
Those who were Native to Judea from Jerusalem... thought they were drunk, because they didn't understand the languages.

If your point was true, the natives to Jerusalem would have heard Aramaic.
They didn't.
They thought they were drunk.
Or. They were not open to what the Spirit was doing and saying. That happens all the time. Happened to Jesus. Happened to the Apostles. Happens today still. One person receives while the person next to them has no idea what is going on. One's heart is open to receive, another is there to audit and criticize.

‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.’

But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear
 
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topher694

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Accusing all Pentecostals and Charismatics of being false believers comes from a lack of love, and that lack of love is disobeying a direct command from Christ that we love one another. John says that those who do not love, ie: accusing genuine believers of being false and of the devil, do not know God because God is love. Therefore, those who hold up the excesses of a minority and accuse all Pentecostals and Charismatics of doing the same, don't know who the Holy Spirit really is, and also don't know who Jesus really is either. Do they really love God? If showing love to God is expressed in love to Christian brethren, then I would assert that they don't love God at all, but are following some imaginary caricature of God who is not the God of the Bible.
Yep, love is one of the fruits of the Spirit after all... again, you will know them by their fruit.
 
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Jamdoc

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Or. They were not open to what the Spirit was doing and saying. That happens all the time. Happened to Jesus. Happened to the Apostles. Happens today still. One person receives while the person next to them has no idea what is going on. One's heart is open to receive, another is there to audit and criticize.

‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.’

But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear

They were unbelieving Jews who hadn't yet heard the gospel.
so no, the listeners were not filled with the spirit.
the whole point was this was a sign to unbelievers. To cause them to be receptive to the gospel so that they could be saved.
 
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Jamdoc

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Yep, love is one of the fruits of the Spirit after all... again, you will know them by their fruit.

Asking you to be discerning and warning against wanting a gift so badly that people become open to demonic possession is done out of love.
 
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Jamdoc

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Why are you still a sinner?

Same reason you are, we're still human and still have the flesh.
Assuming you're saved, we're forgiven sinners.
 
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topher694

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to be honest, if you're going to pray aloud, it's almost better to pray in a language that you don't even know I guess.. cause the enemy can't read minds as God can, but the enemy can listen to spoken prayers.
This is exactly one of the reasons for this type of tongues. Another is that God can pray out His plan for your life (power of life and death is in the tongue) without you getting in your own way.
 
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Jamdoc

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This is exactly one of the reasons for this type of tongues. Another is that God can pray out His plan for your life (power of life and death is in the tongue) without you getting in your own way.

Other way to do it is to not speak aloud.
I trust that God can still hear me.
 
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topher694

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Asking you to be discerning and warning against wanting a gift so badly that people become open to demonic possession is done out of love.
If you are following one of the principles of love while violating other principles of love, it isn't love.
 
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Jamdoc

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power of life and death is in the brain then?

Do you think God can't hear you?
I know He can.
and I also know that the enemy can't.

Psalm 139
1 O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me.
2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether.

That's one of the things I have faith in, that the Lord can always hear me.
I also don't just pray by setting time aside just to pray... although I do that as well, but like 1 Thessalonians 5:17, you pray without ceasing.. you talk to God constantly in everything you do. You meditate on scriptures, you keep Him in your thoughts just .. constantly it just never ends. You wake up in the morning, your mind is thinking about God, you go through your day, just thinking about and talking to God, pondering His mysteries learning through His word, you're laying down to sleep and even after you've prayed and laid down.. you're still talking to the Lord. It's just central to your life.

It's part of why lip service isn't enough for God.
maybe you're saying grace, your lips move and your voice says the words..
but when it really comes down to it, God knows you're not really that thankful and you're just going through the motions.
So you get convicted. Because it's not the words you said in prayer that meant something, it's the intent you really had (or lack thereof) that matters

Proverbs 21:2
2 Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the Lord pondereth the hearts.

also Romans 8:26
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

The part of our prayer that matters the most, isn't even us it's the Holy Spirit interceding for us.

Now if you're praying with others yeah, someone's gonna lead verbally, but those words verbally, it's not that God needs to hear the words out of someone's mouth, but we do, as humans. It communicates what we as a body are all speaking with God about right? It also edifies everyone listening.

Otherwise.. what's the verbal speech for? Who's it to? God already knows what you're saying to Him before you would say it.

Not that there's anything particularly wrong with praying aloud, even if demons hear it, God would have to give them permission to afflict you anyway.
I just don't like the idea that the enemy could hear my conversation with God anyway. It's an A and B conversation , C your way out right?
 
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