Is there salvation without Mary?

robycop3 said:

There are non-Christians among them, including quasi/pseudo ones.

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robycop3 said:

No; God's chosen penmen, such as Moses & some of the apostles wrote the Bible. Later, men collated those writings & placed them in one book.

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robycop3 said:

There are non-Christians among them, including quasi/pseudo ones.

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robycop3 said:

Newp! Mine has SCRIPTURAL PROOF.

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bbbbbbb said:

Simply because the other poster seems to be quite intent on the idea that Jerome, being a saint, fully embraced the deutercanonical books as the inspired word of God. From a scholarly standpoint he did not, if, in actual fact, he used the Hebrew text rather than the Septuagint for his translation of the Old Testament. Whatever one might wish to think about the man, one can only alter facts to one's peril.

By the way, perhaps you can help me out and provide a list of doctrines that solely emanate from the deutercanonical books.

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revybub said:

Ditto. Though she was chosen to be the door to bring Jesus into the world in human form. She was still just a human. He is the savior. And son of our Father God.

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LucianoCardoso said:

"Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." - Acts 4:10-12

"That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ." - 1 John 1:3

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" - 1 Timothy 2:5

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Valletta said:

Having previously read what Jerome actually about the deuterocanonicals, I wondered where you came up with your allegations against Jerome. You tried to make it look like Wikipedia backed up your claims, when in fact the excerpts you provided were different than your allegations against Jerome. Now you are posting speculation about what my ideas on Jerome may be, and are trying to change subjects--chaining to the subject of what text Jerome used for the translations. Have you actually ever read what Jerome himself said about the deuterocanonicals?

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bbbbbbb said:

I have nothing at all against Jerome. In fact, I greatly admire him and his herculean output, not just of the translation of the entire Bible, which is no mean task for any one individual, but also of his great outpouring of other writings. I have the utmost respect for him and his decision to use the Hebrew manuscripts (mostly) for the Old Testament and not the Greek translation from the Hebrew, aka Septuagint. The fact that the Hebrew Old Testament does not contain the deutercanonical books certainly posed a problem and he determined not to translate those books.

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The Liturgist said:

You know, every time you or @ViaCrucis post something, I agree with it. I guess this is because even though I am not at present a member of a Lutheran church, although in my youth I was for a time a member of an LCMS and later a traditional ELCA parish (the one in Solvang, years before that wacky Finnish pastor took over), I am an Evangelical Catholic Congregationalist, which is basically equivalent to being LCMS. I am really just trying to preserve some of the beauty of the Congregational liturgy Devotional Services, by Rev. John Hunter, which is the best entirely new liturgical service book written since The Book of Common Prayer. (With the possible exception of the exquisite older Moravian hymnals, although they are complex and I don’t fully understand how they work, and it looks like at present they are using a boring liturgy not very much different from the other mainline churches + the RCL, also, sadly, the Moravian bishops are extremely liberal; traditional Moravians nickname the hierarchy of the Moravian church the “Moravian Mafia” but have not yet organized a viable confessing movement, and my fear is that the Pietistic element in Moravianism might interfere with such an effort to introduce reforms or a conservative Moravian church that rejects gay marriage, etc).

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robycop3 said:

Newp! Mine has SCRIPTURAL PROOF.

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The Liturgist said:

Firstly, according to the Nicene Creed, which is our CF.com Statement of Faith, Jesus Christ is God, together with the Father, as is the Holy Spirit. Jesus is also fully Human. Secondly, it is illogical to say that the Blessed Virgin Mary “was chosen to ... bring ... into the world ... the savior” and then to deny that she has any part in our Salvation; while she is not the co-redemptrix, as some people erroneously claim, she was the means by which our Savior became incarnate, and thus had an important role to play in our salvation.

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prodromos said:

Because if she was betrothed to be married and intending on having children with her future husband, she already knew how she would conceive in her womb, by "knowing" her husband.

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The Liturgist said:

The men who collated those writings and placed them in one book were the early Church Fathers, particularly Eusebius of Caesarea, St. Jerome and St. Athanasius, who defined the 27 book New Testament canon.

Additionally, the Apostles and Evangelists who wrote the 27 books of the New Testament were the founders of the Early Church.

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The Liturgist said:

Nowhere does the Bible say that the Mother of God had any children other than Jesus. And there is a compelling scriptural reason to believe she did not (Luke 1) and that these were children of St. Joseph by a previous marriage.

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robycop3 said:

But evidently she took Gabriel's words to mean she would conceive very soon,

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robycop3 said:

Why, YES IT DOES! I posted the verses above! And there's not one quark of Scripture saying Joe had been married before, by the slightest implication!

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MarkRohfrietsch said:

I believe that the Moravian Church is now in full fellowship with the ELCA/ELCIC and their affiliates, what is left of their congregations, if they are using new hymnals, it would likely be the ELCA book.

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prodromos said:

That is your interpretation. There is nothing in the archangel's announcement that indicates she would conceive before her wedding.

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