SDA Is it time for the church to remove Ellen White from fundamental beliefs

tall73 · Oct 8, 2021

BobRyan said:
That is a minority of the denomination and a lot of them accept the spiritual gifts given to Ellen White later. I don't think it is a good change in that regard given that those new converts are already not being stopped from joining and they already agree with our doctrines, so not much to gain by that change and it would be potentially misleading to non-SDAs to remove it.

I don't think that it is accurate to say members have not been stopped from joining. As I mentioned, it largely depends on the minister, even today. But it has been an issues for some time that not all go by Ellen White's advice.

For instance, the Ellen White Estate answered the following question sent in to them:

EllenWhite.Org Website - Is the inspiration of Ellen White a test of fellowship? (“Ellen G. White a Test for Membership?”)

When Walter Martin met with leaders of the Adventist Church, he asked whether belief in Ellen G. White’s writings was a test of fellowship. Instead of answering his question, the leaders quoted Ellen White herself Speaking about those who did notfully understand the gift, she said, “Such should not be de-prived of the benefits and privileges of the church” (see Testimonies for the Church, 1:328). Why then is belief in the role of Ellen White included as one of the fundamental beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist Church?

I have asked more than a hundred Adventist ministers if they would baptize and accept into the fellowship of the church a person who didn’t believe in the role the church claims for Mrs. White. To this date, I have yet to have one tell me that he or she would do so.

Ellen White says that those who do not understand the gift should not be denied the benefits and privileges of the church. Why then did the General Conference president, in an article titled “The Church—Authority and Responsibility” (Adventist Review, May 1995), write, “I cannot say that I don’t accept this... fundamental belief of the church and still claim to be part of the church ”?

This one is going back a ways, but shows that it is not a new problem:

1964 Francis Nichols
Why I Believe in Mrs. E. G. White

Why I Believe in Mrs. E. G. White

There is another question that is sometimes asked: Should a person be taken into the church who does not accept Mrs. White as God’s special messenger to the remnant church? We believe that the Adventist ministry in general would quickly answer, No. How could we answer otherwise? In view of the fact that such a belief in Mrs. White is one of our articles of faith, why would anyone wish to belong to our church if he did not accept Mrs. White? Would it be fair to him to bring him into the church unless, first, he well understood the doctrine of spiritual gifts, and second, was ready to accept that doctrine? Would we not be doing both him and the church a distinct disservice? Would we not be running the grave risk of later tension and discord?

Now I think during my time the majority of the pastors would probably fall on the other side of the question than in Nichol's day, being aware of Ellen White's view. However, it would make sense to clarify the subject, especially given acceptance of the fundamentals is part of the vows, and the fundamental does indicate Ellen White's writings speaking with prophetic authority.

And of course -- it is not up to me to change the entire denomination.

This is a discussion forum. We discuss.

However, if you are in touch with any who set agendas or if you are a delegate, you may still have some role.

In any case the number of times that this comes up is next to zero - since those folks are already joining.

I don't think it is next to zero.

I frankly have never heard of anyone saying they accept all the doctrines of the SDA denomination but choose not to join because they don't agree with the number of spiritual gifts that Ellen White had - even though this is not a barrier for joining according to the denomination.

So you think Ellen White wrote about the issue because people don't have this issue?

The context of her statement regarding it being a test of fellowship is in regards to folks in Iowa. Some there were uncertain of her writings, but still believed in much of the doctrine. But some others eventually became decidedly in opposition. She addresses both groups.

Eventually Iowa became the spot of the Marion Party that opposed Ellen White's writings and had a role in the Seventh-day Church of God.

So yes, there have been some who agree with the doctrines, but are not sure of Ellen White even way back then, and there continue to be.

tall73 · Oct 8, 2021

BobRyan said:
Indeed that is what we teach not just in church but in our Bible studies with non-SDAs resulting in our being one of the fastest growing Christian denominations in the world.

The Adventist church does grow quickly, and I appreciate their dedication to evangelism.

However, they also have a bit of a retention problem, which has gotten worse over the years:

Is there a higher goal than baptisms?

The Adventist Church is rejoicing that since October 1,1982, it has had an average of one thousand persons per day becoming members. What is not so well known is that 278 per day officially left our church during the same period. And the church has no way of knowing how many have "unofficially" removed themselves from the fellowship of believers. Should our church change its goals as it plans for 1990? If so, what kind of goals would be most meaningful?

Nurture, retention, reclamation: Can you hear their cry?

The Seventh-day Adventist Church is losing members at an alarming rate. Even though the evangelism in our churches is winning people, we lose about 49 of every 100 baptized. This hemorrhaging of our members cannot continue. It is expected to get worse, especially in countries where soul winning is difficult; and if it continues, entire conferences maybe closed for lack of members.

General Conference Secretary G. T. Ng, in addressing this issue, made a serious statement: “This 49 percent apostasy rate is alarming and is a serious drain on the human and financial resources of the church.” Then he asked some pertinent questions: “What happens to an army with 49 percent desertion among its soldiers? What happens to a school when 49 percent of its students drop out of classes? What happens to a factory when 49 percent of its employees decide to defect?”2

It went from around 28 per 100 in the late 80s to 49 per hundred in 2019. I am guessing the internet didn't help.

Which reminds me, I resigned my ordination as a minister, but did not drop my membership, or that of my family. May have to take care of that.

Leaf473 · Oct 8, 2021

The Liturgist said:
I believe Christians should only be baptized once, as it says so in the Nicene Creed “I believe in one Baptism for the remission of sins and in the life of the World to Come.”

I further am a proponent of paedobaptism and paedocommunion, because these sacraments benefit infants noetically.

Yes, I agree that a person is to be baptized only once.

And I think we are saying the same thing, that a person is baptized into Christ as opposed to being baptized into a particular local congregation.

Then to bring that around to the OP, if references to Ellen are removed from the Fundamental beliefs, then there won't be indirect references to Ellen in the baptismal vows, if I'm understanding the situation correctly.

The Liturgist · Oct 8, 2021

tall73 said:
The Adventist church does grow quickly, and I appreciate their dedication to evangelism.

However, they also have a bit of a retention problem, which has gotten worse over the years:

Is there a higher goal than baptisms?

The Adventist Church is rejoicing that since October 1,1982, it has had an average of one thousand persons per day becoming members. What is not so well known is that 278 per day officially left our church during the same period. And the church has no way of knowing how many have "unofficially" removed themselves from the fellowship of believers. Should our church change its goals as it plans for 1990? If so, what kind of goals would be most meaningful?

Nurture, retention, reclamation: Can you hear their cry?

The Seventh-day Adventist Church is losing members at an alarming rate. Even though the evangelism in our churches is winning people, we lose about 49 of every 100 baptized. This hemorrhaging of our members cannot continue. It is expected to get worse, especially in countries where soul winning is difficult; and if it continues, entire conferences maybe closed for lack of members.

General Conference Secretary G. T. Ng, in addressing this issue, made a serious statement: “This 49 percent apostasy rate is alarming and is a serious drain on the human and financial resources of the church.” Then he asked some pertinent questions: “What happens to an army with 49 percent desertion among its soldiers? What happens to a school when 49 percent of its students drop out of classes? What happens to a factory when 49 percent of its employees decide to defect?”2

It went from around 28 per 100 in the late 80s to 49 per hundred in 2019. I am guessing the internet didn't help.

Which reminds me, I resigned my ordination as a minister, but did not drop my membership, or that of my family. May have to take care of that.

You might look into ordination in another denomination, because your vocation could be legitimate. I would ordain you in a second as a presbyter with a mission to receive the 49% of Adventists who the SDA is unable to retain, into a traditional church, lest they become unchurched, because if even 25% of those 49% of converts are becoming unchurched, that is a huge problem. I know a former SDA pastor who just quit and apostasized altogether, and is now a psychologist with an alcoholism problem, which is very sad.

tall73 · Oct 8, 2021

The Liturgist said:
You might look into ordination in another denomination, because your vocation could be legitimate. I would ordain you in a second as a presbyter with a mission to receive the 49% of Adventists who the SDA is unable to retain, into a traditional church, lest they become unchurched, because if even 25% of those 49% of converts are becoming unchurched, that is a huge problem. I know a former SDA pastor who just quit and apostasized altogether, and is now a psychologist with an alcoholism problem, which is very sad.

I am sorry to hear about that pastor. As with most groups people leave the Adventist church for a variety of reasons. Some leave because they don't experience the fellowship with other believers, some due to hurts or fights with other members, some due to the church that they belong to not being healthy or helping them grow in Christ, etc.

Of those who left for theological reasons they generally fall into two groups. The first are those who still have faith in Christ, and usually find another Christian fellowship that they can grow in. For them the issue was usually distinctive doctrines they could not agree with.

The other group may leave Christ altogether.

A number of people who have dropped out for reasons other than doctrine still hold to the idea that the church is the remnant, has correct teaching, etc. but do not themselves go anymore, or in some cases don't feel welcome. Because of that view of the remnant going to another church is not an option for some of them. It never feels right. But if they are having problems with their local church in a rural area, there may be nowhere else for them to go, other than online, or sometimes independent ministries (some supportive of the General Conference leadership, and some not). It can be difficult for this group. I have a family member in that category.

For some who hold to some ofthe teaching it can help if there are Seventh-day Baptist or other seventh-day groups, as for many the Sabbath is a belief they retain. But while there are a number of Sabbath keeping groups, finding one nearby other than Adventists can still be difficult in many places.

As for me, I left going on 15 years ago now. I left the membership at first because I was studying through things for years. I did not retain the ordination, even though they offered, because I did not think that would be honest if I could not agree to the beliefs at that time.

We have been in a new church now for most of those years, after attending several, and one of the things I really like about it is that the congregation I am in is conservative theologically, but also allows for people to study freely and compare notes, within certain basic limits.

There were actually a few different Adventist pastors on these boards who left at one point, and I think all of them are back in ministry in their respective denominations. So for those who are still Christian, and leave for theological reasons, it may take some time to work through some of the issues, and some of the doubt (they either were then, or are now in error, since both cannot be correct), but most manage to do pretty well.

There are churches that have specialized ministries for reaching former Adventists. However, they tend to be in areas where there are major Adventist institutions such as colleges, hospitals, etc. Otherwise most of the dialogue happens online.

Also, I tend to find how they do after leaving depends on their Adventist experience. Some are bitter because they indicate they never heard the gospel at all in their Adventist church, and in some cases were abused. Some of those conversations are more dealing with the emotional fallout

That, thankfully, was not my experience. I heard the gospel in the Adventist church, and loved the church and the people. It was the only church my kids knew, and I didn't want to leave, but felt I had to due to difference in theology.

In the end I think it was the right thing to do, but it was difficult for a time.

Leaf473 · Oct 8, 2021

tall73 said:
The Adventist church does grow quickly, and I appreciate their dedication to evangelism.

However, they also have a bit of a retention problem, which has gotten worse over the years:

Is there a higher goal than baptisms?

The Adventist Church is rejoicing that since October 1,1982, it has had an average of one thousand persons per day becoming members. What is not so well known is that 278 per day officially left our church during the same period. And the church has no way of knowing how many have "unofficially" removed themselves from the fellowship of believers. Should our church change its goals as it plans for 1990? If so, what kind of goals would be most meaningful?

Nurture, retention, reclamation: Can you hear their cry?

The Seventh-day Adventist Church is losing members at an alarming rate. Even though the evangelism in our churches is winning people, we lose about 49 of every 100 baptized. This hemorrhaging of our members cannot continue. It is expected to get worse, especially in countries where soul winning is difficult; and if it continues, entire conferences maybe closed for lack of members.

General Conference Secretary G. T. Ng, in addressing this issue, made a serious statement: “This 49 percent apostasy rate is alarming and is a serious drain on the human and financial resources of the church.” Then he asked some pertinent questions: “What happens to an army with 49 percent desertion among its soldiers? What happens to a school when 49 percent of its students drop out of classes? What happens to a factory when 49 percent of its employees decide to defect?”2

It went from around 28 per 100 in the late 80s to 49 per hundred in 2019. I am guessing the internet didn't help.

Which reminds me, I resigned my ordination as a minister, but did not drop my membership, or that of my family. May have to take care of that.

I've heard a similar situation is happening with LDS and JW's.

It's especially pronounced in First World countries.

If you feel it's within the scope of his thread, is it possible to break down the SDA losses by parts of the world?

tall73 · Oct 8, 2021

Leaf473 said:
I've heard a similar situation is happening with LDS and JW's.

It's especially pronounced in First World countries.

If you feel it's within the scope of his thread, is it possible to break down the SDA losses by parts of the world?

The Seventh-day Adventist Church publishes annual statistical reports.

https://documents.adventistarchives...74656.85399284.1633726911-36969158.1633630250

This is broken down by division. However, it is a bit more complicated. Some have higher rates due to recent audits. These find those who have left that were not previously known. So they may have been gone for some time.

KPI 1.7: Improved Retention Rates of Audited
Membership. As has been stated here many times before, a regular and rigorous program of auditing is necessary to obtain a clear picture of how well we are retaining members. Charts 1 and 2 dramatically illustrate this point. In 2018 the Southern Asia Division (SUD), for the first time, conducted a far-reaching audit, the results of which were reported in early 2019. They removed 491,657 names from their membership records. This is a laudable step toward more accurate statistics for SUD, but highlights why regular audits are needed to understand retention: there were clearly many members leaving, whose departure was not noticed until now, and such a large spike of old departures hides the data regarding more recent departures. (It should be noted that the Inter-American Division also reported significant audit figures for 2019.) Where auditing is a part of the church’s organizational culture (as in the South American Division), annual totals of losses are lower. But
more importantly, church leaders have a real sense of how many members are being lost. They can then take appropriate measures

So for instance, in the North American Division, 66 left for every 100 brought in.

tall73 · Oct 8, 2021

When Bob speaks of rapid growth, and I say I appreciate their efforts at evangelism, this is what we are referring to.

Part of this is made possible by an organizational structure geared towards evengelism. The church encourages tithing, but tithe does not stay at the local level. It is sent up to the world level then distributed. As a result they can make sure it is being used to pay staff in various areas, including mission fields. Local church budgets operate on additional giving above tithe. And then additional mission offerings are given above tithe by those willing.

However, this is not a positive trend:

tall73 · Oct 8, 2021

This helps picture the trends in additions:

tall73 · Oct 8, 2021

You can find exact numbers broken down by smaller units starting on page 16, and it further differentiates between deaths and those dropped from membership.

Here is an example from the North American Division, Atlantic Union, listed by various conferences.

https://documents.adventistarchives...74656.85399284.1633726911-36969158.1633630250

ewq1938 · Oct 8, 2021

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SDA Is it time for the church to remove Ellen White from fundamental beliefs

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