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fhansen replied, "So Scripture tells us that we must persevere, because of the very real possibility of our not persevering. Scripture tells us that we must remain in Him, for the same reason. So if we read further in Rom 8 we'll find:
"So then, brothers and sisters, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— for if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13."
"So Scripture tells us that we must persevere, because of the very real possibility of our not persevering. Scripture tells us that we must remain in Him, for the same reason."
I would agree that there are many scriptures revealing the necessity of a true believer's
persevering by faith in order to receive their heavenly inheritance. (John 15:6; Heb.12:14-15, 10:36; 1 Tim.4:16; and many more).
The scriptures also supply compelling evidence for the assertion that all genuine believers will persevere by means of God's keeping or preserving power. (1 Peter 1:3-6; Phil.1:6; John 6:37-40; 2 Tim.1:12; and many more).
So, what are we to do with these dual truth statements? Simply accept both of them! Why would any person decide to reject either one of these clear-cut, scriptural truth claims? I believe it is a huge mistake to deny either of these statements; it is the equivalent of setting scripture against scripture, rather than reconciling them. It is not those who hold to the doctrine of the preservation of the saints who are unwilling to accept both truths, it is those who believe that believe a person cannot have assurance of their heavenly inheritance (i.e.- those who believe that some of the elect will forfeit their eternal salvation). This scenario should not be viewed as an "either/or", but rather "both/and."
This is not to say that there will never be an element of mystery involved. Fundamentally, we simply do not know all of the answers concerning the dynamic relationship between Divine grace/sovereignty and human freedom. On the other hand, this does not mean that we free to reject or deny those elements that God has decided to clearly reveal in His Word.
Also, this is not to say that the believer's cooperation is not part of this equation. That is what is clearly by implied in Calvinism's "T.U.L.I.P." (Exhaustive Divine Determinism). This is not the perspective held by those who hold to the preservation of the saints position such as myself. God's grace provided at the cross is sufficient for all who receive that free gift of eternal life through faith. To those who freely make that decision, the full benefits of the atonement become efficient (i.e. - realized and actualized).
This is to say, a person's cooperation, although indispensable, is never meritorious. The
only ground for any person's acceptance before God is the placing of their faith in the substitutionary work of Christ :
2 Corinthians 5:21,"For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
Our faith in this precious promise ("The Great Exchange") is not the ground for our justification, it is simply the indispensable means or channel by which it is obtained ("lest any man shall boast" - Eph.2:9). In other words, we are not to have "faith in our faith", but rather in the object of what we have placed our trust in - Jesus Christ and His substitutional atoning work on our behalf.
"So if we read further in Rom 8 we'll find:
"So then, brothers and sisters, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— for if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13."
In order to properly understand this passage, we must carefully study through the entire context in which it is situated - Romans 8. It appears to me that the context will clearly bear out the reality of the principles asserted by "The Molinist can/won't model of perseverance."[refer to posts #1 & #42 for further clarity].
It is contradictory to say “You can lose your salvation, but you can't." It is not contradictory to say “You can lose your salvation, but you won't." The former statement makes two mutually exclusive modal statements, while the latter makes a modal statement followed by a de facto statement".
We need to be careful not to conflate modality with actuality. Can a Christian fall away? That is a modal question, a question of what can or cannot happen. Will the elect fall away? That is a de facto question, what will or will not happen. Yes, losing your salvation is possible. No, it won’t actually happen......
Just because something is possible doesn't mean that it will happen.
Being trampled by a herd of elephants is something that could happen to me in my lifetime. That does not mean that it will, in fact, happen to me. And should I never actually get trampled by a herd of elephants during my lifetime, that fact in no way negates the possibility that I could have done otherwise (it was certainly within my ability or capacity to have done so).
Therefore, we must keep the two questions distinct in our mind.
(1) Can a true believer fall away?
(2) Will a true believer fall away?
We can take these questions to the biblical text and see if they are answered differently. I contend that they are.
(1) Modal Statements on Eternal Security (what can happen/possibilities)
(2) De Facto Statements about Eternal Security (what will happen/actualities)
(1) Modal Statement:
Rom.8:13(a), ""So then, brothers and sisters, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— for if you live according to the flesh, you will die;"
[note: it appears that the death spoken of here, "you will die" is indeed a reference to the eternal destruction of the soul, as opposed to physical death.]
(2) De Facto Statement:
Rom.8:37-39,"Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
The entire chapter is permeated through and through with evidence supporting the Defacto Statement made by the Apostle Paul.
Rom.8:9,"But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His."
So, "if you live according to the flesh, you will die." However, we are plainly told in verse 9 that all who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit are not in the flesh. And clearly, all those who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit are genuine believers. Paul is making a clean delineation between two groups; those who have been regenerated, and those who have not.
Therefore at this juncture we are faced with a crucial question, "How can a genuine believer "live according to the flesh" when they are simply "not in the flesh"?
Perhaps the difficulty and confusion among many emanates from misunderstanding what it means to "live according to the flesh."
1 John 3:6:,"Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him."
"Whoever abides in Him does not sin" - all who are born again will not sin habitually. the very act of sinning is against their habitual inclination and purpose of their souls.
"Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him." - all who have are not genuine believers, those who have never been regenerated by the eternal life-giving Holy Spirit
do in fact sin habitually. The habitual inclination of their soul is to live according to the flesh.... "Because the carnal mind is emnity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be" (Rom.8:7)....therefore:
Rom.8:5,"For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit."
Those who are genuine believers will set their minds on the things of the Spirit, but those who have never been regenerated by the Holy Spirit will set their hearts and minds on the things of the flesh, they are incapable of doing otherwise (while they choose to remain in that state). They were never born again, as seen in the following verses:
Matt.7:21-23,“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘(I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
1 John 3:9,"Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."
Here we discover the main reason why true believers will ultimately persevere and receive their heavenly inheritance.
I agree with Albert Barnes comments on this glorious promise of God:
" He who is born again will not sin finally, or will not fall away. "His seed remaineth in him," 1 John 3:9. See the notes at that verse. There is a principle of grace by which he will ultimately be restrained and recovered. This, it seems to me, is fairly implied in the language used by John; for if a person might be a Christian, and yet wholly fall away and perish, how could it be said with any truth that such a man "sinneth not;" how that "he doth not commit sin;" how that "his seed remaineth in him, and he cannot sin?" Just the contrary would be true if this were so.
Whosoever sinneth - That is, as explained above, habitually, deliberately, characteristically, and finally. - Doddridge. "Who habitually and avowedly sinneth."...
"For his seed remaineth in him - There is much obscurity in this expression, though the general sense is clear, which is, that there is something abiding in the heart of the true Christian which the apostle here calls "seed," which will prevent his sinning. The word "his" in this phrase, "his seed," may refer either to the individual himself - in the sense that this can now be properly called "his," inasmuch as it is a part of himself, or a principle abiding in him; or it may refer to God - in the sense that what is here called "seed" is "his," that is, he has implanted it, or it is a germ of divine origin. Robinson (Lex.) understands it in the latter sense, and so also do Macknight, Doddridge, Lucke, and others, and this is probably the true interpretation. The word "seed" (σπέρμα sperma) means properly seed sown, as of grain, plants, trees; then anything that resembles it, anything which germinates, or which springs up, or is produced.
It is applied in the New Testament to the word of God, or the gospel, as that which produces effects in the heart and life similar to what seed that is sown does. Compare Matthew 13:26, Matthew 13:37-38. Augustin, Clemens, (Alex.,) Grotius, Rosenmuller, Benson, and Bloomfield, suppose that this is the signification of the word here. The proper idea, according to this, is that the seed referred to is truth, which God has implanted or sown in the heart, from which it may be expected that the fruits of righteousness will grow. But that which abides in the heart of a Christian is not the naked word of God; the mere gospel, or mere truth; it is rather that word as made vital and efficacious by the influence of his Spirit; the germ of the divine life; the principles of true piety in the soul. Compare the words of Virgil: Igneus est illi vigor et coelestis origo semini. The exact idea here, as it seems to me, is not that the "seed" refers to "the word of God," as Augustin and others suppose, or to "the Spirit of God," but to the germ of piety which has been produced in the heart "by" the word and Spirit of God, and which may be regarded as having been implanted there by God himself, and which may be expected to produce holiness in the life. There is, probably, as Lucke supposes, an allusion in the word to the fact that we are begotten (Ὁ γεγεννημένος Ho gegennēmenos of God. The word "remaineth" - μένει menei, compare the notes at 1 John 3:6 - is a favorite expression of John. The expression here used by John, thus explained, would seem to imply two things:
(1) that the germ or seed of religion implanted in the soul abides there as a constant, vital principle, so that he who is born of God cannot become habitually a sinner; and,
(2) that it will so continue to live there that he will not fall away and perish. The idea is clearly that the germ or principle of piety so permanently abides in the soul, that he who is renewed never can become again characteristically a sinner.
And he cannot sin - Not merely he will not, but he cannot; that is, in the sense referred to. This cannot mean that one who is renewed has not physical ability to do wrong, for every moral agent has; nor can it mean that no one who is a true Christian never does, in fact, do wrong in thought, word, or deed, for no one could seriously maintain that: but it must mean that there is somehow a certainty as absolute "as if" it were physically impossible, that those who are born of God will not be characteristically and habitually sinners; that they will not sin in such a sense as to lose all true religion and be numbered with transgressors; that they will not fall away and perish. Unless this passage teaches that no one who is renewed ever can sin in any sense; or that everyone who becomes a Christian is, and must be, absolutely and always perfect, no words could more clearly prove that true Christians will never fall from grace and perish. How can what the apostle here says be true, if a real Christian can fall away and become again a sinner?
Because he is born of God - Or begotten of God. God has given him, by the new birth, real, spiritual life, and that life can never become extinct."
"And he cannot sin - Not merely he will not, but he cannot; that is, in the sense referred to. This cannot mean that one who is renewed has not physical ability to do wrong, for every moral agent has; nor can it mean that no one who is a true Christian never does, in fact, do wrong in thought, word, or deed, for no one could seriously maintain that: but it must mean that there is somehow a certainty as absolute "as if" it were physically impossible, that those who are born of God will not be characteristically and habitually sinners; that they will not sin in such a sense as to lose all true religion and be numbered with transgressors; that they will not fall away and perish."
Albert Barnes (although not a professed advocate of Molinism) holds precisely to the Molinistic principles that I have been attempting to demonstrate here (see above paragraph). They are in fact, inescapable truths that are woven throughout the totality of scripture.
Rejoice, those of you who have truly had the experience of new birth... you have received a life that can never become extinct!!!
"So then, brothers and sisters, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— for if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13."
"So Scripture tells us that we must persevere, because of the very real possibility of our not persevering. Scripture tells us that we must remain in Him, for the same reason."
I would agree that there are many scriptures revealing the necessity of a true believer's
persevering by faith in order to receive their heavenly inheritance. (John 15:6; Heb.12:14-15, 10:36; 1 Tim.4:16; and many more).
The scriptures also supply compelling evidence for the assertion that all genuine believers will persevere by means of God's keeping or preserving power. (1 Peter 1:3-6; Phil.1:6; John 6:37-40; 2 Tim.1:12; and many more).
So, what are we to do with these dual truth statements? Simply accept both of them! Why would any person decide to reject either one of these clear-cut, scriptural truth claims? I believe it is a huge mistake to deny either of these statements; it is the equivalent of setting scripture against scripture, rather than reconciling them. It is not those who hold to the doctrine of the preservation of the saints who are unwilling to accept both truths, it is those who believe that believe a person cannot have assurance of their heavenly inheritance (i.e.- those who believe that some of the elect will forfeit their eternal salvation). This scenario should not be viewed as an "either/or", but rather "both/and."
This is not to say that there will never be an element of mystery involved. Fundamentally, we simply do not know all of the answers concerning the dynamic relationship between Divine grace/sovereignty and human freedom. On the other hand, this does not mean that we free to reject or deny those elements that God has decided to clearly reveal in His Word.
Also, this is not to say that the believer's cooperation is not part of this equation. That is what is clearly by implied in Calvinism's "T.U.L.I.P." (Exhaustive Divine Determinism). This is not the perspective held by those who hold to the preservation of the saints position such as myself. God's grace provided at the cross is sufficient for all who receive that free gift of eternal life through faith. To those who freely make that decision, the full benefits of the atonement become efficient (i.e. - realized and actualized).
This is to say, a person's cooperation, although indispensable, is never meritorious. The
only ground for any person's acceptance before God is the placing of their faith in the substitutionary work of Christ :
2 Corinthians 5:21,"For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
Our faith in this precious promise ("The Great Exchange") is not the ground for our justification, it is simply the indispensable means or channel by which it is obtained ("lest any man shall boast" - Eph.2:9). In other words, we are not to have "faith in our faith", but rather in the object of what we have placed our trust in - Jesus Christ and His substitutional atoning work on our behalf.
"So if we read further in Rom 8 we'll find:
"So then, brothers and sisters, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— for if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13."
In order to properly understand this passage, we must carefully study through the entire context in which it is situated - Romans 8. It appears to me that the context will clearly bear out the reality of the principles asserted by "The Molinist can/won't model of perseverance."[refer to posts #1 & #42 for further clarity].
It is contradictory to say “You can lose your salvation, but you can't." It is not contradictory to say “You can lose your salvation, but you won't." The former statement makes two mutually exclusive modal statements, while the latter makes a modal statement followed by a de facto statement".
We need to be careful not to conflate modality with actuality. Can a Christian fall away? That is a modal question, a question of what can or cannot happen. Will the elect fall away? That is a de facto question, what will or will not happen. Yes, losing your salvation is possible. No, it won’t actually happen......
Just because something is possible doesn't mean that it will happen.
Being trampled by a herd of elephants is something that could happen to me in my lifetime. That does not mean that it will, in fact, happen to me. And should I never actually get trampled by a herd of elephants during my lifetime, that fact in no way negates the possibility that I could have done otherwise (it was certainly within my ability or capacity to have done so).
Therefore, we must keep the two questions distinct in our mind.
(1) Can a true believer fall away?
(2) Will a true believer fall away?
We can take these questions to the biblical text and see if they are answered differently. I contend that they are.
(1) Modal Statements on Eternal Security (what can happen/possibilities)
(2) De Facto Statements about Eternal Security (what will happen/actualities)
(1) Modal Statement:
Rom.8:13(a), ""So then, brothers and sisters, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— for if you live according to the flesh, you will die;"
[note: it appears that the death spoken of here, "you will die" is indeed a reference to the eternal destruction of the soul, as opposed to physical death.]
(2) De Facto Statement:
Rom.8:37-39,"Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
The entire chapter is permeated through and through with evidence supporting the Defacto Statement made by the Apostle Paul.
Rom.8:9,"But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His."
So, "if you live according to the flesh, you will die." However, we are plainly told in verse 9 that all who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit are not in the flesh. And clearly, all those who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit are genuine believers. Paul is making a clean delineation between two groups; those who have been regenerated, and those who have not.
Therefore at this juncture we are faced with a crucial question, "How can a genuine believer "live according to the flesh" when they are simply "not in the flesh"?
Perhaps the difficulty and confusion among many emanates from misunderstanding what it means to "live according to the flesh."
1 John 3:6:,"Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him."
"Whoever abides in Him does not sin" - all who are born again will not sin habitually. the very act of sinning is against their habitual inclination and purpose of their souls.
"Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him." - all who have are not genuine believers, those who have never been regenerated by the eternal life-giving Holy Spirit
do in fact sin habitually. The habitual inclination of their soul is to live according to the flesh.... "Because the carnal mind is emnity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be" (Rom.8:7)....therefore:
Rom.8:5,"For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit."
Those who are genuine believers will set their minds on the things of the Spirit, but those who have never been regenerated by the Holy Spirit will set their hearts and minds on the things of the flesh, they are incapable of doing otherwise (while they choose to remain in that state). They were never born again, as seen in the following verses:
Matt.7:21-23,“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘(I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
1 John 3:9,"Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."
Here we discover the main reason why true believers will ultimately persevere and receive their heavenly inheritance.
I agree with Albert Barnes comments on this glorious promise of God:
" He who is born again will not sin finally, or will not fall away. "His seed remaineth in him," 1 John 3:9. See the notes at that verse. There is a principle of grace by which he will ultimately be restrained and recovered. This, it seems to me, is fairly implied in the language used by John; for if a person might be a Christian, and yet wholly fall away and perish, how could it be said with any truth that such a man "sinneth not;" how that "he doth not commit sin;" how that "his seed remaineth in him, and he cannot sin?" Just the contrary would be true if this were so.
Whosoever sinneth - That is, as explained above, habitually, deliberately, characteristically, and finally. - Doddridge. "Who habitually and avowedly sinneth."...
"For his seed remaineth in him - There is much obscurity in this expression, though the general sense is clear, which is, that there is something abiding in the heart of the true Christian which the apostle here calls "seed," which will prevent his sinning. The word "his" in this phrase, "his seed," may refer either to the individual himself - in the sense that this can now be properly called "his," inasmuch as it is a part of himself, or a principle abiding in him; or it may refer to God - in the sense that what is here called "seed" is "his," that is, he has implanted it, or it is a germ of divine origin. Robinson (Lex.) understands it in the latter sense, and so also do Macknight, Doddridge, Lucke, and others, and this is probably the true interpretation. The word "seed" (σπέρμα sperma) means properly seed sown, as of grain, plants, trees; then anything that resembles it, anything which germinates, or which springs up, or is produced.
It is applied in the New Testament to the word of God, or the gospel, as that which produces effects in the heart and life similar to what seed that is sown does. Compare Matthew 13:26, Matthew 13:37-38. Augustin, Clemens, (Alex.,) Grotius, Rosenmuller, Benson, and Bloomfield, suppose that this is the signification of the word here. The proper idea, according to this, is that the seed referred to is truth, which God has implanted or sown in the heart, from which it may be expected that the fruits of righteousness will grow. But that which abides in the heart of a Christian is not the naked word of God; the mere gospel, or mere truth; it is rather that word as made vital and efficacious by the influence of his Spirit; the germ of the divine life; the principles of true piety in the soul. Compare the words of Virgil: Igneus est illi vigor et coelestis origo semini. The exact idea here, as it seems to me, is not that the "seed" refers to "the word of God," as Augustin and others suppose, or to "the Spirit of God," but to the germ of piety which has been produced in the heart "by" the word and Spirit of God, and which may be regarded as having been implanted there by God himself, and which may be expected to produce holiness in the life. There is, probably, as Lucke supposes, an allusion in the word to the fact that we are begotten (Ὁ γεγεννημένος Ho gegennēmenos of God. The word "remaineth" - μένει menei, compare the notes at 1 John 3:6 - is a favorite expression of John. The expression here used by John, thus explained, would seem to imply two things:
(1) that the germ or seed of religion implanted in the soul abides there as a constant, vital principle, so that he who is born of God cannot become habitually a sinner; and,
(2) that it will so continue to live there that he will not fall away and perish. The idea is clearly that the germ or principle of piety so permanently abides in the soul, that he who is renewed never can become again characteristically a sinner.
And he cannot sin - Not merely he will not, but he cannot; that is, in the sense referred to. This cannot mean that one who is renewed has not physical ability to do wrong, for every moral agent has; nor can it mean that no one who is a true Christian never does, in fact, do wrong in thought, word, or deed, for no one could seriously maintain that: but it must mean that there is somehow a certainty as absolute "as if" it were physically impossible, that those who are born of God will not be characteristically and habitually sinners; that they will not sin in such a sense as to lose all true religion and be numbered with transgressors; that they will not fall away and perish. Unless this passage teaches that no one who is renewed ever can sin in any sense; or that everyone who becomes a Christian is, and must be, absolutely and always perfect, no words could more clearly prove that true Christians will never fall from grace and perish. How can what the apostle here says be true, if a real Christian can fall away and become again a sinner?
Because he is born of God - Or begotten of God. God has given him, by the new birth, real, spiritual life, and that life can never become extinct."
"And he cannot sin - Not merely he will not, but he cannot; that is, in the sense referred to. This cannot mean that one who is renewed has not physical ability to do wrong, for every moral agent has; nor can it mean that no one who is a true Christian never does, in fact, do wrong in thought, word, or deed, for no one could seriously maintain that: but it must mean that there is somehow a certainty as absolute "as if" it were physically impossible, that those who are born of God will not be characteristically and habitually sinners; that they will not sin in such a sense as to lose all true religion and be numbered with transgressors; that they will not fall away and perish."
Albert Barnes (although not a professed advocate of Molinism) holds precisely to the Molinistic principles that I have been attempting to demonstrate here (see above paragraph). They are in fact, inescapable truths that are woven throughout the totality of scripture.
Rejoice, those of you who have truly had the experience of new birth... you have received a life that can never become extinct!!!
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