Jesus claimed He came to fulfill the Law, Did He?

Abaxvahl said:

All was accomplished when the Lord said "it is finished" on the Cross.

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That's not WHY Jesus said "It is finished"... and it's not WHAT was finished, either.

John 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. 29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put [it] upon hyssop, and put [it] to His mouth. 30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, He said, "It is finished": and He bowed His head, and gave up the ghost.

Exodus 12:21 And Moses called all the elders of the children of Israel, and said to them, Go away and take to yourselves a lamb according to your kindreds, and slay the passover. 22 And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and having dipped it into some of the blood that is by the door, ye shall touch the lintel, and shall put it upon both door-posts, even of the blood which is by the door; but ye shall not go out every one from the door of his house till the morning. ... 26 And it shall come to pass, if your sons say to you, What is this service? 27 that ye shall say to them, "This Passover is a sacrifice to the Lord, as He defended the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when He smote the Egyptians, but delivered our houses."

Bob S said:

One poster claims Jesus didn't fulfill ALL the Law, but Jesus in Matt 5: 17 said; “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. Notice Jesus didn't say some of the laws, like the poster claims, because there is no qualifier in His words. Then Jesus went on to tell us that nothing could be removed from said Law until everything was accomplished. The poster also claims that indeed some of the commands of the Law have been fulfilled and are no longer required to be kept. It appears that the poster has been given the discretion to choose what commands can be disregarded.

To those of us posters that believe Jesus did what He came to do, fulfill all the Law, the poster threatens that unless we abide by the commands of the Law we are in a lawless state. According to him/her we have to keep the commands of the Law with emphasis on the Sabbath command in order to be saved.

So, the reason for this thread is to discuss Matt 5:17-18. Did Jesus fail to fulfill what He came to do or did He keep His word and during His stay on this Earth bring an end to the Law? We have no qualms about His fulfilling and bringing to a final end the prophecies concerning Him. Why do some hesitate to believe He did the same for the Law?

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1 Corinthians 13 1
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

We can indeed know that we have a high priest who fulfilled all the law because this is what he said. “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
The Lord didn't live, die and ascend to only fulfill some and leave us wondering which ones those might be.

I think people have a tendency to believe they are under some laws because it appeals to the natural state of man. That by our own doing we can somehow achieve God's favour. Which is really 'in our own striving'. When nothing we do does that, it is all of God and his Grace.

Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

Ligurian said:

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the Law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till Heaven and Earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least Commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

pleroo = to make replete, cram up, fully preach.
ginomai = to cause to be ("gen"-erate), be performed.

Revelation 21:1-6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

More righteous than the whitewashed Pharisees, because Kingdom Law judges the heart:

Matthew 5:27-28 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am He which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
nephros = inmost mind.

Your works stem from what you think. This is why Jesus says the church of Sardis is dead... she forgot how she received and heard.

Jeremiah says the Father will write His Law on our hearts. So, the heart is what's being judged in the New Covenant. And the Holy Spirit is received by those who Keep Jesus' Commandments to remind them what Jesus taught the Twelve, and teach them what Jesus means, and then teach them things to come Revelation 4:1.

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Not exactly sure what you are saying?

Galatians 3:2
This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Did you receive the Holy Spirit because you kept the commands?

You seem to be saying the opposite of Galatians 3:2.

Do you believe that Jesus fulfilled the law?

If not and you want to submit to the law. Then you are required to obey the entire law.

No one can say I will only obey one law, or two laws, perhaps even as many as three laws.

The law does not work like that.

Galatians 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.

All the law has to be obeyed and not some unknown subset.

Ligurian said:

Matthew 22:37-38 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. Deuteronomy 13:3

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That's the greatest commandment in the law. That commandment cannot save anyone.

Here Ligurian, gaze upon the two commandments that were apart from the law. These two commandments grant eternal life. Whereas the law only grants the knowledge of sin and condemnation.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

John 13:34
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

HIM said:

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
There is no need for law where there is no sin.

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Sin is transgression of the Law. Little children be not deceived they that do righteousness are righteous EVEN AS HE is righteous. He that sin is of the Devil. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested. TO DESTROY THE WORKS OF THE DEVIL.

So What is it that the law was made for?
1Tim 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
1Tim 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Tim 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

What is it to be lawless and disobedient?

Ungodly?

A sinner?

Unholy?

And profane?

klutedavid said:

Did Jesus not need to fulfill the second coming when He first arrived?


Somehow you missed the fulfillment of all things? (Luke 21:22, Luke 21:32)

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Nah We wait as Paul.

1Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

coffee4u said:

1 Corinthians 13 1
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

We can indeed know that we have a high priest who fulfilled all the law because this is what he said. “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
The Lord didn't live, die and ascend to only fulfill some and leave us wondering which ones those might be.

I think people have a tendency to believe they are under some laws because it appeals to the natural state of man. That by our own doing we can somehow achieve God's favour. Which is really 'in our own striving'. When nothing we do does that, it is all of God and his Grace.

Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

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According to the scriptures if we through faith in Gods' Word have repented from our sins and believe Gods promise of forgiveness we are no longer "under the laws" condemnation and penalty of death *Romans 8:1-4; Romans 6:23. No one is "under the law" according to the scriptures unless they stand guilty before God of breaking the law *Romans 3:19-20. Jesus did not fulfill the law so that we are now free to break the law *Matthew 5:17-28. He was our example who we are to follow *John 10:27 showing us that the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit *Romans 8:4 in God's new covenant promises *Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27. It is true that we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. As posted somewhere else, obedience to God's law is not how we are saved it is the fruit of genuine faith *James 2:17-26 of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation *John 3:16 and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; 1 John 2:3-4; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14. At the second coming Christs reward is with him *Revelation 22:12.

Takes care.

The Law is for the sinner, the ungodly and disobedient. If this true of us then we are still under the judgement and condemnation of it.

Bob S said:

Seems not one poster who claims Jesus didn't fulfill all He came to do believe the Law is still enforce. I have no idea how much of the Law Messianics observe, but I do have knowledge of the part of the Law SDAs observe. May I remind both groups that Jesus said not one jot or one tittle can be removed from the Law until all is accomplished. You argue that everything has not been accomplished therefore you must be observant. The big question then are you really fully observant and if you are not fully observant why aren't you? Is one command of the Law not as important as another so that you can disregard some of what would pertain to you?

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God's Word does not teach lawlessness (without law) like some like to promote here at CF. This is a false teaching that is not biblical or supported by the scriptures. Sin which is defined in the scriptures is still the transgression of the law *1 John 3:4 and without the law we have no knowledge of what sin is *Romans 3:20. So according to the new covenant scriptures, Gods' 10 commandments have the same role they always have and that is they give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172 and according to the scriptures if we break anyone of them we stand guilty before God in sin *James 2:10-11. If there is no law we have no knowledge of what sin is because sin is the transgression of God's law and not believing and following what Gods' Word says *Romans 3:20; 1 John 3:4; Romans 14:23; John 10:26:27 and if we have no knowledge of what sin is we have no need of a Savior and God's salvation from sin. This is why Jesus says; "They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick but go you and learn what that means, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." - Matthew 12:9-10. The law is our schoolmaster to lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith *Galatians 3:22-25. "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness (see Psalms 119:172 which defines righteousness) is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that commits sin is of the devil..." Whoever is born of God does not commit sin (break God's law 1 John 3:4); for his seed (the Word of God - Luke 8:11) remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." *1 John 3:8-9. "My little children, these things write I to you, that you sin not. And if any man sin (breaks Gods law), we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. Hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. - 1 John 2:1-4

Gods Word does not teach lawlessness Bob.

Take Care.

HARK! said:

To look at your own words from another perspective, if all of the law hasn't passed away; then none of it has.

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Only one letter of the law needs to pass. That's what Jesus said anyway.

Matthew 5:18
For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

If the letter of the law regarding circumcision has passed, then logically, all has been accomplished by Jesus.

Put your hand up if you do not understand this?

Not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished

HIM said:

The Law is for the sinner, the ungodly and disobedient. If this true of us then we are still under the judgement and condemnation of it.

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I am not under the law, I was not born under the law.

I am not subject to the condemnation or the judgment of the law.

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

Romans 8:1
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

John 3:18
He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

HARK! said:

I'm fully observant. Aren't you? If not; why not? Has all of the Torah and the prophets been fulfilled? Do you not believe that Yahshua has more to do? Do you reject his second coming? Has heaven and earth passed away? To look at your own words from another perspective, if all of the law hasn't passed away; then none of it has. Do you believe that all of the law has passed away? Do you believe that is the teaching of Yahshua's ministry?

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The second coming of Jesus to judge the living and the dead, is not a condition that needs to be fulfilled. All the things that needed to be fulfilled concerned the messiah.

Jesus accomplished all those things during His time with us, Jesus fulfilled all things.

Luke 18:31
Then He took the twelve aside and said to them, “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and all things which are written through the prophets about the Son of Man will be accomplished.

Luke 21:32
Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place.

Ligurian said:

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the Law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till Heaven and Earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least Commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

pleroo = to make replete, cram up, fully preach.
ginomai = to cause to be ("gen"-erate), be performed.

Revelation 21:1-6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

More righteous than the whitewashed Pharisees, because Kingdom Law judges the heart:

Matthew 5:27-28 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am He which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
nephros = inmost mind.

Your works stem from what you think. This is why Jesus says the church of Sardis is dead... she forgot how she received and heard.

Jeremiah says the Father will write His Law on our hearts. So, the heart is what's being judged in the New Covenant. And the Holy Spirit is received by those who Keep Jesus' Commandments to remind them what Jesus taught the Twelve, and teach them what Jesus means, and then teach them things to come Revelation 4:1.

Click to expand...

klutedavid said:

Not exactly sure what you are saying?

Galatians 3:2
This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Did you receive the Holy Spirit because you kept the commands?

You seem to be saying the opposite of Galatians 3:2.

Do you believe that Jesus fulfilled the law?

If not and you want to submit to the law. Then you are required to obey the entire law.

Click to expand...

whew... finally, someone who gets it.
Yes, Galatians 3:2 is the opposite of John 14:15-17. Which proves that Galatians 2:7-9 is correct.

However, you are not correct in what you think fulfilling the Law means... didn't I show you the Greek words and what they mean? Sure I did... Jesus fully preached the Law. Remember where Jesus says Moses allowed them to toss their wives away, for something other than adultery, because of the hardness of their hearts? Well, more is expected from the children of the Kingdom than hard hearts.

Therefore, Jesus didn't just speak the Law of Moses... again. "BUT I SAY UNTO YOU"... shows this truth, unmistakably. The teaching of the Laws for the Kingdom of Heaven, which they call the Sermon on the Mount, runs from Matthew 5:2 through Matthew 7:28-29... and this is what Jesus say at the end of this sermon:

Matthew 7:24-25 Therefore whosoever heareth these words of Mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon the rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon the rock.

Matthew 14:15-17 If ye love Me, keep My Commandments, and I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever: the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him, but ye know Him, for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 12:44-50 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on Me, believeth not on Me, but on Him that sent Me; and He that seeth Me seeth Him that sent Me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on Me should not abide in darkness; and if any man hear My words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of Myself; but the Father which sent Me, He gave Me a Commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His Commandment is Life Everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.

Deuteronomy 18:15The Lord thy God shall raise up to thee a prophet of thy brethren, like me; him shall ye hear: 16according to all things which thou didst desire of the Lord thy God in Choreb in the day of the assembly, saying, We will not again hear the voice of the Lord thy God, and we will not any more see this great fire, and so we shall not die. 17And the Lord said to me, They have spoken rightly all that they have said to thee. 18 I will raise up to them a prophet of their brethren, like thee; and I will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them as I shall command Him. 19And whatever man shall not hearken to whatsoever words that prophet shall speak in My name, I will take vengeance on him.LXX

Leavened but Adopted said:

Jesus claimed He came to fulfill the Law, Did He? Yes. John 19:30 John 5:46, Luke 24:27, Luke 24:44

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Fulfill in context to Matthew 5:17-28 does not mean destroy. See post # 21 linked

LoveGodsWord said:

Fulfill in context to Matthew 5:17-28 does not mean destroy. See post # 21 linked

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Matthew 5:18, Christ won't come back until the last Jew and Gentile are saved. Today, we as humans don't know who's a Jew or Gentile, only God does.

As for verse 19+20, i believe that's in relation to those Christ was speaking to, who try to gain salvation by obeying all the OT law's' (613 of them) and refused Christ as their saviour. If you break one, you break them all.

Christ was the only one who could obey all the laws and precepts.

peace and love in Christ our saviour

Ligurian said:

whew... finally, someone who gets it.
Yes, Galatians 3:2 is the opposite of John 14:15-17. Which proves that Galatians 2:7-9 is correct.

However, you are not correct in what you think fulfilling the Law means... didn't I show you the Greek words and what they mean? Sure I did... Jesus fully preached the Law. Remember where Jesus says Moses allowed them to toss their wives away, for something other than adultery, because of the hardness of their hearts? Well, more is expected from the children of the Kingdom than hard hearts.

Therefore, Jesus didn't just speak the Law of Moses... again. "BUT I SAY UNTO YOU"... shows this truth, unmistakably. The teaching of the Laws for the Kingdom of Heaven, which they call the Sermon on the Mount, runs from Matthew 5:2 through Matthew 7:28-29... and this is what Jesus say at the end of this sermon:

Matthew 7:24-25 Therefore whosoever heareth these words of Mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon the rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon the rock.

Matthew 14:15-17 If ye love Me, keep My Commandments, and I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever: the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him, but ye know Him, for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 12:44-50 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on Me, believeth not on Me, but on Him that sent Me; and He that seeth Me seeth Him that sent Me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on Me should not abide in darkness; and if any man hear My words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of Myself; but the Father which sent Me, He gave Me a Commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His Commandment is Life Everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.

Deuteronomy 18:15The Lord thy God shall raise up to thee a prophet of thy brethren, like me; him shall ye hear: 16according to all things which thou didst desire of the Lord thy God in Choreb in the day of the assembly, saying, We will not again hear the voice of the Lord thy God, and we will not any more see this great fire, and so we shall not die. 17And the Lord said to me, They have spoken rightly all that they have said to thee. 18 I will raise up to them a prophet of their brethren, like thee; and I will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them as I shall command Him. 19And whatever man shall not hearken to whatsoever words that prophet shall speak in My name, I will take vengeance on him.LXX

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What 'words' or commandments did Jesus speak to us?

Jesus was sent to the Jews only and not to the Gentiles.

There are a number of sets of commandments in the scripture.

So which commandments are relevant?