BobRyan

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You are avoiding the issue again. The dead are raised after Satan's little season,

No text says that-- but you seem to like that idea and you have free will - believe it if you wish.

I am sticking with the Bible text telling us both of those events happen at the same point in time - namely (as the text actually says) -- "when the thousand years are completed".

This fits perfectly with the Bible fact that in Rev 19 all of the lost are killed and in Jer 4 the earth is left desolate for 1000 years without any humans on it.
 
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sovereigngrace

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No text says that-- but you seem to like that idea and you have free will - believe it if you wish.

I am sticking with the Bible text telling us both of those events happen at the same point in time - namely (as the text actually says) -- "when the thousand years are completed".

This fits perfectly with the Bible fact that in Rev 19 all of the lost are killed and in Jer 4 the earth is left desolate for 1000 years without any humans on it.

All the main views accept this apart from the SDAs. That speaks volumes. You have to believe this to be part of that grouping. Thankfully, I am not bound by the views of a denomination.

I believe your fight is with the text. It might help you to actually read the text in question instead of advancing what you have been taught.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are,and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Hello! The resurrection of the dead occurs after Satan's little season, not before it.
 
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ewq1938

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The book of Revelation does not have everything in sequence so the destruction at the appearing of Christ shows up in Rev 6, in Rev 14 and in Rev 19, etc.

Sure but Revelation 20 is in chronological order with the resurrection of the unsaved after satan is already in the LOF. The people he earlier went to deceive were still alive and thus never resurrected. It is they that the 1000 year rule of the rod of iron is for. There is no global slaughter at the second coming. It's easy to prove:



How to prove mortals survive the second coming and are ruled over:

Mortals do survive the second coming according to scripture


The arrival of Christ for the second time accomplishes many things including the vials of wrath and destroying the army of the beast at Armageddon as well as resulting in the beast and false prophet being cast into the LOF. There is one more thing mentioned during the second coming that many do not notice which is the future rule over the nations which proves there are unsaved mortals that are set aside for being ruled over by the rod of iron:

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite (Aorist tense verb with PRESENT tense meaning) the nations: and he shall rule (FUTURE tense verb) them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth (PRESENT tense verb) the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


Here rule/poimaino is in the FUTURE tense meaning it will happen at some point AFTER the second coming and battle of Armageddon while treadeth/pateo is written in the PRESENT tense meaning it is happening during this second coming. The treading and smiting are happening at Armageddon but not the ruling which proves mortals will be alive after Armageddon is over. This proves the Premill position because indeed there is a future rule of people who were not slain during the second coming that Christ and his saints will rule over.


A second witness to this:

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

That is the second coming. Everything we read of next comes after the second coming:

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

After "the end" comes, there is given power over the nations to those that are overcomers which naturally includes those who "are alive and remain" at the second coming. They will be given power over the mortal unsaved nations after Christ has returned not before it.

Rev 2:27 And he shall rule (FUTURE tense verb) them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

After the second coming and after "the end" will the overcomers be given power over the nations, ruling them with a rod of iron. That proves the rod of iron rule over the nations for a thousand years does not even start until Christ has returned and has given overcomers this power to rule over the nations.

It is impossible to understand what happens at the second coming and what happens AFTER the second coming properly without understanding the verb tenses involved.

Since scripture does not contradict itself, there are no scriptures which state all mortals are slain at the second coming leaving none to be ruled over.

***************************


Verb tenses are very important and should never be ignored. If I said, "I'm at the store buying (present tense verb) the ingredients for Spaghetti so I can cook (future tense verb) Spaghetti for you." No one should think I was cooking Spaghetti in the store. Clearly the buying is at a different time than the cooking. It's the same with the events of Revelation 19. There are verbs there in the present tense regarding smiting and treading which are violent actions and they take place during that battle. There is another event mentioned there about ruling over people but it is written in the future tense proving it happens AFTER the violent events. The ruling is not happening during the violent events of the second coming and the battle of Armageddon. Furthermore the Greek word for "rule" means to take care as a Shepherd would so the rule is peaceful which makes sense. There is a battle and a lot of killing, then non-military/civilian survivors are cared for in a Shepherding sense. That happened in wars the United States was in such as after WW2 was over, we actually helped Germany and Japan rebuild.
 
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BobRyan

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Rev 20 does teach that all the lost are slain saying specifically that the "rest of the dead did not come to life until after the 1000 years were completed".

The text specifically says that Satan set loose for a little season does NOT happen until that same point namely "when the thousand years are completed".

The chapter is explicit that BOTH events happen at the moment that "thousand year are completed".

This is irrefutable.

3 and he threw him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

... 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

BOTH the little season of satan being loosed and the rest of the dead coming to life happen at the same moment in time namely (named in the text this way) - the thousand years were completed

This is irrefutable.

All the main views accept this apart from the SDAs.

I am ok with that. My preference is the Bible - particularly when the Bible point I highlight is irrefutable.

I believe your fight is with the text.

ok... the text then.

3 and he threw him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

... 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

BOTH the little season of satan being loosed and the rest of the dead coming to life happen at the same moment in time namely (named in the text this way) - the thousand years were completed
 
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sovereigngrace

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I am ok with that. My preference is the Bible - particularly when the Bible point I highlight is irrefutable.



ok... the text then.

3 and he threw him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

... 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

BOTH the little season of satan being loosed and the rest of the dead coming to life happen at the same moment in time namely (named in the text this way) - the thousand years were completed

You need to divorce yourself from what you have been taught. Why are you ignoring verses 11-14?

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are,and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Hello! The resurrection of the dead occurs after Satan's little season, not before it. It is only then that all men are finally and eternally judged.
 
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Timtofly

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I am ok with that. My preference is the Bible - particularly when the Bible point I highlight is irrefutable.



ok... the text then.

3 and he threw him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

... 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

BOTH the little season of satan being loosed and the rest of the dead coming to life happen at the same moment in time namely (named in the text this way) - the thousand years were completed
Until:

"up to the point in time"

This applies to the "not".

Satan is not loosed.

They lived not again.

"Until" does not indicate "at the same time". What is stated is that neither event can happen during the 1000 years. Amil change Scripture. No one can place either event into the Millennium itself, without changing the meaning stated.

The application is that current conditions have to come to a complete fulfillment, even before Satan is given more liberty to decieve the nations. How do we know when current conditions have been fulfilled? The end of a millennium is definite on the last day, all know when it is over. When it comes to symbolic non defined terms, what indicates the end of current conditions?
 
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BobRyan

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I believe your fight is with the text.
"Until" does not indicate "at the same time". What is stated is that neither event can happen during the 1000 years.

It allows for the time pinpointed to be the trigger for both events.

You cannot get out of the car and stretch your legs until the car stops. (for example)

The resurrection of the wicked results in Satan's release from "solitary" - and opens the billions of many nations from all of history as his new group of followers to then lead to make war against the camp of the saints.
 
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BobRyan

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. How do we know when current conditions have been fulfilled? The end of a millennium is definite on the last day, all know when it is over. When it comes to symbolic non defined terms, what indicates the end of current conditions?

The millennium does not start until the future resurrection of all saints in all ages as we see in 1 Thess 4:13-18 and Rev 20:1-5
 
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Timtofly

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It allows for the time pinpointed to be the trigger for both events.

You cannot get out of the car and stretch your legs until the car stops. (for example)

The resurrection of the wicked results in Satan's release from "solitary" - and opens the billions of many nations from all of history as his new group of followers to then lead to make war against the camp of the saints.
Does a police officer hand you a ticket every time your car stops and you get out and stretch your legs?

You are still putting thoughts into Scripture that are not relevant to either events. The two events are not even related.
 
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Timtofly

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The millennium does not start until the future resurrection of all saints in all ages as we see in 1 Thess 4:13-18 and Rev 20:1-5
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is the Second Coming.

Revelation 20:1-5 is not the Second Coming. It is also not the resurrection of all saints of all time. It is not the resurrection of Matthew 27:52-53. That happened at the Cross, not the Second Coming. Bodies already came out of their graves then. Those same bodies will Christ bring with Him at the Second Coming. Christ is even bringing His own physical body at the Second Coming.

The church is already in Paradise, except for the alive walking around on earth part of the church. That fact keeps growing day after day, and has been for the last 1991 years. One can safely say, the majority are all waiting to return with Christ to meet us, on earth, in the air.

So we see that in Revelation 20, we have a list of specific people who were beheaded, who did not take the mark handed out in the prior 42 months. This is probably not the limit, but it certainly does not describe the church of all time from Abel till now. We know Abel was murdered, but not that he lost his head for not taking the mark in the 42 months prior to this resurrection in Revelation 20:4. These dead are not even the one's waiting for more dead to come along. These dead may be the ones who were being waited for.

The only fact we do know is that Jesus Christ just killed the last of Adam's flesh and blood at Armageddon. Only a resurrection can populate the earth. Not all people are resurrected to accomplish this. Certainly more than the 8 souls who populated the earth after the Flood. The 144k male virgins from every tribe listed in Revelation will populate Israel from those 12 tribes mentioned. Some from every nation will have been beheaded. They will restore all the nations necessary in the Millennium. The Millennium is not for the church. That is what Paradise is for. God allows the earth one last Millennium to do what was intended from the very beginning before sin entered the world. Now Adam's family is tucked away safe in Paradise, the rest of mankind will enjoy earth for 1000 years.
 
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sovereigngrace

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It allows for the time pinpointed to be the trigger for both events.

You cannot get out of the car and stretch your legs until the car stops. (for example)

The resurrection of the wicked results in Satan's release from "solitary" - and opens the billions of many nations from all of history as his new group of followers to then lead to make war against the camp of the saints.

So, you are determined to ignore the timing of the resurrection of the dead and judgment that arrives at the end of Satan's little season when Jesus comes sitting on the throne of His glory? You have to do that to sustain your SDA teaching. Your denomination does not countenance dissent.
 
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ewq1938

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BOTH the little season of satan being loosed and the rest of the dead coming to life happen at the same moment in time

Joh_5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Damnation means judgment so this is a resurrection to be judged.

That means the resurrection of the unsaved happens when they are to be judged, not a season before that so they can have a resurrection of going to war.


Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

(Resurrection happens for the unsaved)

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The resurrection happens above, not in satan's little season. The people he deceives are alive and will die at Jerusalem and THEN they shall be resurrected. You can be resurrected if you hadn't yet died.

If your view was correct then people would have a resurrection, die by fire outside of Jerusalem and then have a second resurrection to be judged. No scripture says they get two resurrections.
 
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Jamdoc

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TWO definitions for "second coming"
1. Jesus "comes again" John 14:1-3 at His "appearing" to rapture the saints to heaven.

2. Jesus "comes to Earth to reign" - in Rev 21 (and is implied in portions of Rev 20 after the 1000 years)

One flawed definition for second coming
1. Jesus comes to rule over sinners and saints for a few years.

1000 year millennium

Only Rev 20 contains explicit reference to the future 1000 year millennium AND contains a continuation of the events discussed in Rev 19 - at Christ's appearing in the sky with the armies of heaven.

==========================================

In Rev 19 and 20 we can see that the appearing of Christ, resurrection of the saints, destruction of the wicked - takes place pre-mill.

In 1 Thess 4:13-18 we see that at the appearing of Christ - the saints are raptured - to heaven.

In John 13:36 Simon Peter *said to Him, “Lord, where are You going?” Jesus answered, “Where I am going, you cannot follow Me now; but you will follow later.”

In John 14:1-3 we see that Jesus "comes gain" to take the saints to His Father's house.
“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many rooms; if that were not so, I would have told you, because I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will take you to Myself, so that where I am, there you also will be

John 17:11 I am no longer going to be in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, so that they may be one just as We are.

24 Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.


Post-Trib Rapture

Matt 24
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

2 Thess 2:1 Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit, or a message, or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 No one is to deceive you in any way! For it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction

I'd agree but with one stipulation.

When does the Tribulation end?

If you say after the 7th vial, you're wrong.

Revelation 6:12-17
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

anything taking place after the 6th seal, is not Tribulation. Because Jesus said that the sun and moon darken immediately after the tribulation.

you might say, "what about the mark of the beast, Revelation 13?"

That happens before the 6th seal Chronologically, considering chapter 12 of Revelation goes back to the birth of Christ.

to further illustrate this let's look at the 7th trumpet
Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

So, Jesus has come to set up His millennial Kingdom at this time.

Now.. Jump to Revelation 16
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

Who's kingdom?
The beast.
So who has earthly authority at the time of the 5th vial?
The beast.

So.
You either believe that Jesus' first act as King of the Earth is to hand over authority to Satan, so he in turn can give that authority to the beast as told in Revelation 13:2.

Or you can recognize that the 5th vial, takes place before the 7th trumpet.
and understand that the mark of the beast takes place before the 6th seal

and that the 6th seal takes place after the tribulation.
and that anything past the sixth seal is not the tribulation, but is in fact God's wrath, as declared in Revelation 6:17.

I want to point out one last thing

Luke 17
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

What Jesus is illustrating here is not just the character of the types of wickedness of the state of the world just before He comes back. That is a point, but the real point Jesus is making, is that as soon as Noah boarded the Ark, the flood came. Noah is a picture of the rapture, taken to safety, just before the wrath of God hit the world. Just after Lot was taken away from Sodom, the wrath of God destroyed Sodom. The same day.

So.. what Jesus is telling us is that RIGHT AFTER the rapture, after the saints are taken to safety.... the wrath of God hits. Sudden destruction.

and what do we see in Revelation?

again Revelation 6:17
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
It's not it already did come and now we recognize it, it's not it came years ago.. it's IS COME. Present tense. It arrived just then. Anything before this, was not the wrath of God. Anything after this, is.
and what happens after this?

Revelation 8
1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

So.. the same day that Jesus raptures the saints (see Revelation 7 for the result).. fire and hail rain down on the earth and destroy 1/3 of the trees and burn up all the green grass. Bam, just like that.

it's consistent with Noah, and Lot.
the elect taken to safety... then suddenly wrath of God.
 
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BobRyan

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I'd agree but with one stipulation.

I don't think there is any Baptist version that has what I posted because all versions miss the following

1. The Rapture event of 1 Thess 4:13-18 happens in Rev 19 where all the saints are raptured to heaven and "the rest were killed by the sword that comes from His mouth" as Rev 19 says.
2. That results in a desolate Earth with no humans on it as Jer 4 points out and as Rev 19 points out when it says the "rest were killed".
3. This means the saints are with Christ in heaven for the 1000 years and Satan is left on Earth with no humans to torment for that 1000 years.

BTW -- this is the ONLY version of the appearing of Christ where "it matters" if you don't know it. Just like it "mattered" at the flood if you did not know about the ark and it mattered at the time of John the baptizer if you did not know he had pointed to the Carpenter from Nazareth as the promised Messiah.

For those who live through this event in the future it will matter if they know the Bible version that is pointed out by the above texts - or not.

When does the Tribulation end?

If you say after the 7th vial, you're wrong.

Revelation 6:12-17

The Rev 6 point is the one where Christ appears, which is also what we see in Rev 19, and it is also what we see in Rev 14 at the end of the chapter and is also what we see in 2 Thess 1, and in Matt 24 and in 1 Thess 4:13-18.

Peter says this "fix your hope COMPLETELY on the revelation of Jesus Christ"

13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Daniel 7 says that the persecution of the saints ends when Christ takes over - destroying the wicked and rescuing the saints.
 
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BobRyan

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Joh_5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

True - but that is two different resurrections just as Rev 20:3-6 points out. And those two resurrections are separated by 1000 years as Rev 20 informs us. No other writer addresses the 1000 years with its relationship to those two resurrections.

Damnation means judgment so this is a resurrection to be judged.

That means the resurrection of the unsaved happens when they are to be judged

True - as Rev 20 points out - but it does not mean that their judgment moment happens instantly upon the instant of resurrection.

In Rev 20 they are gathered together and make war against the saints first -- as they surround the holy city. That summary statement is expanded later in that same chapter to show us that the second resurrection is what brings them all to life after the Rev 19 event ends all human life on Earth and this , Satan has them all gathered around the holy City. And that is where the Throne of God is - it is where the judgment event happens for all the wicked who are then cast into the lake of fire.

If your view was correct then people would have a resurrection, die by fire outside of Jerusalem and then have a second resurrection to be judged. No scripture says they get two resurrections.

I can't figure out how you are getting that idea from my statements.

In this view there is only ONE resurrection at the end of the 1000 years and only ONE lake of Fire and only ONE judgment , only ONE gathering of the wicked.

In this SUMMARY Rev 20:7-10
1. the 1000 years are completed -
2. which means the wicked are resurrected and Satan is loosed.
3. They surround the city of the saints
4. Fire burns up the wicked in a lake of fire and brimstone.



7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

IN the "expanded details" for that same summary Rev 20:11-15
1. The wicked are resurrected (no longer just implied)
2. They are around the throne of God (which is in the holy city)
3. They are all judged
4. They are all cast into the lake of fire and brimstone.

The "expanded details" informs us of the details in the judgment event and the explicit statement on the 2nd resurrection which is how we get from desolate Earth to an Earth populated by all the wicked of all time.
 
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Jamdoc

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I don't think there is any Baptist version that has what I posted because all versions miss the following

1. The Rapture event of 1 Thess 4:13-18 happens in Rev 19
Full stop.
as soon as you say Revelation 19, you're instantly wrong.
Revelation 19 is nothing like 1 Thessalonians 4, or Matthew 24.
Revelation 6 is, at the 6th seal, which precedes the trumpets and vials.

BTW -- this is the ONLY version of the appearing of Christ where "it matters" if you don't know it. Just like it "mattered" at the flood if you did not know about the ark and it mattered at the time of John the baptizer if you did not know he had pointed to the Carpenter from Nazareth as the promised Messiah.

If you're left on the earth at the 6th seal, you go through the wrath of God, and you won't be resurrected for over 1000 years. So that matters.

The Rev 6 point is the one where Christ appears, which is also what we see in Rev 19, and it is also what we see in Rev 14 at the end of the chapter and is also what we see in 2 Thess 1, and in Matt 24 and in 1 Thess 4:13-18.
The coming in the clouds has nothing in common with Armageddon. The coming in the clouds resurrects the dead and catches up the living in Christ.
Coming down for Armageddon comes with those saints, and nobody's resurrected but a lot of people are killed instead.
Zechariah 12, Matthew 24, and Revelation 6 the tribes of the earth mourn and hide
Zechariah 14, and Revelation 19 they fight.
different events.
it doesn't fit the consistent narrative either, that the saved are taken to safety JUST BEFORE the wrath of God.
Revelation 19 is at the end of the wrath of God.
Revelation 6 is just before it.
The 7th seal is broken the same day as the 6th seal, and half an hour after the 7th seal, fire rains down from heaven and burns up all the green grass.

Conflating the wrath of God with "the tribulation" is your problem rather than using Jesus' definition of Tribulation.

Now Revelation 14, that is correct.
Revelation has the same period of time told twice. Think of it like we have I Kings and II Kings, and I Chronicles and II Chronicles. Kings and Chronicles tell the same narrative from different points of view and different details.
But the 2 narratives both tell a sequence of Tribulation, the coming of the Lord on the clouds, the wrath of God, and the Lord establishing His earthly Kingdom.
 
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ewq1938

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True - but that is two different resurrections just as Rev 20:3-6 points out. And those two resurrections are separated by 1000 years as Rev 20 informs us. No other writer addresses the 1000 years with its relationship to those two resurrections.

You missed the point. The second resurrection is a resurrection to damnation/judgement so they resurrected resurrected and then judged. There is no resurrection for them to try to attack Jerusalem. It's being resurrected and then judged, that's what the second resurrection is.




True - as Rev 20 points out - but it does not mean that their judgment moment happens instantly upon the instant of resurrection.


It does mean that and that's what we see in the part where they come from places like hell, death and the sea...they are being resurrected from those places and coming to be judged.


In Rev 20 they are gathered together and make war against the saints first

No, those people are still alive and will be killed and only then will they be resurrected.



it is where the judgment event happens for all the wicked who are then cast into the lake of fire.


No, the place of judgement is not on the Earth according to Revelation 20:11




In this view there is only ONE resurrection at the end of the 1000 years and only ONE lake of Fire and only ONE judgment , only ONE gathering of the wicked.


Your view has a resurrection before people surround Jerusalem, then they are killed, then they would have to be resurrected again to be judged at the GWTJ.



In this SUMMARY Rev 20:7-10
1. the 1000 years are completed -
2. which means the wicked are resurrected and Satan is loosed.
3. They surround the city of the saints
4. Fire burns up the wicked in a lake of fire and brimstone.

The fire from heaven is not related to the LOF.



IN the "expanded details" for that same summary Rev 20:11-15

2. They are around the throne of God (which is in the holy city)

That happens in verse 9 not in 11-15 and that is BEFORE any of the unsaved are resurrected.




The "expanded details" informs us of the details in the judgment event and the explicit statement on the 2nd resurrection which is how we get from desolate Earth to an Earth populated by all the wicked of all time.


There was never a desolated, unpopulated Earth anywhere in Revelation.
 
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BobRyan

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The second resurrection is a resurrection to damnation/judgement

So far that is the one point where we all agree apparently. They are resurrected - and Satan has them to get them to surround the city - where they are then judged and consumed in the lake of fire.
 
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So far that is the one point where we all agree apparently. They are resurrected - and Satan has them to get them to surround the city - where they are then judged and consumed in the lake of fire.

No, we don't agree. The fire killing them at Jerusalem is not the same as the GWTJ and the LOF punishment. Those who die by the fire at Jerusalem will take part in the second resurrection that happens at Revelation 20:11-12. There was no resurrection of any of the unsaved prior to those verses.
 
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That happens in verse 9 not in 11-15 and that is BEFORE any of the unsaved are resurrected.

As I have stated repeatedly - vs 7-10 is a summary statement of the resurrected wicked surrounding the city of the saints and then destroyed by fire.

Vs 11-15 adds detail - including the fact that they are judged before being cast into that lake of fire.

-----

Summary ... then details added.

Same thing in Gen 1:1 - God creates everything.
Gen 1:3 - through Gen 2:3 details added: God creates Earth and all life on Earth in 7 days.
Gen 2:4 through the end of the chapter -- details added. Marriage, Adam created first, Man formed from the dust of the ground, Tree of knowledge of good and evil, Marriage etc.

The Bible starts with that form of writing and John is still using it in Rev 20.
 
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