Once again, what are we to make of Zechariah 14:16-19?

Andrewn said:

I'm not a pre-Millennialist and most definitely do not believe the Dispensational heresy.

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I didn't mean for that comment to be directed at yourself, but in a generic sense to the reading audience.

Andrewn said:

The Millennium started with the coming of Christ and the war in heaven.

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By this, I presume you mean to refer to Christ and the disciples casting out devils from those in Israel during His ministry. As in Matthew 12:29, "Or how can anyone enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house." True, those exorcisms were a mark that Satan was then in a bound state during Christ's earthly ministry, but that binding did not begin with the coming of Christ. Instead, those exorcisms represented the "spoiling his goods" since Satan had already "first" been bound long before then.

We have an indication for the beginning of the millennium of Satan's being bound in Psalms 72:4 in the LXX, written as the aging King David's prophetic last words for his son Solomon, that Solomon "shall bring low the false accuser". This I believe was meant to refer to Satan, "the accuser of the brethren", being brought low by an action of Solomon's; i.e., the foundation stone of Solomon's temple being laid down in 968/967 BC.

As for the war in heaven when Satan and his angels were cast out down to earth, this was definitely AFTER the crucifixion, because it took the "blood of the Lamb" to overcome Satan in Revelation 12:11. John applied the loosing of Satan in the earth to those he was then writing to in Revelation 12:12. "Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!"

If Satan was then loosed in John's days for just a "short time", this tells us clearly that the millennium was already over by then. Because we are told in Revelation 20:3 and 7 that Satan would be released for just a "little season" at the time when the millennium had expired.

3 Resurrections said:

Then you would have to disregard the archeological evidence of Christ's return that is currently lying in the Kidron Valley, in fulfillment of the Zechariah 14:4-5 text in the LXX. Many of the translations of this passage mistakenly interpret it as "fleeing through the Valley", when it really said that the Kidron Valley at Christ's return would be "blocked up as far as Azal" by the earthquake rubble from the Mount of Olives - which truly did happen, and is still there to be analyzed, and is dated to the AD 70 era.

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The Septuagint rendition of this passage cannot be defended on the basis of any known Hebrew text.

Biblewriter said:

The Septuagint rendition of this passage cannot be defended on the basis of any known Hebrew text.

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If you prefer not to rely on the Septuagint, then you still have to deal with with the other versions of this Zechariah 14:5 text which say the same thing as the Septuagint. These were listed in a post I encountered called "Ye Shall NOT Flee to Azal" on another website where I am a member. The versions that agree with the Septuagint version of this Zechariah 14:5 verse include, "...The bibles of the entire Eastern Orthodox Church (Greek, Russian, Syrian), the New Jerusalem Bible, the New American Bible, the New English Bible, (and possibly its successor, the Revised English Bible), the Concordant Literal Version, and the 1992 version of Tanakh: the Holy Scriptures...".

Here is an explanation for the difference between the different renderings of Zechariah 14:4-5, as written in the article "Azal: A Longtime Mystery Rediscovered" at this link Deciphering Zechariah 14:5

"The reason that there are two different versions of Zechariah 14:5 is because a Hebrew verb that occurs three times in this verse can be pronounced two different ways, which results in two very different meanings. The LXX, which is a Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures made nearly 1000 years before the MT was fully redacted, has one meaning (it shall be closed/blocked up), and the MT has the other (you shall flee). These very different translations obscure a clear understanding of Zechariah 14:5. Another obscurant factor is an almost universal ignorance, existent for many centuries until now, of what and where Azal is, or was. This is largely due to the fact that no known writing authored prior to the late 19th century clarifies this mystery."

3 Resurrections said:

We have an indication for the beginning of the millennium of Satan's being bound in Psalms 72:4 in the LXX, written as the aging King David's prophetic last words for his son Solomon, that Solomon "shall bring low the false accuser". This I believe was meant to refer to Satan, "the accuser of the brethren", being brought low by an action of Solomon's; i.e., the foundation stone of Solomon's temple being laid down in 968/967 BC.

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I understand your opinion but do not accept it. I don't buy it but will keep it on the shelf.

If the Millennium and Satan's short time and Jesus' coming and the Resurrection are all over, are we now living in eternity .

Andrewn said:

If the Millennium and Satan's short time and Jesus' coming and the Resurrection are all over, are we now living in eternity .

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Bless you, no! We are currently living out the time period of human history that Christ referred to in Matthew 24:21; the period which would follow the Great Tribulation. You know, the lengthy span of history that would never have any tribulation episodes quite like the kind that took place formerly, just prior to His second coming in AD 70. We are living in that particular "No, nor ever shall be" period of history mentioned in Matthew 24:21, subsequent to Christ's second coming, which "IMMEDIATELY" followed the Great Tribulation.

If all of human history could be compared to a drama called "Redemption" enacted on a stage, then you could say that we are living in the "Act II" part of the drama. "Act I" would have encompassed the time from creation until the end of the Great Tribulation. Christ's AD 70 second coming and that year's judgment would then be the "Intermission" between "Act I" and "Act II".

There is nothing in scripture that prevents God from opening the books more than once, and from having another Great White Throne Judgment at His next coming. After all, "we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ", which of necessity includes those saints like us living since AD 70's resurrection at Christ's second coming back then. We, too, will have our turn in a judgment of rewards - more or less, as the case may be.

3 Resurrections said:

If you prefer not to rely on the Septuagint, then you still have to deal with with the other versions of this Zechariah 14:5 text which say the same thing as the Septuagint. These were listed in a post I encountered called "Ye Shall NOT Flee to Azal" on another website where I am a member. The versions that agree with the Septuagint version of this Zechariah 14:5 verse include, "...The bibles of the entire Eastern Orthodox Church (Greek, Russian, Syrian), the New Jerusalem Bible, the New American Bible, the New English Bible, (and possibly its successor, the Revised English Bible), the Concordant Literal Version, and the 1992 version of Tanakh: the Holy Scriptures...".

Here is an explanation for the difference between the different renderings of Zechariah 14:4-5, as written in the article "Azal: A Longtime Mystery Rediscovered" at this link Deciphering Zechariah 14:5

"The reason that there are two different versions of Zechariah 14:5 is because a Hebrew verb that occurs three times in this verse can be pronounced two different ways, which results in two very different meanings. The LXX, which is a Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures made nearly 1000 years before the MT was fully redacted, has one meaning (it shall be closed/blocked up), and the MT has the other (you shall flee). These very different translations obscure a clear understanding of Zechariah 14:5. Another obscurant factor is an almost universal ignorance, existent for many centuries until now, of what and where Azal is, or was. This is largely due to the fact that no known writing authored prior to the late 19th century clarifies this mystery."

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You need to check your sources more carefully.

Here is the Greek Orthodox version of this passage:

3The Lord will attack those nations like a warrior fighting in battle. 4He will take his stand on the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, and the mountain will split in half, forming a wide valley that runs from east to west. 5Then you people will escape from the Lord's mountain, through this valley, which reaches to Azal. You will run in all directions, just as everyone did when the earthquake struck in the time of King Uzziah of Judah. Afterwards, the Lord my God will appear with his holy angels.

Here is the New English Translation:

4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives that lies to the east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in half from east to west, leaving a great valley. Half the mountain will move northward and the other half southward.a]">[a] 5 Then you will escapeb]">[b] through my mountain valley, for the valley of the mountains will extend to Azal.c]">[c] Indeed, you will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of King Uzziahd]">[d] of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come with all his holy ones with him.


And here is the Tanuk version:

And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, Which is before Jerusalem on the east, And the mount of Olives shall cleft in the midst thereof Toward the east and toward the west, So that there shall be a very great valley; And half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, And half of it toward the south. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; For the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azel; Yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah; And the LORD my God shall come, And all the holy ones with Thee.

Preterists claim that the Septuagint calls Israel, “Gog” in Numbers 24:7 But what does that passage actually say?

7 “He shall pour water from his buckets,
And his seed shall be in many waters.
‘His king shall be higher than Agag,
And his kingdom shall be exalted.’ ” (Numbers 24:7 NKJV)

In the Masouratic text, the Hebrew word here translated “than Agag” is מאגג, magag in our alphabet. This is אגג, Agag in our alphabet, word number 90 in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary, with a “Mem” prefix, here meaning “than.” In the Septuagint, this word is translated as η Γωγ, e Gog in our alphabet, which translates literally as “than Gog.” The previous words, και υψωθήσεται, kai upsiothesetai in our alphabet, translates as “And shall be rasied up high” and the following words, βασιλεία αυτού, basileia autou in our alphabet, translate as “his kingdom.” So the actual words of the Septaguint here are “And shall be raised up high[er] than Gog his kingdom.” So there is no logical way to even pretend that this is calling Israel, “Gog.” Instead, it is literally saying that Israel “shall be raised up higher than the kingdom of Gog.” So the only difference here between the Septuagint and English translagions is adding the vowel “o,” rather than adding the vowel “a,’ as this title is transliterated in English. (The vowels have to be added because the Hebrew alphabet does not contain vowels.) To see the real meaning of this title, we need to examine how it is used in other scriptres. So we read:

8 “He also took Agag king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword.” (1 Samuel 15:8) The Hebrew word here translated “Agag” is אח־אגג, et-Agag in our alphabet. This is the same אגג, Agag in our alphabet, word number 90 in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary, with an “et” prefix, indicating that “Agag” is the direct object of the verb “took.” The Septuagint renders this word as τον Αγάγ, ton Agag in our alphabet, which translates literally as “the Agag.” (For Agag was a title, not a name.) But then the Septuagint goes on to say βασιλέα Αμαλήκ, basilea Amalek in our alphabet, whch literally means “king of Amalek.” So in this case, the Hebrew word אגג was clearly indicated as the title of the king of Amalek, not as another word for Israel.

9 “But Saul and the people spared Agag and the best of the sheep, the oxen, the fatlings, the lambs, and all that was good, and were unwilling to utterly destroy them. But everything despised and worthless, that they utterly destroyed.” (1 Samuel 15:9 NKJV) The Hebrew word here translated Agag is על־אגג, al-Agag in our alphabet. This, again, is the same אגג, Agag in our alphabet, word number 90 in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary, with an “al” prefix, meaning “on.” We inderstand this when we realize that the Hebrew word here translated as “spared” was literally “pitied.” So the Hebrew text said “pitied on Agag.” Here the Septuagint reads “preserved the Agag.”
20 “And Saul said to Samuel, ‘But I have obeyed the voice of the LORD, and gone on the mission on which the LORD sent me, and brought back Agag king of Amalek; I have utterly destroyed the Amalekites.’ ” (1 Samuel 15:20 NKJV) Here, as in verse 8, the Hebrew word translated “Agag” is אח־אגג, et-Agag in our alphabet. This is again the same אגג, Agag in our alphabet, word number 90 in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary, with an “et” prefix, indicating that “Agag”
is the direct object of the verb “brought.” The Septuagint renders this word as τον Αγάγ, ton Agag in our alphabet, which translates literally as “the Agag.” And here, the next words in the Hebrew text are םלך עםלק, melek amaleq in our alphabet, which translate literally as “king of Alalek.” and here, the Septuagint reads “the Agag king of Amalek.”

32 “Then Samuel said, ‘Bring Agag king of the Amalekites here to me.’ So Agag came to him cautiously. And Agag said, ‘Surely the bitterness of death is past.’ ” (1 Samuel 15:32 NKJV) Here, as in verse 8, the Hebrew word first translated “Agag” is אח־אגג, et-Agag in our alphabet. This is again the same אגג, Agag in our alphabet, word number 90 in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary, with an “et” prefix, indicating that “Agag” is the direct object of the verb “bring.” The Septuagint renders this as τον Αγάγ, ton Agag in our alphabet, which translates literally as “the Agag.” The two other times we find this word in the English text of verse 32, are, in the Hebrew text, simply אגג, Agag in our alphabet, word number 90 in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary. In the second case, the Septuagint renders it as ο Αγάγ, ho Agag in our alphabet, literally meaning “which Agag.” and in the third time this title occurs in this verse, it is simply the word Agag.

33 “But Samuel said, ‘As your sword has made women childless, so shall your mother be childless among women.’ And Samuel hacked Agag in pieces before the LORD in Gilgal.” (1 Samuel 15:33 NKJV) This last time this Hebrew word occurs in the Bible, it is, as in verses 8 and 32, the Hebrew word אח־אגג, et-Agag in our alphabet, the same אגג, Agag in our alphabet, word number 90 in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary, with an “et” prefix, indicating that “Agag” is the direct object of the verb “hewed.” The Septuaging here again renders it as “the Agag.”

So we see that in every case except Numbers 24:7, The Septuagint rendered this Hebrew word as the title “Agag,” rather than as the name, “Gog.” The only logical way to explain why, in the sole case of Numbers 24:7, the translators of the Septuagint did this, would be that at the time the Septuagint was translated, roughly 200 BC, Gog was a great king. According to Ezekiel 38:2, he was “of the land of Magog,” and was also “the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal.”

According to Josephus “the Magogites” “were by the Greeks called Scythians” ( “Jewish Antiquities,” by Flavius Josephus, Book 1, chapter 6, sec. 123, from “The New Complete Works of Josephus,” trans. by William Whiston, revised by Paul L. Maier, Grand Rapids: Kregel, 1999, pg. 57.) So by the time the Septuagint was translated, “Gog” was indeed a great king.

But the Scythians did not become prominent until the seventh century BC., around a thousand years after the time of Moses, who wrote the book of Numbers during the seventeenth century B.C. So it was unreasonable to have assumed that Balaam was speaking of “Gog,” instead of “Agag.” But that is what the translators of the Septuagint appear to have done.

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Now, as to the Hebrew name “Gog,” we find the following:

4 “The sons of Joel were Shemaiah his son, Gog his son, Shimei his son,” (1 Chronicles 5:4 NKJV) Here the name “Gog” is גּוֹג, Gog in our alphabet. This is word number 1463 in Strong’s Hebrew dictionary, and is a distinctly different word from the Hebrew word אגג, Agag in our alphabet, word number 90 in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary. Putting these two Hebrew words side by side makes their difference very clearly visable. They are גּוֹג (Gog) and אגג (Agag). So confusing these two Hebrew words is basically impossible. It could only be done through gross carelessness.
In 1 Chronicles 5:4, the Septuagint renders this word as Γωγ, Gog in our alphabet.

2 “Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal, and prophesy against him,” (Ezekiel 38:2 NKJV) In the Masouretic text The Hebrew word here translated “ against Gog” is אל־גוג, el-gog in our alphabet. This is the Hebrew name גוג, Gog in our alphabet, with the prefix el, here meaning “against.” In the Septuagint this combined word is translated as επι Γωγ,, epi Gog in our alphabet, which literally means the same thing, “against Gog.” And here, the Septuagint clearly says, not only “Γωγ,” but “Γωγ και την γην του Μαγώγ” that is “Gog and the land of Magog.” and it then calls “Γωγ,” the “άρχοντα Ρως Μοσόχ και Θουβάλ.” that is the ruler (archonta in our alphabet) of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal” So the Septuagint clearly does not even suggest the idea that “Gog” means “Israel.”

3 “and say, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Behold, I am against you, O Gog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal.” ’ ” (Ezekiel 38:3 NKJV) Here, the name Gog stands alone in the Hebrew text, simply as גּוֹג, Gog in our alphabet. For some reason, this word is totally omitted in the Septuagint text of this verse.

14 “Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say to Gog, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “On that day when My people Israel dwell safely, will you not know it?” ’ ” (Ezekiel 38:14 NKJV) Here, the Hebrew word translated “unto Gog” is לגוג, which is the Hebrew name גוג. Gog in our alphabet, with the prefix l, indicating that the speech here is being addressed to “Gog.” The Septuagint renders this as τω Γωγ, to Gog in our alphabet, which translated literally as “to Gog.”

16 “You will come up against My people Israel like a cloud, to cover the land. It will be in the latter days that I will bring you against My land, so that the nations may know Me, when I am hallowed in you, O Gog, before their eyes.” (Ezekiel 38:16 NKJV) Here, the name “Gog” stands alone, simply as גוג. Gog in our alphabet. And in the Septuagint, as in the English, it is rendered as Γωγ, Gog in our alphabet. But there it is found in verse 17, instaed of verse 16.

18 “ ‘And it will come to pass at the same time, when Gog comes against the land of Israel,’ says the Lord GOD, ‘that My fury will show in My face.’ ” (Ezekiel 38:18 NKJV) Here, in verse 16 and in 1 Chronicles 5:4, “Gog” is the simple Hebrew word גוג. Gog in our alphabet, and Γωγ in the Septuagint.

21 “ ‘I will call for a sword against Gog throughout all My mountains,’ says the Lord GOD. ‘Every man's sword will be against his brother.’ ” (Ezekiel 38:21 NKJV) In this verse, the word “Gog” is not in the ancient texts, being “him” in both the Hebrew and the Septuagint.

1 “And you, son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: ‘Behold, I am against you, O Gog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal;’ ” (Ezekiel 39:1 NKJV) In this verse, both places where we find the name “Gog,” it is the simple word by itself, In both the Hebrew and the Septuagint. And the Septuagint again clearly calls him, as it did in Ezekiel 38:2, “Γωγ άρχοντα Ρως Μοσόχ και Θουβάλ.” that is, “Gog ruler (archonta in our alphabet) of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal.” Again, this is most clearly not calling “Gog,” “Israel.”

11 “It will come to pass in that day that I will give Gog a burial place there in Israel, the valley of those who pass by east of the sea; and it will obstruct travelers, because there they will bury Gog and all his multitude. Therefore they will call it the Valley of Hamon Gog.” (Ezekiel 39:11 NKJV) The first place where we find the word “Gog” in this verse, it is the לגוג which we saw in Ezekiel 38:47, which is the Hebrew name גוג. Gog in our alphabet, with the prefix l, indicating that the one being buried is “Gog.” The Septuagint renders this as τω Γωγ, to Gog in our alphabet, which translates literally as “to Gog.” The second time it occurs in this verse it is אח־גוג, which is the familiar גוג. Gog in our alphabet, with the with the “et” prefix we saw in 1 Samuel 15:33, indicating that “Gag” is the direct object of the verb “bury.” And the third place it occurs is the simple word “Gog,” by itself, in both the Hebrew and the Septuagint texts.

15 “The search party will pass through the land; and when anyone sees a man's bone, he shall set up a marker by it, till the buriers have buried it in the Valley of Hamon Gog.” (Ezekiel 39:15 NKJV) Here, the word “Gog” is the simple form in both the Hebrew and Septuagint texts.

8 “and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.” (Revelation 20:8 NKJV) And here, the original is in Greek, so it is in neither the Hebrew nor the Septuagint texts. And it is the simple Greek word γωγ, gog in our alphabet.

This is all the places where either the words “Agag” or “Gog” appear in the entire Bible. And not even one of these places can rationally be even pretended to refer to Israel, whether in the Hebrew or in the Septuagint texts.

Zechariah 14 is not about the physical city of Jerusalem nor the Physical country of Israel whether it's in 70AD or sometimes in the future in the Middle East. Rather this chapter describes the great conflict or warfare of God's congregation (Jerusalem) and how her enemies bring her by force into captivity (Matthew 11:12). It explains how the coming of Christ ends the warfare and brings comfort to Jerusalem by setting her captives free and judging her enemies. That is it!

The language of "dividing the spoil" in the midst of Jerusalem is to signify the people (who are the spoil themselves) being taken by the enemy. All these descriptive prophesies of Zechariah chapter 14 must be understood symbolically. Not a literal event as most people here believe. The enemy took the spoil of the kingdom (which were God's people) and the Lord Jesus Christ brings restoration by defeating them and freeing the spoil from this enemy. Christ spoke of this in His parable about His kingdom, His defeat of the ruler Satan and His binding and spoiling of that house.

Matthew 12:25-29

• "And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
• And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
• And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
• But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
• Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house."

As we talked before about this lesson Christ taught, He said that if He had cast out Satan by the power of God, then the Kingdom of God had come unto them. Satan is the enemy, this strong man illustrated here in this parable, and his spoil are those whom Christ came to release from bondage under Satan. But first Satan had to be bound. The same Kingdom that Christ said suffered violence and was taken by force by the enemies of God. Jesus took a remnant from those in control of the kingdom, returned the captivity (the spoil) and gave the kingdom to another (Matthew 21:43). All of these things of Zechariah 14, including the gathering of the nations/gentiles against Jerusalem as judgment, the mount of Olives (verses 2-4), the removal of the mountain, the fleeing to the valley, the great earthquake (verses 5-6), the neither light nor dark, the waters flowing from Jerusalem, earthquake and the one king over all the earth (Zechariah 14:7-9), it turning as a plain, Jerusalem again safely inhabited while there is judgment for her enemies as plagues (Zechariah 10-15), the assemblage of all nations at Jerusalem to keep the feast of tabernacles, the holiness to some and judgment to others, and the use of "every pot in Jerusalem and Judah" for sacrifice (Zechariah 16-21), is all part of this prophecy of the coming of Christ and must be understood symbolically. Period!

When Zechariah 14:1 says "Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee," that is describing the great conflict or warfare in God's kingdom on earth with the enemies that spoil her, before Christ comes to comfort Jerusalem, spoil the enemies and give the kingdom to others who will bring forth fruits. It speaks of the apostasy and conflict in the Old Testament Congregation of Israel when Christ came and took the spoil of the enemy. As also Christ Himself taught in Luke chapter 11 when He said that "all that were not with Him were against Him." In other words, they were the enemies that fought against Him.

Luke 11:20-22

• "But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you./i]
• When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:
• But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.
• He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth."

All that was not with Christ were the enemies that were gathered together against Jerusalem. These are they that fought against the Holy City, who were judged of the Lord for doing so, and the remnant enjoyed that prosperous estate promised by the Lord. It was Christ who freed the captivity and restored the Kingdom to Israel. Not as national Israel and Premillennialists dreamed, but as God had always intended.

Okay, then what about the Feast of Tabernacles?

In order to understand the meaning of keeping the feast of tabernacles, one needs to understand that being a "Jew", the children of God, is not a matter of the flesh, but a matter of the Spirit. Christians should abandon all worldly and political ideas about the genealogical or physical makeup of people and start receiving God's Spiritual truth. Do we receive God's Word, or man's word? The people who God has chosen are not elected by race, but by grace. God's chosen people are one circumcision, one body, one family with one father, through Christ.

Romans 2:28-29

• "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
• But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

Those Jews, Italians, French, Americans, etc. who love Christ are God's chosen people. They are Spiritually Jews and heirs according to the promises made to the Israel of God.

Galatians 6:16

• "And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God."

All one body of the Messiah, not two separate bodies or entities. Some people just can't seem to understand this no matter how many (Ephesians 2:11-22) times God's Word says it.

James 2:5

• "Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?"

True Jews are not about bloodline nor physical nation, except it be the bloodline of Christ. It's not about genealogy, except they are the children of God, through regeneration in Christ. It's not about nationality, except it be the holy nation of saints chosen of God.

1st Peter 2:9

• "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:"

This is God's Holy nation, Christ is our feast of tabernacles, the tent in which we dwell in this wilderness (during the church age) on our way to the promised land. It is Christ who is what truly makes men Children of God. Feast on Him and you keep the feasts that the Old Testament laws merely looked forward to.

Selah!

Biblewriter said:

And here is the Tanuk version:

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Is that the 1992 version of the Tanakh given in the list above? If not, try that one again. Can you admit that there is a variant translation for this Zechariah 14:5 phrase? You have not gone over every single one of the versions in that quote above. It gave at least nine versions translating this phrase as "blocked up" instead of "ye shall flee". You write that you can refute 2 or maybe 3 of those versions. How about the other six? If this variant reading does exist, you have to address the reason why they translate it differently, and prove that reason to be wrong. Can you do that? Are there, or are there not two different ways to pronounce that Hebrew verb, as the quote above stated, resulting in two different translations of it?

Here is the simple logic that I use to refute the "ye shall flee" version. We know that the context of this Zechariah 14:4-5 verse is Christ's second coming when He stands on the Mount of Olives. There was to be an earthquake on that occasion that would break up the Mount of Olives. Then the translation you favor says that people will flee through a valley made by a split Mount of Olives when Christ returns to that Mount of Olives. WHY FLEE?? Why on earth would the saints at Jerusalem flee through a newly-created Valley away from the returning Christ who is standing on that mountain? Even if this is the wicked that were to flee, is there any way that fleeing from Christ's presence would allow them an escape? "Whither shall I flee from thy presence?" the Psalmist asked. This translation version of "ye shall flee" makes no sense whatever.

Another reason why I adopt the "blocked up" translation is that we literally do have two layers of earthquake rubble that have been archaeologically dated to be from the days of King Uzziah, and also from the AD 70 era. They presently fill up the Kidron Valley all the way to the "Wadi Yasul" past the southeastern corner of Jerusalem, which is the current name for "Azal" on today's maps of the Jerusalem area, preserved in the Arabic language.

The Kidron Valley used to be much deeper than it is today; much deeper in ancient times than its depth as documented in Josephus' description of the Kidron Valley. After all, it is a literal seismic fault line that runs up this Kidron Valley. The earthquake rubble coming from the crest of the Mount of Olives' being broken up on at least two occasions accounts for this difference in the Kidron Valley's depth. This filling up of the Kidron Valley would then support the alternate translation of the Valley being "blocked up", as the LXX and those other versions indicate.

As for the couple of lengthy comments you made above about the occurrence of the word "Gog" in scripture, none of that addresses the CIVIL WAR element that I wrote about, coming from Ezekiel 38:18-21. A simple reading of those three verses tells us that Gog's battle would involve Israelites fighting Israelites, when "every man's hand shall be against his brother" in that battle. There is actually no need to devote a dissertation to the subject.

In Revelation 20:8, "the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog" is specifically referring to the four corners of the land of Israel itself - not the globe at large. We know this by looking at Ezekiel 7:12.

"Also, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord God unto the land of Israel; An end, the end is come upon the four corners of the land. Now is the end come upon thee, and I will send mine anger upon thee..." Gog and Magog are linked together with the four corners of the land - of ISRAEL.

3 Resurrections said:

As for the couple of lengthy comments you made above about the occurrence of the word "Gog" in scripture, none of that addresses the CIVIL WAR element that I wrote about, coming from Ezekiel 38:18-21. A simple reading of those three verses tells us that Gog's battle would involve Israelites fighting Israelites, when "every man's hand shall be against his brother" in that battle. There is actually no need to devote a dissertation to the subject.

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You are getting warm but you still got wrong Israel here.

Ezekiel 38 and 39 are not about the physical nation of Israel or Jews in flesh. It is about the New Testament congregation of ISRAEL. It is a SPIRITUAL battle of Gog and Magog between "Israelites and Israelites" within the congregation of God. They are God chosen Elect fighting against false prophets and Christs for the control of the church. After God had finished building the church through the witness of His Two Witnesses (Elect) for the past 2,000 years, He allowed Satan to be loosened and come INTO His congregation as a judgment for her unfaithfulness. Satan is ruling through false prophets and christs with lying signs and wonders that deceived professed Christians (the men who have not yet sealed by God, Revelation 9). See? The Spiritual Battle of Gog and Magog is all about the judgment of an unfaithful congregation by God. This is taking place against the camps of the Saints all over the world, not national Israel in the Middle East. This battle is fought with the WORD of God and the wonders and lying signs of the Devil IN THE CHURCH which is now happening! So many professed Christians cannot this battle because they deny that their church is under judgment as Babylon the Great. That is why it is a great mystery to many who do not have the Spirit of Christ!

TribulationSigns, Scripture has a continual pattern of FIRST the physical, THEN the spiritual, as Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:46. You have to have a physical type FIRST, before a spiritual anti-type can THEN be the fulfillment for that former physical type.

God used Gog in the physical sense to utterly destroy the physical types which were already dead and decaying, ever since Christ established the spiritual New Covenant in His blood. Zechariah chapter 12-14 describes the "funeral" for Old Covenant Jerusalem and His openly manifesting New Covenant Jerusalem. Zechariah 12-14 prophesied of when God would physically obliterate the Old Covenant trappings, so that no one could go back to those physical types again.

3 Resurrections said:

Is that the 1992 version of the Tanakh given in the list above? If not, try that one again. Can you admit that there is a variant translation for this Zechariah 14:5 phrase? You have not gone over every single one of the versions in that quote above. It gave at least nine versions translating this phrase as "blocked up" instead of "ye shall flee". You write that you can refute 2 or maybe 3 of those versions. How about the other six? If this variant reading does exist, you have to address the reason why they translate it differently, and prove that reason to be wrong. Can you do that? Are there, or are there not two different ways to pronounce that Hebrew verb, as the quote above stated, resulting in two different translations of it?

Here is the simple logic that I use to refute the "ye shall flee" version. We know that the context of this Zechariah 14:4-5 verse is Christ's second coming when He stands on the Mount of Olives. There was to be an earthquake on that occasion that would break up the Mount of Olives. Then the translation you favor says that people will flee through a valley made by a split Mount of Olives when Christ returns to that Mount of Olives. WHY FLEE?? Why on earth would the saints at Jerusalem flee through a newly-created Valley away from the returning Christ who is standing on that mountain? Even if this is the wicked that were to flee, is there any way that fleeing from Christ's presence would allow them an escape? "Whither shall I flee from thy presence?" the Psalmist asked. This translation version of "ye shall flee" makes no sense whatever.

Another reason why I adopt the "blocked up" translation is that we literally do have two layers of earthquake rubble that has been archaeologically dated to be from the days of King Uzziah, and also from the AD 70 era. They presently fill up the Kidron Valley all the way to the "Wadi Yasul" past the southeastern corner of Jerusalem, which is the current name for "Azal" on today's maps of the Jerusalem area, preserved in the Arabic language.

The Kidron Valley used to be much deeper than it is today; much deeper in ancient times than its depth as documented in Josephus' description of the Kidron Valley. After all, it is a literal seismic fault line that runs up this Kidron Valley. The earthquake rubble coming from the crest of the Mount of Olives' being broken up on at least two occasions accounts for this difference in the Kidron Valley's depth. This filling up of the Kidron Valley would then support the alternate translation of the Valley being "blocked up", as the LXX and those other versions indicate.

As for the couple of lengthy comments you made above about the occurrence of the word "Gog" in scripture, none of that addresses the CIVIL WAR element that I wrote about, coming from Ezekiel 38:18-21. A simple reading of those three verses tells us that Gog's battle would involve Israelites fighting Israelites, when "every man's hand shall be against his brother" in that battle. There is actually no need to devote a dissertation to the subject.

In Revelation 20:8, "the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog" is specifically referring to the four corners of the land of Israel itself - not the globe at large. We know this by looking at Ezekiel 7:12.

"Also, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord God unto the land of Israel; An end, the end is come upon the four corners of the land. Now is the end come upon thee, and I will send mine anger upon thee..." Gog and Magog are linked together with the four corners of the land - of ISRAEL.

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I am not going to devote a large amount of research into the question of the text pf Zechariah 14. I simply demonstrate that at least three of your alleged sources did not say what you claimed they said.

But I have already devoted many LITERAL decades of research into the identification of the nations mentioned in Ezekiel 28 and 39. There is absolutely zero chance that you are correct that this is speaking of a civil war between factions of Israel. The nations mentioned are very specific, and are explicitly mentioned in numerous historical documents that I have personally examined. And not even one of them could even possibly be a reference to any part of the ancient nation of Israel.

I treated all of this in my Book, "Keys to Bible Prophecy." and the information I presented on this one subject alone was so extensive that it filled seven pages in the book.

Biblewriter said:

I am not going to devote a large amount of research into the question of the text pf Zechariah 14. But I have already devoted many LITERAL decades of research into the identification of the nations mentioned in Ezekiel 28 and 39. There is absolutely zero chance that you are correct that this is speaking of a civil war between factions of Israel. The nations mentioned are very specific, and are explicitly mentioned in numerous historical documents that I have personally examined. And not even one of them could even possibly be a reference to any part of the ancient nation of Israel.

I treated all of this in my Book, "Keys to Bible Prophecy." and the information I presented on this one subject alone was so extensive that it filled seven pages in the book.

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Do you have the time to answer the few question I asked above? If you don't, that's okay. I know people are busy, but your comment didn't address any of the concerns I asked you about. I appreciate that you have spent much time in research, but as I read the scripture, it seems that God has a pattern of hiding things in plain sight usually. Keep it simple is usually the better practice. It's not always beneficial to be one of the "wise and prudent".

3 Resurrections said:

There is nothing in scripture that prevents God from opening the books more than once, and from having another Great White Throne Judgment at His next coming. After all, "we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ", which of necessity includes those saints like us living since AD 70's resurrection at Christ's second coming back then. We, too, will have our turn in a judgment of rewards - more or less, as the case may be.

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Kind of like : one Millennium ended and another Millennium began?

Revelation is a letter specifically sent to 7 churches in what is now Turkey. It had to be relevant to them. This is one obvious reason that pre-Millennial interpretations cannot be true. These congregations were not all Jewish believers. So, an interpretation that concentrates solely on Judea cannot be true, either.

There is no doubt that certain scenes make a lot more sense in a 1st century Judean milieu rather than a fanciful futuristic scheme. But full Preterism does not make sense to me. Still, I definitely commend your historical research about 1st century Israel.

3 Resurrections said:

Keep it simple is usually the better practice. It's not always beneficial to be one of the "wise and prudent".

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Relying on aberrant readings that, aside from a single ancient source, are only found in "translations" that come from compromised sources (Roman Catholic, Jehovah's Witness, and modernist Jews) is not "keeping it simple."

But in all your arguments that Zechariah 14:3-5 has been fulfilled, you are completely neglecting what verse 4 so explicitly says, "And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south." Zechariah 14:4b

This has unquestionably never happened. For "the Mount of Olives" has NOT been "split in two from the east to the west." Half of it has NOT "moved toward the north." And half of it has NOT "moved toward the south."

So, even if your aberrant reading of "blocked," instead of "flee" were correct, the claim that there is archeological proof that this has happened are simply nonsense. For there is NO "very large valley" running from the east to the west between the north and south halves of "the Mount of Olives."

Andrewn said:

Revelation is a letter specifically sent to 7 churches in what is now Turkey. It had to be relevant to them. This is one obvious reason that pre-Millennial interpretations cannot be true. These congregations were not all Jewish believers. So, an interpretation that concentrates solely on Judea cannot be true, either.

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You are right; the tribulations of that era featured more than just the "Days of Vengeance" concentrated on the unbelieving Jews. There were also tribulations that would occur in the whole habitable world. That is why we have Paul warning the Athenian audience on Mars Hill that "...He did set a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom He did ordain, having given assurance to all, having raised Him out of the dead." (Acts 17:31 YLT). That "world" which would be judged used the Greek word "oikoumenen", which referred to all the known world which was about to be judged in Paul's days.

When we go down the list of specific tribulations in Luke 21, besides the "Days of Vengeance" which would be concentrated on judging the unbelieving Jews upon the earth (tes ges - the land of Isreael), there would also be men's hearts failing from fear when they saw things that would be coming in the world (oikoumene - the whole habitable world of the time).

Those years leading up to the AD 66-70 era were generally characterized by a notable increase in famines, pestilences, wars and commotions, and great earthquakes in divers places. Jesus warned that these would be taking place in the world at large (the "beginning of sorrows"), even before the Great Tribulation descended upon the Jews in AD 66. We even have some of these mentioned in the book of Acts (a world-wide famine predicted by Agabus, the Egyptian bringing a group of 4,000 insurrectionists out into the wilderness, an earthquake at Phillipi, the two-week storm during Paul's voyage to Rome, the "fiery trial" of Nero's persecution of the saints in 1 Peter 4:12, etc.)

The encouragement that John gave in his seven letters to the seven literal churches in Asia was to fortify the faithful ones among them for the disasters and temptations they would soon be facing in their near future. Nero's war on the saints in Rome was only five years in the future at that point, and within the year, some of them in Smyrna would be thrown into prison for their faith. If they remained faithful, even unto death, they would be able to participate in the bodily resurrection for the saints that was on the near horizon for them, which came in AD 70.

Biblewriter said:

So, even if your aberrant reading of "blocked," instead of "flee" were correct, the claim that there is archeological proof that this has happened are simply nonsense. For there is NO "very large valley" running from the east to the west between the north and south halves of "the Mount of Olives."

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What do you think happens when the top of a mountain breaks apart in an earthquake? All the broken rubble slides downhill.

When I speak of "keeping it simple", I am talking about looking only at Ezekiel 38:18-21, which clearly shows Gog engaging in a civil war against fellow Israelites, since that battle would have "every man's hand shall be against his brother."

Also, Revelation 20:8 when compared to Ezekiel 7:2-3 clearly shows that the "nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog" were coming from the four corners of the land of Israel.

Biblewriter said:

But in all your arguments that Zechariah 14:3-5 has been fulfilled, you are completely neglecting what verse 4 so explicitly says, "And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south." Zechariah 14:4b

This has unquestionably never happened. For "the Mount of Olives" has NOT been "split in two from the east to the west." Half of it has NOT "moved toward the north." And half of it has NOT "moved toward the south."

So, even if your aberrant reading of "blocked," instead of "flee" were correct, the claim that there is archeological proof that this has happened are simply nonsense. For there is NO "very large valley" running from the east to the west between the north and south halves of "the Mount of Olives."

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While I agree that Preterism's interpretation of Zechariah 14:3-4 isn't accurate, but God also did not talk about the splitting of a literal mountain in the Middle East in the future either.

The Bible is a Spiritual Book, not a seismologist's ledger.

God's not interested in splitting literal mountains, except to make the point about the cleaving of the Kingdom that a way is made for the remnant to escape.

Zechariah 14:4-5

• "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
• And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. "

Matthew 17:20

• "And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you."

Casting out devils is associated with Matthew 17 because it is a kingdom (mountain) He Christ spoiled, bound Satan so that He might free the captivity of Israel. It is the faith of Christ that moves this mountain, and the mountain in view is NOT a physical mountain, but a spiritual one. Mountains in God's word represent Kingdoms. And the kingdom that was removed by the faith of Christ was the one that suffered violence, and that the violent took by force. This kingdom was split in two, making a valley that a way could be made for the remnant to escape. For example, it was the fall of Old Testament Congregaton of Israel to make the way for the remnant (Peter, James, John, and all of Christs' believers) to escape into the new kingdom, the New Testament Congregation of Israel the Church! The destruction of the kingdom (mountain) cast into the sea creates a valley that God's people therein might escape. This was fulfilled in Christ Jesus by His Faithfulness and His cross.

His feet did stand upon the mount of olives, and the mount did cleave. The problem is, a lot of people don't accept that the Bible is a very Spiritual book that has to be understood Spiritually. Sadly, understanding Scripture "Spiritually" has become almost like a "dirty word" to them. Nevertheless, the mount or mountain represents a kingdom. i.e., Christ came to the Mount of Olives, indeed rode into Jerusalem on a colt as King from the Mount of Olives

He preached on the Mount of Olives, prayed on the Mount of Olives, was betrayed by Judas with a kiss on the Mount of Olives, indeed left earth from the Mount of Olives. And by His coming (and the consequent rejecting of Him by His people), He destroyed THIS mountain or Kingdom. The valley that was left was for the remnant to flee. This is not physical but Spiritual! Just as nearly all of God's prophecies are. Why would this be any different? Take for example the prophecy of Isaiah 40.

Isaiah 40:3-4

• "The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
• Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:"

Who takes this literally/Physically? Of course, no one! But they would if it suited their purpose. That is why the doctrines of premillennialism and preterism err. This has NOTHING whatsoever to do with literal/physical Mountains and valleys being made low by physical earthquakes. It has nothing whatsoever to do with building a physical highway in the physical desert. But this is "The Way" God speaks in His prophecies to show us Spiritual truths. For example, Elijah didn't Physically come back to earth to do this, right? Nevertheless, this prophesy was very "literally" fulfilled by John The Baptist because he was Spiritually "Elijah" (Luke 1:17) prophesied to come! Selah!

...that some people (even today) do NOT understand this does not make it null and void or unfulfilled. Likewise with the dividing or cleaving of the Mountain.

Daniel 11:4

• "And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those."

Tell me. HOW can a kingdom be broken? Certainly not physically, but only spiritually in the sense of its power to rule IS GONE! And here again, we have a kingdom cleaved in fours, but again, it has nothing whatsoever to do with a land ruled by a king physically splitting it apart, nor with seismic activity occurring in a mountain. It is Spiritual language "illustrating" rule has been broken up.

Matthew 12:25

• "And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:"

Kingdoms are divided, and mountains represent kingdoms. The Bible is a Spiritual Book, not a book detailing the prophecied very physical collapse of bricks or stones or mountains--nor of the very physical creation of valleys, highways in the desert or living waters (H20) flowing in the Middle East. Sadly, that is something that some people, even here, will just never learn, no matter how much I explain it to them with supporting Scriptures. Because it is Spiritually discerned, thus any aversion to Spiritual discernment will leave one without it!

3 Resurrections said:

What do you think happens when the top of a mountain breaks apart in an earthquake? All the broken rubble slides downhill.

When I speak of "keeping it simple", I am talking about looking only at Ezekiel 38:18-21, which clearly shows Gog engaging in a civil war against fellow Israelites, since that battle would have "every man's hand shall be against his brother."

Also, Revelation 20:8 when compared to Ezekiel 7:2-3 clearly shows that the "nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog" were coming from the four corners of the land of Israel.

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That is not "keeping it simple." It is wresting the words of God in a vain attempt to deny what they so explicitly say.