Are there many on this forum who have received the Holy Spirit; with the bible evidence of tongues ?

rturner76

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Are you a "doubting Thomas" doubting that this supernatural Gift is no longer active among today's "chosen called out ones" ?
I had a Pastor that used to call me "Doubting Thomas." Partly for other reasons but still. have always been perplexed by the "supernatural." I believe it happens but just not to the same extent as people who are more Pentecostal or Charismatic.
 
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topher694

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The miracle was that all these guys from this backwater that was Galilee were suddenly speaking language that Medes and Parthians and Cretes and Romans and Egyptians and Arabians were understanding their native languages among the speakers, and it's not that each man was speaking and being understood by the listeners in a different language. That'd be a gift of ears rather than a gift of tongues, for one man to speak one thing and be heard as saying different things by different listeners. But among the group of 120, different ones were speaking different foreign languages.

Paul also makes another important truth in 1 Corinthians 14


The Holy Spirit is not seizing control of them and forcing them to do something like speak in tongues or thrash around on the floor. The prophets were still in control of their mind and body, they were just urged to say something by the Holy Spirit. It is cooperative, not coercive.

Now I think in most cases these experiences are just people wanting to believe they got a spiritual gift so badly that they'll go with the flow, get caught up in the moment and start babbling in gibberish in order to belong.

But in some cases when these people tell you they blacked out during the experience?
That's not the Holy Spirit.
That's something else, something dark.

The Holy Spirit indwells.
Demons possess.

So I'd be careful about desiring a gift of tongues that badly.
Hilarious. We should just take what the scripture say plainly... UNLESS it plainly says something that I don't like... then we can change it:

Acts 2
7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans?
8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language?

Seems pretty plain to me

You know in the Bible when someone suggested that something from the Holy Spirit was of the devil it didn't reflect well upon them.
 
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rturner76

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You know in the Bible when someone suggested that something from the Holy Spirit was of the devil it didn't reflect well upon them.
The Bible does say that even the elect will be deceived. While celebrating the gifts of the Holy Spirit, I still recommend a degree of discernment.
 
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Jamdoc

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Hilarious. We should just take what the scripture say plainly... UNLESS it plainly says something that I don't like... then we can change it:

Acts 2
7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans?
8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language?

Seems pretty plain to me

You know in the Bible when someone suggested that something from the Holy Spirit was of the devil it didn't reflect well upon them.

Yeah, it is plain, there was a group of 120 of them, there was bound to be individuals speaking in a language that these other people traveling from abroad could hear.

and I'm advising discernment and comparison of any experiences to the word of God.

If it does not match up, it's not what the bible describes, no matter how much you want it to be.

and the laying on the floor thrashing around involuntarily?
That's not anywhere where people were given the holy spirit.
Where that is...
is in cases of demonic possession in the bible.

In fact the terrifying thing is.. that people outside of the church, in eastern religions and the occult, experience the convulsions and uttering gibberish symptoms too.. they call it Kundalini awakening.

Let me ask you this...
if people who worship demons are experiencing comparable religious experience to your "holy spirit" experiences.. is that really evidence of the Holy Spirit?

 
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topher694

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The Bible does say that even the elect will be deceived. While celebrating the gifts of the Holy Spirit, I still recommend a degree of discernment.
Discernment is good. Jesus said we would know the true from the false by the fruit. The Bible is very clear about where accusing the brethren comes from. (Hint, it's not God)
 
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topher694

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Yeah, it is plain, there was a group of 120 of them, there was bound to be individuals speaking in a language that these other people traveling from abroad could hear.

and I'm advising discernment and comparison of any experiences to the word of God.

If it does not match up, it's not what the bible describes, no matter how much you want it to be.
And that goes both ways. If it does match up, it is what the Bible describes, no matter how much you don't want it to be.

Tell me, how does a statement like, "there's bound to be individuals speaking in a language these other people traveling from abroad could hear" line up with "If it does not match up, it's not what the bible describes"... Nowhere does the Bible state there were people who speak these languages. In why would the be amazed by people who already know the language. You actually contradict yourself in your own post.

Plus, I'll take the hundreds of positive things I've seen come of it against you throwing shade at other Christians any day.
 
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topher694

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Yes, it was definitely a supernatural experience, but a known human language that was unknown (not fluent) among the 120 Galilean Jews that were proclaiming the Good News. It could not have been an "unknown" human language and here's why.

In order for it to be an unknown human language the hearers would have had to have the supernatural Gift on interpretation of an unknown supernatural tongue to hear the Good News. This was not possible because the dispersed Jews from foreign lands had not been baptized/immersed in the Holy Spirit with tongues of fire as were the 120 chosen called out Israeli Jews primarily from the region of Gallilee.

You should know that there are just as many or more charasmatic/pentecostal Believers as well as non-denominational Believers that believe those called out ones among the 120 were speaking supernaturally of the Good News in a known human language dialect familiar to those dispersed Jews from other foreign lands.

Possibly you are biased because of my "Messianic" Christian faith icon and are knowingly or unknowingly going out of your way to disagree.
Brother, you have to get over this "Messianic" thing. I only noticed it because you pointed it out. You are assuming people are being biased against you and using it to attack them. I seriously doubt anyone cares. Get over it and get healed from it.

The rest of what you said makes zero sense. You're getting bogged down in words and missing the heart. ANY form of tongues natural or spiritual implies both speaking and hearing. It simply depends on whose perspective you are looking at it from. Just because the Bible records the perspective of those who heard it does not mean it still wasn't supernatural tongues, it actually confirms it. Plus it is perfectly in line with other scriptures AND God's heart and nature.
 
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Jamdoc

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And that goes both ways. If it does match up, it is what the Bible describes, no matter how much you don't want it to be.

Tell me, how does a statement like, "there's bound to be individuals speaking in a language these other people traveling from abroad could hear" line up with "If it does not match up, it's not what the bible describes"... Nowhere does the Bible state there were people who speak these languages. In why would the be amazed by people who already know the language. You actually contradict yourself in your own post.

Plus, I'll take the hundreds of positive things I've seen come of it against you throwing shade at other Christians any day.

Scripture does say.

this is all from Acts 2
first

5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

IE there were a lot of foreigners, who had diverse first languages, even if they all spoke a common language in order to gather for the feast.

8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

2 things of importance here.
1. These were real languages understood by people who had gathered for Pentecost from foreign lands. They were hearing Galileans speak their language which would be surprising that someone from a backwaters would be able to speak Median or something.
2. They were proclaiming the Word of God. That was the speech was understandable and meaningful.

next
12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

The people who were native to Jerusalem, who would normally speak Aramaic, were scoffing, because they did not understand what was being said so they thought the 120 were drunk.
If it is as you are claiming, a supernatural gibberish that just happened to be heard by the listeners as understandable language, then those who spoke Aramaic would have understood it to be Aramaic.
They did not.
They were hearing foreign languages and thought they were drunk.
 
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Jamdoc

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Yes, it was definitely a supernatural experience, but a known human language that was unknown (not fluent) among the 120 Galilean Jews that were proclaiming the Good News. It could not have been an "unknown" human language and here's why.

In order for it to be an unknown human language the hearers would have had to have the supernatural Gift on interpretation of an unknown supernatural tongue to hear the Good News. This was not possible because the dispersed Jews from foreign lands had not been baptized/immersed in the Holy Spirit with tongues of fire as were the 120 chosen called out Israeli Jews primarily from the region of Gallilee.

You should know that there are just as many or more charasmatic/pentecostal Believers as well as non-denominational Believers that believe those called out ones among the 120 were speaking supernaturally of the Good News in a known human language dialect familiar to those dispersed Jews from other foreign lands.

Possibly you are biased because of my "Messianic" Christian faith icon and are knowingly or unknowingly going out of your way to disagree.

I don't think anyone's slighting you for being Messianic or Torah observant. Provided you understand that it is not your observance of Torah that saves but the work of Jesus Christ's death, burial, and resurrection that saves, which as far as I know, Messianics understand.
Messianics keep Torah to keep their Jewish national identity, and because... obeying the laws of God is always a good thing.
That's my understanding anyway.
 
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What Bible scripture (verses) specifically states that those who believe on Christ have the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

Acts of the Apostles 16:31
Ephesians 2:8
Romans 10:9
John 3:15
John 6:40
John 1:12
John 20:31
Ephesians 1:13

Having saving faith is the same as being baptized with the Holy Spirit. Everyone who is saved is baptized with the Holy Spirit.
 
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"I don't speak in tongues but I have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit"
(by friend of said)
]
Born Again Believers (even among Pentacostals) differ when it comes to whether or not the Supernatural Gift of an "unknown tongue" is evidence of the "baptism of the Holy Spirit". Mainstream "church denominations" have possibly done more harm than good when it comes to the importance of "a child-like faith" with respect to the Supernatural Gift of an "unknown tongue" that is still in operation today. Why would God make it void? Very unlkely and i'd go so far as to say impossible.
This is a good example of the importance of a child-like Faith which more than a few pastors scoff-at when it comes to receiving this Supernatural Gift. A Gift (unknown tongue and it's interpretation) that they believe is no longer needed after the passing of the Apostles (including Paul) and therefore inactive today.

As sandman has said ... "ultimately it is Gods choice" ... and apparently a child-like faith is just as paramount today as it was at the time of the Apostle Paul ...

Matthew 18:3
Then He said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the Kingdom of Heaven."

A need for a theological doctorate degree (IMO) can actually hinder the Holy Spirit when it comes to receiving the Supernatural Gift of an "unknown tongue" for prayer/worship ... ( 1 John 2:27 - Bible Gateway)

added edit: ... in 1 John he often refers to the "called out ones / chosen ones" (church) to whom he is writting as "little children" :amen:
That's what happened to me. I was begging and pleading for the baptism with the Spirit, and the Lord said to me out of the pages of a book, "Why are you begging for something I gave to the church 2000 years ago? Just stop that nonsense and just receive it!" So I did. I said, "Lord, I receive the baptism with the Spirit". Then I thought to myself, "I can speak in tongues now". So I tried, and before long I was speaking a fluent language. That was in 1966, and I haven't stopped praying in tongues since, 55 years later.

I've heard all the old chestnuts against tongues, and when I sought the Lord during a period of doubt, He said, "I inspired a whole chapter in my Word about tongues (1 Corinthians 14), so just believe what is written there." So I did, and all my doubts vanished.

The only when I will no longer need to pray in tongues will be when I am with the Lord, among countless multitudes, praising God in our glorified bodies in heaven. At my age, that's not too far away. Problem is, I won't be able to come back and tell all the cessationists that they got it all wrong. They will have to discover that for themselves when they come up before the Lord and give their answer for their lack of love toward their Pentecostal and Charismatic brethren by accusing them of being false believers because they enjoy praying and praising God in languages they have never learned.
 
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I have seen opinions across the whole spectrum form one person saying "You MUST speak in tounges to others who say that is i the past and we don't get those gifts anymore. I'm somewhere in the middle.

I do believe that some are moved to speak in tounges and it truly is involuntary and a special gift but I was taught that there should be an interpreter that can translate the message. I believe that it's about a small percentage of people speak that way. I think most are getting a feeling that can only be expressed by letting out whatever sound you feel. I think some do it because they think they are supposed to.

It's never happened to me but I admit, I could be more closed off to that kind of experience. Like when a church gets really loud and people are gasping and shouting, I get nervous and want to get out of there and that's when something like tongues happens. But I have a lot of anxiety so I get in flight mode when I'm not sure what's going on in a public place. It's like I stop seeing a congregation and I see mass hysteria and the fear kick in.
Don't believe what you see on Youtube. All that public speaking in tongues is going against what Paul clearly said about the pointlessness of speaking out in tongues in public without interpretation. Also, videoing believers in acts of sacred worship is an invasion of their privacy, and a form of sacrilege. I believe that those who film believers in acts of worship to the Lord are sinning and grieving the Holy Spirit, and those who use those video clips to ridicule Pentecostal and Charismatic believers are accessories to the sin and would have the same need of repentance.

I have been associated with Pentecostal churches and ministries all my Christian life (55yrs) and I have never seen hysteria or fear in any of the worship services I have been in. All I have witnessed are people praising and worshiping God and enjoying every moment of it.

You say that tongues is involuntary. If that is so, then it is not faith. Faith is what we do based on what we believe to be in God's Word. It is voluntary. Anything that is impulsive, compulsive or involuntary is not of faith and therefore not of the Holy Spirit. The Scripture says that the spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophet. In other words, a person can choose to pray in tongues and choose to stop or start whenever he wants. That is faith. But if something is manifested and you can't control it, then that is more like something that is coming from another spirit other than the Holy Spirit.
 
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Jamdoc

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Acts of the Apostles 16:31
Ephesians 2:8
Romans 10:9
John 3:15
John 6:40
John 1:12
John 20:31
Ephesians 1:13

Having saving faith is the same as being baptized with the Holy Spirit. Everyone who is saved is baptized with the Holy Spirit.

I quoted another one earlier
1 Corinthians 12:3
 
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Jamdoc

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Consider myself Messianic non-Jewish Christian. The word "Torah" means "Instruction". The complete Hebrew/Jewish Bible (OT/NT) is Adonai Elohim's instruction to mankind (let us make man in our own image).

One reason for my Messianic faith icon is because Immanuel was birthed on the first day of Sukkot (Festival of Tabernacles) and circumcised on the extra special eigth day (occurs in Sept or Oct on Gregorian calendar). December 25th was first instituted and perpetuated by the RCC to sastisfy pagan beliefs and hopefully encourage them to join the RCC. In like manner the RCC today combines the indigenous peace pipe ceremony of native americans with RCC litergy.


I thought most Messianics were Jews who became Christians, but wanted to maintain their National Identity.
 
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topher694

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I's obvious you are biased before even reading the content even though other charasmatics, pentecostals, non-denominational and denominational Believers believe the Good News was spoken in a supernatural known human language NOT a supernatural unknown language as you previously posted.
You know in my experience those who quickly accuse others of being bias are often actually themselves the ones being bias. You comments towards me suggest that is the case here.

Hopefully, you now agree that those among the 120 called out chosen ones were speaking with a supernatural known human language (tongue) that those Jews from foreign lands could clearly understand.
Nope, you've said nothing to make me agree with this.

You are the first Penecostal Believer, and i've known more than a few, that believes that the supernatural language proclaiming the Good News spoken at Pentecost was a heavenly "unknown" human language. Maybe, you just like to stir the pot with your own Penecostal theological version.
Actually I pastor a church and lead a Bible school. I've written books and curriculum on the subject. I promise you I have studied, prayed, written and practiced this more than anyone else here. This is not some theological curiosity I created on my own. It's a well accepted understanding with well established fruit to back it up.

Have you never heard of missionaries that are inspired to proclaim the Good News supernaturally in another known human language (even to a remote indigenous tribe that aren't believers in Christ Jesus). A known human language that was unknown to the missionary, but supernaturally inspired by the Holy Spirit.
I'll do you one better. I've operated in all the major types of tongues myself including this one. What the problem here is, as usual, is the gift is "different kinds of tongues" and what so often happens is someone has an understanding on one kind but witnesses or discusses another kind and derails the conversation, just like here. The common factor is always that they don't operate in the gift themselves, but still know better than everyone else.

Thus too as those chosen Galilean Jews proclaiming the Good News to foreign Jews on Pentecost was a known human language they understood. In case you're not aware the entire Bible was not penned by even one gentile Believer. Luke was of Jewish ancestry, even though some non-Jewish Believers mistakenly like to think that Luke was non-Jewish.
Again, you are only half right and I understand the writers just fine.
 
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The miracle was that all these guys from this backwater that was Galilee were suddenly speaking language that Medes and Parthians and Cretes and Romans and Egyptians and Arabians were understanding their native languages among the speakers, and it's not that each man was speaking and being understood by the listeners in a different language. That'd be a gift of ears rather than a gift of tongues, for one man to speak one thing and be heard as saying different things by different listeners. But among the group of 120, different ones were speaking different foreign languages.

Paul also makes another important truth in 1 Corinthians 14


The Holy Spirit is not seizing control of them and forcing them to do something like speak in tongues or thrash around on the floor. The prophets were still in control of their mind and body, they were just urged to say something by the Holy Spirit. It is cooperative, not coercive.

Now I think in most cases these experiences are just people wanting to believe they got a spiritual gift so badly that they'll go with the flow, get caught up in the moment and start babbling in gibberish in order to belong.

But in some cases when these people tell you they blacked out during the experience?
That's not the Holy Spirit.
That's something else, something dark.

The Holy Spirit indwells.
Demons possess.

So I'd be careful about desiring a gift of tongues that badly.
I pray in tongues because I want to, and I believe that God understands what I am saying. I don't speak in tongues in public because Paul taught us not to, but to prophesy instead. I love praying in tongues because I can express my heart to God in an articulate, expressive language, and it brings me joy as I know that I am fellowshiping in a close way with the Lord.

I have had one event when I was praying quietly in tongues during a prayer service, and a New Zealand Maori lady sitting beside me told me I was speaking encouraging things from the Lord in her own native language, which I had no knowledge of at the time. On another occasion a close friend was praying in tongues during a prayer meeting at our church and a Ghanaian friend stopped him and told him that he was praising God in his own village dialect, a language my friend could never have known.

On these two occasions, my friend and I was "babbling" as you call it. But what was happening is that I was praying in the Maori language, and my friend was praising God in a rural Ghanaian village dialect. I think the Lord allowed that to happen to confirm to my friend and I that the tongues we were praying in was the real thing and not just pointless "babbling".
 
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topher694

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IE there were a lot of foreigners, who had diverse first languages, even if they all spoke a common language in order to gather for the feast
Verse 5 is talking about the hearers, not the speakers, which actually proves MY point.
 
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