Biden job approval re direction of the country. 29%

sfs

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And natural immunity means nothing then?
No, natural post-infection immunity means quite a lot. In this context, it means that those who are dying are mostly those who haven't been infected previously and who also haven't been vaccinated. Since the latter point is the only thing under discussion, why did you bring up natural immunity?
 
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sfs

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I wish democracy would go away much much sooner, as democracy is what gives power to the wicked to rule over the just.
Um, no. Democracy is indeed one system of government that gives power to the wicked to rule over the just but it's hardly the only one. Other systems that also give the wicked the same power include absolute monarchy, oligarchy, tribal chiefdom, theocracy, and anarchy. Historically, democracy has done a better job than most at limiting the power of the wicked.
 
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topher694

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No, natural post-infection immunity means quite a lot. In this context, it means that those who are dying are mostly those who haven't been infected previously and who also haven't been vaccinated. Since the latter point is the only thing under discussion, why did you bring up natural immunity?
Well I was trying to have a conversation with one person, but several others have jumped in and it's kind of lost all direction. Originally it was in the context of the pandemic continuing/ending and I was trying to determine if natural immunity was being considered by the person that brought it up, and to what degree.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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sfs

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Well I was trying to have a conversation with one person, but several others have jumped in and it's kind of lost all direction.
That tends to happen on a discussion forum.
Originally it was in the context of the pandemic continuing/ending and I was trying to determine if natural immunity was being considered by the person that brought it up, and to what degree.
I don't know about the other person, but I'm quite certain that those who choose to remain unvaccinated (especially the unvaccinated who don't know they've been previously infected) are making the pandemic substantially worse in the United States than it has to be, and not just for themselves.
 
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topher694

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I don't know about the other person, but I'm quite certain that those who choose to remain unvaccinated (especially the unvaccinated who don't know they've been previously infected) are making the pandemic substantially worse in the United States than it has to be, and not just for themselves.
And how are they making it worse for others?
 
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Desk trauma

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All the more reason to promote a third option.
https://solidarity-party.org/
In a few decades they may be worth taking note of but I doubt it.

Third parties in the US have a fixation on getting attention via presidential politics or other federal level offices that they have no hope of winning to the detriment of building from the boring local/state offices that they need to hold to get established. There are currently 13 third party state level office holders in the entire country, excluding Puerto Rico as that's a whole different kettle of something, work on that if you want the top spot.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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So if they got vaccinated that would stop?
In a few decades they may be worth taking note of but I doubt it.

Third parties in the US have a fixation on getting attention via presidential politics or other federal level offices that they have no hope of winning to the detriment of building from the boring local/state offices that they need to hold to get established. There are currently 13 third party state level office holders in the entire country, excluding Puerto Rico as that's a whole different kettle of something, work on that if you want the top spot.
Suppose Trump runs as an independent?
 
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jayem

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Well I was trying to have a conversation with one person, but several others have jumped in and it's kind of lost all direction. Originally it was in the context of the pandemic continuing/ending and I was trying to determine if natural immunity was being considered by the person that brought it up, and to what degree.

Post-infection immunity is no doubt valuable. But if that’s your focus, you’re missing the big picture. Which obviously, is the cost of being infected with SARS-CoV-2. Most people will recover, but it may take 2-6 weeks. Many will feel like dirt. They won’t be able to work. They’ll have to quarantine themselves at home. If they don’t have paid sick leave, they’ll lose money. They’ll have out-of-pocket co-pays for doctor visits, and lab tests, and will need certification that they’ve recovered are no longer contagious. As of recent data (see the link) 2.1% of patients will need hospitalization. (Including a higher percentage of people over 60 and those with pre-existing medical problems.) Not a large percentage, but it’s 100s of 1000s of people nationwide. It’s severely stressed our health care system, and in some places has made hospital beds a precious rarity. Health insurers have so far been mum, but I can’t imagine that premiums won’t significantly increase in the next few years.

How Many SARS-CoV-2-Infected People Require Hospitalization? Using Random Sample Testing to Better Inform Preparedness Efforts - PubMed

Yes, one can recover from Covid and have natural immunity (at least from that particular strain.) But it comes at an enormous societal and financial cost. It’s so much easier and more cost-effective to get vaccinated.
 
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Desk trauma

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Suppose Trump runs as an independent?
1992 part two, electric boogaloo. His faithful split the conservative vote, the Republican goes down in flames and we are left with whatever incarnation of mediocrity the Democrats put forward.

Like I thought was going to happen in 2016 because surely the republicans would have the sense to not give him the nomination with the added bonus of it being Bush Vs. Clinton on the ticket so take my prognostications with a cup or so of salt...
 
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miamited

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Hi @keith,

Quick question, how many people do you know that have died of covid, and did they die of covid, or with covid?

I know of two close acquaintances that died of Covid. At least that was what the loved ones said they died of. Whether they actually did or not, hey, I'm not a medical doctor and I wasn't there treating them and performing the tests to determine that they did or didn't have Covid.

Little known fact, the terms conspiracy theory, and conspiracy theorists were created when the CIA wanted us to stop believing the CIA was committing evil.

https://theconversation.com/theres-...d-the-term-conspiracy-theory-heres-why-132117

Last question, do you hate me because I refuse the vaccine, or do you hate me because they tell you those that refuse the vaccine should be feared?

Why would you think I hate you? I don't even know you!! Just because you understand things differently than I do is no cause for hate. However, I can see, based on the rest of your post, that it helps to bolster in your mind that everyone's against you and provides you a type of self-righteousness to label those who disagree with you as haters. It's the same method many homosexuals use to bolster their self-righteousness in themselves. They just brush off all the people who don't agree with their lifestyle as haters. Of course, you're very, very wily. You pose the question so that either way I answer your question, leaves the fact that 'I hate you' out there on the table.

Look, be comforted that I don't hate you. I think you're wrong about most of what you posted. I think you're wrong to claim that 'conspiracy' and 'conspiracy theorist' are new terms coined by some work of the CIA. I think you're wrong about whatever you believe that causes you to not want to get vaccinated. But look, I'm fully vacinated. So why would I fear or hate you over your choice? I'm protected against you, should you be carrying the virus.

I try like mad to understand the logic, it escapes me, how the protected aren't protected until the unprotected are protected too... Please, let me die if I am to die, choosing not to believe in a substance created of dead cells, nor believing in those that claim they wish to save me while systematically destroying every thing that makes life bearable.

Reading over your post and what you seem to have sold yourself as the truth, I can actually understand why you can't understand the logic of how the protected aren't protected until the unprotected are protected too. You see, that's not why everyone is pushing others to get vaccinated. You're just spinning your wheels making and supporting claims that are just completely and totally not a part of the issue. We all want everyone to get vaccinated to stop the death and sickness that is crippling people and the economy and life as we used to know it. We'd like to get back to some semblance of normalcy and we all can't really do that until we're all safe from one another.

Yes, you have every right to die however you see fit. But there are a lot of people, myself included that don't want to die by Covid and yes, getting as many people vaccinated as possible, right now, is the only way to do that. From your final cry there, I hear a person who is cynical and feels like the whole world is trying to tear them apart. Look, I'm sorry you feel that way about life, but that's not where I am. I love God and His Son Jesus and I want to live my days until He calls me home. I am trusting of others and I get along well with others. I don't even lock my doors of my home or my vehicles. I have even been known to leave my keys in my vehicles. I live in what I consider to be a safe neighborhood of friendly folks that I have gone out, in the year that I've lived here, and shaken hands and talked to all of my immediate neighbors.

The neighbor across the street is a lovely lady whose husband is an invalid and we've talked for some time across her side fence. The neighbor catty-corner from me takes me to worship service every Sunday. He and I talked when I was a new neighbor and he invited me to his fellowship and I've been going there for about 6 months now. My neighbor next door, I talk to just about every day when they're out there letting their dog do his business. My other next door neighbor, I don't see as much because there's an acre of land separating us, but I've gone over and talked to him and introduced myself. I try to be friendly and people are generally friendly back. So I have a pretty comfortable trust in others. I enjoy my life and hopefully you will too.

But, so long as you continue to drink the Kool-Aide of conspiracy theories and think that the whole world is out to get you, then you likely won't ever enjoy that kind of peace about your life.

God bless,
Ted
 
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sfs

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So if they got vaccinated that would stop?
If they got vaccinated there would be less of it. Going forward, keeping transmission low might require booster doses or better vaccines, but even the first generation of vaccines reduce transmission substantially. That's really important for those who can't be protected by vaccination.
 
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topher694

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Post-infection immunity is no doubt valuable. But if that’s your focus, you’re missing the big picture. Which obviously, is the cost of being infected with SARS-CoV-2. Most people will recover, but it may take 2-6 weeks. Many will feel like dirt. They won’t be able to work. They’ll have to quarantine themselves at home. If they don’t have paid sick leave, they’ll lose money. They’ll have out-of-pocket co-pays for doctor visits, and lab tests, and will need certification that they’ve recovered are no longer contagious. As of recent data (see the link) 2.1% of patients will need hospitalization. (Including a higher percentage of people over 60 and those with pre-existing medical problems.) Not a large percentage, but it’s 100s of 1000s of people nationwide. It’s severely stressed our health care system, and in some places has made hospital beds a precious rarity. Health insurers have so far been mum, but I can’t imagine that premiums won’t significantly increase in the next few years.

How Many SARS-CoV-2-Infected People Require Hospitalization? Using Random Sample Testing to Better Inform Preparedness Efforts - PubMed

Yes, one can recover from Covid and have natural immunity (at least from that particular strain.) But it comes at an enormous societal and financial cost. It’s so much easier and more cost-effective to get vaccinated.
Who said that was my focus? I'm just trying to determine if it's a consideration and to what degree. At this point one way or another many have already been through it.
 
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topher694

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If they got vaccinated there would be less of it. Going forward, keeping transmission low might require booster doses or better vaccines, but even the first generation of vaccines reduce transmission substantially. That's really important for those who can't be protected by vaccination.
I see, so your belief is that vaccination lessens the transmission. Who is it that "can't be protected by the vaccine"?
 
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RocksInMyHead

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I see, so your belief is that vaccination lessens the transmission.
Framing it as a "belief" is misleading. It's pretty well-proven scientifically that vaccination (including against COVID-19) reduces the rate of transmission substantially.
Who is it that "can't be protected by the vaccine"?
Those who have adverse reactions to it or are allergic to one or more of the components. There will always be people who are unable to receive a vaccine (not just the COVID vaccine) for a variety of medical reasons.
 
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topher694

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Framing it as a "belief" is misleading. It's pretty well-proven scientifically that vaccination (including against COVID-19) reduces the rate of transmission substantially.

Those who have adverse reactions to it or are allergic to one or more of the components. There will always be people who are unable to receive a vaccine (not just the COVID vaccine) for a variety of medical reasons.
I see so we must vaccinate people to protect people who may have adverse reactions to the vaccine. So, how do we identify these people who may have adverse reactions to the vaccine?
 
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RocksInMyHead

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I see so must vaccinate people to protect people who may have adverse reactions to the vaccine. So, how do we identify these people who may have adverse reactions to the vaccine?
Vaccines have known components. Most people who have allergies to known vaccine components are aware of those allergies. People with medical conditions that make it dangerous to take a vaccine are generally aware of that fact. And some people are unlucky and discover that they will have an adverse reaction when they receive the vaccine (that's why they ask you to stay in the waiting area for 15 minutes after getting your shot). However, since only one of the current vaccines is a single shot and all will require boosters to maintain effectiveness, even those who had an adverse reaction after receiving the COVID vaccine will not be fully protected by that vaccine.
 
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