20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

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keras

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Not climactic? Are you joking? How can it not be climactic when Paul specifically says "they shall not escape" from it?
'they' are the attackers of Israel, Psalms 83, Jeremiah 49:35-37, Micah 4:11-12 and those described in Isaiah 66:17, Ezekiel 7:10-17
The people who remain alive will be all the faithful Christians and many others who will establish a World Government. As Daniel 7:23-24 and Revelation 17:9-13 prophesies.
Do "many, if not most" people in the world have caves or underground shelters that they can hide in? Certainly not
We will have 24 hours to find cover, the time it takes for the fiery mass of a CME to reach earth.
Most people will find somewhere, like their basement, or a insulated room, etc. Caves may not be so wise, because of the earthquakes.
Peter indicates clearly in that passage that he is talking about things related to "His coming". How many times do you think Jesus is coming in the future? It will only be once. Scripture does not say He will come down from heaven more than once in the future. So, 2 Peter 3 has to be about His return.
The Lord will SEND His fiery wrath: Psalms 11:4-6, Amos 1 and 2:1-5
He won't be seen on His Day of fiery wrath: Psalms 18:11, Habakkuk 2:4
Paul makes very clear what this wrath entails on the following page of your bible in 2Thess 1.
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 is not a prophecy about the Return of Jesus. It relates to the Sixth Seal and all the graphic prophesies of His terrible Day of fiery wrath. Later, Jesus will be seen by His people; Revelation 14:1

The Return years later, is not in fire, but in power and glory as the 3 prophesies about that great Day tell us. Matthew 24:30, Zechariah 14:3, Revelation 19:11. ALL show how His wrath is over by then.
 
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jeffweedaman

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2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 is not a prophecy about the Return of Jesus.


Yes it is.
When Jesus appears we will be like him for we shall see him as he is. This means we are Glorified in him on the day he eternally separates the rest of mankind.



This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,

8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.
 
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Timtofly

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Address the issues above. 2 Peter 3 forbids Premil. Why can you not admit it?
It is not about scoffers 1000 years from now. It is about scoffers who deny the change of a new heaven and earth.
 
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keras

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Yes it is.
When Jesus appears we will be like him for we shall see him as he is. This means we are Glorified in him on the day he eternally separates the rest of mankind.
Opinions are valueless.
2 Thess 1:6-10 simply does not fit with the 3 definitive prophesies about the Return.
The idea of 'glorification' before the GWT Judgment and the Book of Life being opened, is a false teaching, just a fable and part of the never going to happen 'rapture to heaven' theory.
 
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jeffweedaman

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Opinions are valueless.

Yes. That's why I quoted Paul.

[ Quote Keras ] The idea of 'glorification' before the GWT Judgment and the Book of Life being opened, is a false teaching]

I agree. I am not promoting that idea.
You are the one that is messing with the timing by adding a thousand years to THAT DAY in 2 thess 1
 
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keras

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You are the one that is messing with the timing by adding a thousand years to THAT DAY in 2 thess 1
That is not what I do at all.
The event described in 2 Thess 1:6-10, refers to the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. Jesus will be revealed to His own people then. Rev 14:1

The 1000 years comes after Jesus has Returned; seen by everyone.
 
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ShineyDays2

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It is about scoffers who deny the change of a new heaven and earth.
Since when and where do you see an Amils on this thread that denies that there will be a New Heavens and a new earth after Rev 21:1-2,10...."1) Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2)And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God...10b) and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God..."

Please tell me what Amil denies this?
 
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sovereigngrace

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That is not what I do at all.
The event described in 2 Thess 1:6-10, refers to the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. Jesus will be revealed to His own people then. Rev 14:1

The 1000 years comes after Jesus has Returned; seen by everyone.

Until you see the recaps in Revelation you will never see what the author was teaching.
 
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keras

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Until you see the recaps in Revelation you will never see what the author was teaching.
Revelation is a narrative, basically; with flashbacks of more detail.
It will all take place as described, allegories excepted. Why not?
Do you include yours too?
Yes.
What I do is to provide a Prophecy and then use other scripture to help explain it. Also modern knowledge and common sense.

Here's an opinion: Nobody here will change their beliefs about when the 1000 years of Revelation 20 happens.
Here's a fact:
Isaiah 29:23-24 ...when My people see what I have done in their midst, then they will praise their Maker and regard the Lord with awe and the confused will gain understanding and the obstinate will accept instruction. Isaiah 35:5-6

Isaiah 32:3-4 Then My people will see and hear clearly, those who could not ‘see it’ or ‘hear the prophetic message’, will finally understand and know the truth.
Then, what I have done;
will be the Sixth Seal disaster.
the confused and the obstinate; those who are locked into false teachings.
 
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Timtofly

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Since when and where do you see an Amils on this thread that denies that there will be a New Heavens and a new earth after Rev 21:1-2,10...."1) Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2)And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God...10b) and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God..."

Please tell me what Amil denies this?
I never claimed Amil are scoffers.

The alledged claim was that premil are scoffers 1000 years from now. Ask SG about that, not me.

There was a new heaven and earth after the Flood and there will be one after the Second Coming. Scoffers are those who claim no change at all since creation. That was 1900+ years ago.

Today is a totally different animal. Scoffers who claim evolutionary change over billions of years, instead of the actual creation. They even deny a Flood that covered the whole earth, dismissing Genesis as a mythology of ancient people, who did not know anything.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I never claimed Amil are scoffers.

The alledged claim was that premil are scoffers 1000 years from now. Ask SG about that, not me.

There was a new heaven and earth after the Flood and there will be one after the Second Coming. Scoffers are those who claim no change at all since creation. That was 1900+ years ago.

Today is a totally different animal. Scoffers who claim evolutionary change over billions of years, instead of the actual creation. They even deny a Flood that covered the whole earth, dismissing Genesis as a mythology of ancient people, who did not know anything.

Stop misrepresenting me. I never said "premil are scoffers 1000 years from now." I said Premil would have the scoffers scoffing 1000 years after the second coming with their theology. You are obviously running out of arguments.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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'they' are the attackers of Israel, Psalms 83, Jeremiah 49:35-37, Micah 4:11-12 and those described in Isaiah 66:17, Ezekiel 7:10-17
The people who remain alive will be all the faithful Christians and many others who will establish a World Government. As Daniel 7:23-24 and Revelation 17:9-13 prophesies.
No, Paul was speaking of the same day of the Lord that will come as a thief in the night that Peter wrote about in 2 Peter 3:10-12. Peter made it quite clear that the "sudden destruction" from which "they will not escape" will be by fire and it will be global. The ones who will not escape are those "that know not God and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ".

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

The ones who escape will be all believers who will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17).

We will have 24 hours to find cover, the time it takes for the fiery mass of a CME to reach earth.
There is nothing in scripture which says anything about this. You have to resort to making things up in order to try to keep your doctrine afloat.

Most people will find somewhere, like their basement, or a insulated room, etc. Caves may not be so wise, because of the earthquakes.
You have to be kidding. This can't be taken seriously. A basement or insulated room would not allow people to survive the kind of thing that you're talking about. That's ridiculous. It's interesting how you're suddenly changed your tune after previously saying they would hide in caves or in underground bunkers. Now insulated rooms or basements would be enough? Nonsense.

The Lord will SEND His fiery wrath: Psalms 11:4-6, Amos 1 and 2:1-5
He won't be seen on His Day of fiery wrath: Psalms 18:11, Habakkuk 2:4

2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 is not a prophecy about the Return of Jesus. It relates to the Sixth Seal and all the graphic prophesies of His terrible Day of fiery wrath. Later, Jesus will be seen by His people; Revelation 14:1
Nope. That's utter nonsense and can't be taken seriously. He's only descending from heaven once and He's not going to take His time and taking vengeance on all who don't believe in Him while gathering His own to Himself "in the air".

The Return years later, is not in fire, but in power and glory as the 3 prophesies about that great Day tell us. Matthew 24:30, Zechariah 14:3, Revelation 19:11. ALL show how His wrath is over by then.
The Return years later? Nowhere does scripture indicate that in the future He will descend from heaven only to ascend to heaven again and then descend from heaven again years later. That scenario does not line up with what scripture teaches at all.
 
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I never claimed Amil are scoffers.

The alledged claim was that premil are scoffers 1000 years from now. Ask SG about that, not me.
No one claimed that. You have once again made a false accusation. Do you do that on purpose or are you just ignorant?

There was a new heaven and earth after the Flood and there will be one after the Second Coming. Scoffers are those who claim no change at all since creation. That was 1900+ years ago.
Peter wrote about scoffers in the last days scoffing at the idea of the second coming of Christ (2 Peter 3:3-4). That was not 1900+ years ago. The point being made about those last days scoffers is that it doesn't make sense to think that Christ will take vengeance on them 1000+ years after His second coming, as premils believe, instead of on the day of His second coming, as Amils believe.

Why would He wait to take vengeance on those last days scoffers? When He comes again it will prove they were wrong about Him, so why would He wait to take His vengeance on them on that day when He comes again? Do you understand that the wrath that will come down on the day Jesus returns is reserved for people like those last days scoffers who think He isn't going to return?[/QUOTE]
 
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Timtofly

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Stop misrepresenting me. I never said "premil are scoffers 1000 years from now." I said Premil would have the scoffers scoffing 1000 years after the second coming with their theology. You are obviously running out of arguments.
If you claim Premil is wrong does it matter the when? Premil will be mocking Amil at the end of the 1000 years, because Amil will have been wrong for 1000 years. Do you think Amil will give up their ideology at any point during those 1000 years?

I am not as good as some people making stuff up just to argue. You still have not answered why Satan was not placed in the LoF at the same time at Armageddon as the beast and the FP.
 
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No one claimed that. You have once again made a false accusation. Do you do that on purpose or are you just ignorant?

Peter wrote about scoffers in the last days scoffing at the idea of the second coming of Christ (2 Peter 3:3-4). That was not 1900+ years ago. The point being made about those last days scoffers is that it doesn't make sense to think that Christ will take vengeance on them 1000+ years after His second coming, as premils believe, instead of on the day of His second coming, as Amils believe.

Why would He wait to take vengeance on those last days scoffers? When He comes again it will prove they were wrong about Him, so why would He wait to take His vengeance on them on that day when He comes again? Do you understand that the wrath that will come down on the day Jesus returns is reserved for people like those last days scoffers who think He isn't going to return?


I said Peter wrote that 1900 + years ago.

Why would Premil be scoffing right now?
 
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keras

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There is nothing in scripture which says anything about this.
Again you display your severe lack of Bible knowledge:

From what little information is available on Coronal Mass Ejections, It seems that initially a powerful light flash will be seen on earth. Isaiah 30:26
The electro-magnetic effect of this causes earthquakes and electrical system meltdown, then the main mass of super heated, highly charged hydrogen plasma arrives 18-36 hours later. This plasma affects the earth for one day, as it rotates, depending on the size of the ejection. Then the CME carries on into outer space. These Bible prophecies tell of that period between the light flash and the main strike:

Jeremiah 6:24-26 News of them [the coming disaster] has reached us and our hands hang limp, agony grips us, like a woman in labour. Do not go outside for terror is spread all around. In an instant, the despoiler is upon us.

Jeremiah 30:6-7 Every man grips his sides and every face turns pale. How awful is that Day. It is a time of trouble for the descendants of Jacob, but some will be rescued out of it.

Ezekiel 7:17 Every hand hangs limp, fright will cause their knees to be wet with urine.

Ezekiel 21:5-7a All shall know that I, the Lord has drawn My sword.... groan bitterly until you collapse. All hearts will melt, all hands hang limp, all courage will fail.

Zephaniah 3:14-16 Zion: cry out for joy – the Lord has swept away your enemies. On that Day, this is the message for Jerusalem; fear not, let not your hands hang limp.

Signs in the heavens just before the Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath;

Joel 2:31 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and terrible Day of the Lord. Luke 21:26

Acts 2:19-20 I will show wonders in the sky and signs on the earth; blood, fire and smoke. The sun will be darkened and the moon blood red, before the Great Day of the Lord.

Isaiah 13:9-13 The Day of the Lord is coming, that cruel Day of wrath and fierce anger, to reduce the earth to a desolation and to destroy all the wicked there. The sun, moon and stars will give no light. Humans will become scarce, as rare as fine gold and the earth will quake at the wrath of God on the Day of His blazing anger. Ezekiel 21:7b, Isaiah 30:26-28

Ezekiel 32:7-8 When I judge you [Egypt] I shall veil the sky and darken the sun with clouds, the moon will give no light. Darkness will cover your land.
Isaiah 24:21-23 On that Day, the Lord will punish in heaven, the host of heaven and on earth, the kings of the earth. The moon will grow pale and the sun will be darkened.

Joel 2:10 At their onset [the ‘vast host’] the earth shakes and the heavens shudder. The sun and moon are darkened and the stars give no light.

Isaiah 34:4 The heavens will roll up like a scroll, their host will fall like ripe fruit. [our satellites]

Revelation 6:12-14 – The Sixth Seal; There was a great earthquake and the sun turned black as a funeral pall and the moon blood red, the starry host fell and the sky rolled up like a scroll.



Signs of the Return of Jesus - a much different and years later event from the Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath;

Matthew 24:29-30. As soon as that time of distress [the Great Tribulation] has passed, the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give her light, stars will fall [meteors] and the heavenly power will be shaken...then all will see Him coming on the clouds.
Reference: REB. some verses abridged.

The sun will be darkened at the Return; referred to as the Great Day of the Sovereign Lord, Rev. 16:14 - this is to highlight that event. That darkening is not the same as what is described at the much earlier, soon to happen, Lords Day of vengeance and wrath. This will be because an enormous mass is approaching, obscuring the sun and then, when it hits, by the smoke from the fires and volcanoes. The moon will shine blood red from a thermoluminescent reaction with the moon dust.

That the Lord has in the past and will again in the future cause a ‘darkening’, other than a CME, is shown by Exodus 10:21-22, Luke 23:44-45, Revelation 16:10.
 
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ShineyDays2

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Your very critical put down of my posts shows a intransigent attitude to the presentation of Bible Prophesies which conflict with your beliefs.
Who is right: you or the Bible Prophets?

Your very critical put down of my posts
It was a justifiable critique of how you misuse scripture to promote an agenda that I proved to be bordering on absurdity because "no one can survive" those temperatures you said were 250 degrees even if God does choose to cleanse the earth by fire, real fire or not, at the end of the world via a CME.
Your very critical put down of my posts shows a intransigent attitude to the presentation
My "attitude" was correct....It was to expose the inappropriate use of scripture over and over again by manipulating your way into other peoples post when their subject of discussion does not pertain to CME's at all.
of Bible Prophesies which conflict with your beliefs
About your "presentation of Bible Prophets?" Most, but not all, of your use of scripture is a great example of how Satan misused scripture to Eve and especially how he used it in the Temptation of Jesus. I actually appreciate your misusing scripture because it sends me back to scripture to confirm my beliefs and what to ignore as false doctrines. That is the best way for me, or anyone else, to verify that God's Word is solid, man's way is not and I do not see you as a "true messenger sent by God" as you claim to be.
Who is right: you or the Bible Prophets?
Who is right? Me or the Bible Prophets? I am not always right any more than you are. We all get something wrong at some point. But the difference is that when a born-again Christian sees that they are wrong about what scripture says they change it. But I do not see you being committed to that standard. Instead, you defend clearly presented untruths by insulting and belittling those who bring them to your attention. You seem to have yourself on a throne looking down at us ignorant peons who are destined to hell for challenging your doctrines.

However, your use of the term "Bible Prophets" indicates to me that this is at the root of your misuse of the OT prophets because that is not the way that NT believers are to get their sole beliefs out of. As you have been told multiple times, "the OT points the way to the New Testament/Covenant which you deny exists presently." Rarely, if ever do I see you stating any OT verses that the NT clearly states have been fulfilled because you would then have to give up your obsession with CME's.
 
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Timtofly

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It was a justifiable critique of how you misuse scripture to promote an agenda that I proved to be bordering on absurdity because "no one can survive" those temperatures you said were 250 degrees even if God does choose to cleanse the earth by fire, real fire or not, at the end of the world via a CME.My "attitude" was correct....It was to expose the inappropriate use of scripture over and over again by manipulating your way into other peoples post when their subject of discussion does not pertain to CME's at all. About your "presentation of Bible Prophets?" Most, but not all, of your use of scripture is a great example of how Satan misused scripture to Eve and especially how he used it in the Temptation of Jesus. I actually appreciate your misusing scripture because it sends me back to scripture to confirm my beliefs and what to ignore as false doctrines. That is the best way for me, or anyone else, to verify that God's Word is solid, man's way is not and I do not see you as a "true messenger sent by God" as you claim to be. Who is right? Me or the Bible Prophets? I am not always right any more than you are. We all get something wrong at some point. But the difference is that when a born-again Christian sees that they are wrong about what scripture says they change it. But I do not see you being committed to that standard. Instead, you defend clearly presented untruths by insulting and belittling those who bring them to your attention. You seem to have yourself on a throne looking down at us ignorant peons who are destined to hell for challenging your doctrines.

However, your use of the term "Bible Prophets" indicates to me that this is at the root of your misuse of the OT prophets because that is not the way that NT believers are to get their sole beliefs out of. As you have been told multiple times, "the OT points the way to the New Testament/Covenant which you deny exists presently." Rarely, if ever do I see you stating any OT verses that the NT clearly states have been fulfilled because you would then have to give up your obsession with CME's.
If a sun did exist that could put out a cme, that would still be more believable, than for some to declare Christ will not reign on earth for 1000 years in Jerusalem.
 
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