The EASY part of the Sabbath topic - where BOTH Sides find agreement

BobRyan · Oct 3, 2021

Christ informs us that "the Sabbath was made for MANKIND" Mark 2:27 not just that "MANKIND shall not live by bread alone" Matt 4.

Almost all Bible scholars admit to these easy Bible facts as follows.

The basic Bible teaching that all TEN of the TEN Commandments (including the Sabbath commandment) are
1. included in the moral law of God
2. written on the heart under the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-34
3. applicable to all mankind

- IS not ONLY the view of Bible Sabbath keeping Christians and the theologians that affirm them

-- it is ALSO the view of Bible scholarship in almost ALL Christian denomination on BOTH sides of the otherwise deeply divided Sabbath topic..

So then for a few examples:

D.L. Moody
C.H. Spurgeon
R.C. Sproul
Catholic Catechism
"Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19
"Westminster Confession of Faith" section 19
and many many more.

The area where they differ is this - "can the Commandments be edited in some way" ... some say yes and others no.

The Catholic church says that the "binding obligation" of the Sabbath commandment is now met by attending mass on week-day-1 instead of the seventh day. (as one small example of such an edit/change).

But they all agree on this -

1. The Sabbath is STILL in the TEN Commandments
2. The TEN are in the moral law of God written on the heart
3. The TEN apply to all mankind and define what sin is
4. The Sabbath as you find it in the Bible in the OT is the 7th day - Saturday
5. Every reference to a "Sabbath" religious meeting in the NT - is on Saturday the Bible Sabbath.

Those things get a lot of "dispute attention" in certain forums like this but among Bible scholars in almost all denominations on both sides of the Sabbath topic - those 5 points are not at all disputed.

=========================

Now let me ask you a question - reading this post- can you now see why this topic gets such a high level of Bible Sabbath keeping Christians interest ( many of whom used to observe week-day-1 but now observe the seventh day)??

BobRyan · Oct 3, 2021

When I say "almost all" I don't mean that nobody has a one-off view on this topic

But these obvious easy Bible statements are not "one off views"...

BobRyan said:
If you accept that Jesus is God - then
1. Jesus is the one sanctifying His own Sabbath in Gen 2:1-3
2 Jesus is the one saying "keep the Commandments" in Matt 19
3. Jesus is the one speaking His Ten Commandments at Sinai (Heb 8:6-12)
4. Jesus is the one saying that the Sabbath was "made for mankind" Mark 2:27
5. Jesus is the one claiming that "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall aLL mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23 - for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth
6. Jesus is the one saying "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15
7. Jesus is the one telling John to write "This IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:3
8. Jesus is the one telling James to write "to break one of the Commandments is to break them all" James 2
9. Jesus is the one telling John to write "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
10 Jesus is the one telling Paul to write the point that the TEN apply since they are that law of God where "'honor your father and mother' is the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

BobRyan · Oct 3, 2021

Let's look at the "Baptist Confession of Faith" Section 19 as an example

The link to my post on that is here in this forum
Mar 2, 2021 #4

Notice that there is agreement even to the point of admitting that all TEN were in Eden and are written on the heart under the New Covenant.

Christ is affirmed in his statement "the Sabbath was made for MANKIND" Mark 2:27

================== for the sake of clarity =============

God's Word says "the seventh day IS the Sabbath" Ex 20:10
God's Word says "tomorrow IS the Sabbath" Ex 16
God's Word says that for 40 years no manna fell on that exact day of the week - the 7th day in Ex 16.
God's Word says that the "seventh day was sanctified" Gen 2:1-3 at creation week Ex 20:11.

This is not even disputed among Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sabbath topic in almost all denominations.

Bible Sabbath keeping Christians argue that the Bible is correct.

Stating that "the Bible is correct" - is not forbidden in the Bible. All Bible scholars agree with that point as well. (I may have to add that to my list for clarity)

====================

In Matt 5 it is the letter of the Law that is quoted from by Christ ...
In Matt 19 it is the Letter of the Law that is quote from by Christ
In Mark 7:6-13 it is the Letter of the Law that is quoted from by Christ Himself
In Romans 13 is the the Letter of the Law that is quoted from by Paul just as Christ did in Matt 19
in Eph 6:2 it is the Letter of the Law that is quoted from by Paul.
in James 2- it is the Letter of the Law that is quoted from by James.

Christ's point in Matt 5 is that the spirit of the law EXPANDS the Letter's requirements it does not shrink or delete it

Hammster · Oct 3, 2021

BobRyan said:
The basic Bible teaching that all TEN of the TEN Commandments (including the Sabbath commandment) are
1. included in the moral law of God
2. written on the heart under the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-34
3. applicable to all mankind

- IS not ONLY the view of Bible Sabbath keeping Christians and the theologians that affirm them

-- it is ALSO the view of Bible scholarship in almost ALL Christian denomination on BOTH sides of the otherwise deeply divided Sabbath topic..

So then for a few examples:

D.L. Moody
C.H. Spurgeon
R.C. Sproul
Catholic Catechism
"Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19
"Westminster Confession of Faith" section 19
and many many more.

The area where they differ is this - "can the Commandments be edited in some way" ... some say yes and others no.

The Catholic church says that the "binding obligation" of the Sabbath commandment is now met by attending mass on week-day-1 instead of the seventh day. (as one small example of such an edit/change).

But they all agree on this -

1. The Sabbath is STILL in the TEN Commandments
2. The TEN are in the moral law of God written on the heart
3. The TEN apply to all mankind and define what sin is
4. The Sabbath as you find it in the Bible in the OT is the 7th day - Saturday
5. Every reference to a "Sabbath" religious meeting in the NT - is on Saturday the Bible Sabbath.

Those things get a lot of "dispute attention" in certain forums like this but among Bible scholars in almost all denominations on both sides of the Sabbath topic - those 5 points are not at all disputed.

=========================

Now let me ask you a question - reading this post- can you now see why this topic gets such a high level of Bible Sabbath keeping Christians many of whom used to observe wee-day-1 but now observe the seventh day??

I think the issue comes from the fact that one group has writings that say that you aren’t saved if you don’t keep the Sabbath in the way they think it should be kept, but won’t overtly admit it. They dance around it, and try to shift the burden of proof to the other side, but won’t come out and say directly that it’s a salvation issue. So real dialogue can’t happen.

Abaxvahl · Oct 3, 2021

BobRyan said:
Now let me ask you a question - reading this post- can you now see why this topic gets such a high level of Bible Sabbath keeping Christians interest ( many of whom used to observe week-day-1 but now observe the seventh day)??

Do you mean high level of attention? If so I really do not see why it gets so much attention. This is an issue that is extremely low on the totem-pole of important Christian theology to me, and is not a matter I'd ever consider when joining one Church or the other (for all I have ever considered agree the Sabbath is to be kept, it is only a disagreement as to how).

BobRyan · Oct 3, 2021

Abaxvahl said:
Do you mean high level of attention?

Yes - I corrected my OP to clarify that it is a high level of interest/attention for Bible Sabbath keeping Christians.

Abaxvahl said:
If so I really do not see why it gets so much attention.

1. The SDA denomination is one of the many many Bible Sabbath keeping Christian groups - and Christianity Today stated that it is the 5th largest Christian denomination in the world in Feb 2015 as well as the fastest growing. It has a very high level of interest in this topic as do many of the other bible Sabbath keeping groups.

2. Your own Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post-Vatican II titled "The Faith Explained" has a few paragraphs detailing exactly why this topic should concern ALL Bible scholars that have any notion at all that "Sola scriptura testing matters"

Abaxvahl said:
This is an issue that is extremely low on the totem-pole of important Christian theology to me, and is not a matter I'd ever consider when joining one Church or the other (for all I have ever considered agree the Sabbath is to be kept, it is only a disagreement as to how).

Well then I will provide the text from your own Commentary on the Catechism and the Sabbath.

==========================

“The Faith Explained” by Leo J. Trese
The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II
1965 -- first published 1959 (All later additions also have this section as quoted)

(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

"The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

“nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholics who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church”

==================

So if one is Catholic they may look at that and say "well that is just fine and also makes a good point for our POV" - but for non-Catholics and especially Bible Sabbath keeping Christians observing the actual seventh day -- it would be a topic of "high interest".

At the "very least" we should clearly see why that sort of idea is of high interest to Bible Sabbath keeping Christians who affirm "the seventh day is THE Sabbath of YHWH (the LORD)" Ex 20:10

BobRyan · Oct 3, 2021

Hammster said:
I think the issue comes from the fact that one group has writings that say that you aren’t saved

It is not logical to claim that all Bible Sabbath keeping groups only have the topic of the Sabbath as high interest because of what just one Bible Sabbath keeping group has available for detractors to take as an out-of-context-quote.

So then no such thing since all Bible Sabbath keeping groups are not "one group" and since the facts listed in the OP say nothing about "who is saved" and since even that one group has very clear texts saying there are saved Christian in all churches.

Context matters because Details matter - even when one views them as "inconvenient".

Abaxvahl · Oct 3, 2021

BobRyan said:
Yes - I corrected my OP to clarify that it is a high level of interest/attention for Bible Sabbath keeping Christians.

1. The SDA denomination is one of the many many Bible Sabbath keeping Christian groups - and Christianity Today stated that it is the 5th largest Christian denomination in the world in Feb 2015 as well as the fastest growing. It has a very high level of interest in this topic as do many of the other bible Sabbath keeping groups.

2. Your own Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post-Vatican II titled "The Faith Explained" has a few paragraphs detailing exactly why this topic should concern ALL Bible scholars that have any notion at all that "Sola scriptura testing matters"

Well then I will provide the text from your own Commentary on the Catechism and the Sabbath.

==========================

“The Faith Explained” by Leo J. Trese
The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II
1965 -- first published 1959 (All later additions also have this section as quoted)

(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

"The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

“nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholics who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church”

==================

So if one is Catholic they may look at that and say "well that is just fine and also makes a good point for our POV" - but for non-Catholics and especially Bible Sabbath keeping Christians observing the actual seventh day -- it would be a topic of "high interest".

At the "very least" we should clearly see why that sort of idea is of high interest to Bible Sabbath keeping Christians who affirm "the seventh day is THE Sabbath of YHWH (the LORD)" Ex 20:10

I would disagree with this quote. The Sabbath day isn't changed and is observed in the Church, and the Lord's Day, the Resurrection Day, the First Day (the cornerstone day from which all else flows as in Genesis 1) is Sunday. There is a fulfillment but there is not a change of days.

A_Thinker · Oct 3, 2021

BobRyan said:
1. The SDA denomination is one of the many many Bible Sabbath keeping Christian groups - and Christianity Today stated that it is the 5th largest Christian denomination in the world in Feb 2015 as well as the fastest growing. It has a very high level of interest in this topic as do many of the other bible Sabbath keeping groups.

Yes ... unfortunately I hear more from you about the seventh day Sabbath ... than I do about Jesus ...

BobRyan · Oct 3, 2021

Abaxvahl said:
I would disagree with this quote. The Sabbath day isn't changed and is observed in the Church, and the Lord's Day, the Resurrection Day, the First Day (the cornerstone day from which all else flows as in Genesis 1) is Sunday. There is a fulfillment but there is not a change of days.

ok so you differ with your own church's commentary on the catechism - still it would be of high interest to Bible Sabbath keeping Christians to notice what your own published commentary says on the subject rather than what one person on CF might post. I think you would agree with this. Not to mention what your own Catechism says and what the encyclical "Dies Domini" says admitting to many of the same details of the TEN given for all mankind.

And as noted in my prior posts - this "CHANGE" detail is admitted to by Bible scholars in almost all Christian denominations - and logically that fact alone would generate a lot of "interest" among Bible Sabbath keeping groups.

My question was whether it is obvious that these details would be of high interest to Bible Sabbath keeping groups. Your own statement states you are not someone in those groups. So the fact that you have much less interest in this topic - is not at all out of line with the question about whether these details would most certainly be of high interest to Bible Sabbath keeping Christians.

BobRyan · Oct 3, 2021

A_Thinker said:
Yes ... unfortunately I hear more from you about the seventh day Sabbath ... than I do about Jesus ...

If you accept that Jesus is God - then
1. Jesus is the one sanctifying His own Sabbath in Gen 2:1-3
2 Jesus is the one saying "keep the Commandments" in Matt 19
3. Jesus is the one speaking His Ten Commandments at Sinai (Heb 8:6-12)
4. Jesus is the one saying that the Sabbath was "made for mankind" Mark 2:27
5. Jesus is the one claiming that "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall aLL mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23 - for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth
6. Jesus is the one saying "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15
7. Jesus is the one telling John to write "This IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:3
8. Jesus is the one telling James to write "to break one of the Commandments is to break them all" James 2
9. Jesus is the one telling John to write "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
10 Jesus is the one telling Paul to write the point that the TEN apply since they are that law of God where "'honor your father and mother' is the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

Abaxvahl · Oct 3, 2021

BobRyan said:
ok so you differ with your own church's commentary on the catechism - still it would be of high interest to Bible Sabbath keeping Christians to notice what your published commentary says on the subject rather than what one person on CF might post. I think you would agree with this.

And as noted in my prior posts - this "CHANGE" detail is admitted to by Bible scholars in almost all Christian denominations - and logically that fact alone would generate a lot of "interest" among Bible Sabbath keeping groups.

A Catechism is not necessarily the opinion of the whole Church, but is one Catechism among many. Different Catechisms may say different things, and different Catholics on some issues have different opinions. Not every Catholic book is even correct. That is not how the Church is run.

Hammster · Oct 3, 2021

BobRyan said:
It is not logical to claim that all Bible Sabbath keeping groups only have the topic of the Sabbath as high interest because of what just one Bible Sabbath keeping group has available for detractors to take as an out-of-context-quote.

So then no such thing since all Bible Sabbath keeping groups are not "one group" and since the facts listed in the OP say nothing about "who is saved" and since even that one group has very clear texts saying there are saved Christian in all churches.

Context matters because Details matter - even when one views them as "inconvenient".

I guess deconstructing what I say is also a way of avoiding all that I said.

Danthemailman · Oct 3, 2021

A_Thinker said:
Yes ... unfortunately I hear more from you about the seventh day Sabbath ... than I do about Jesus ...

And there is a reason for that. All I keep hearing is salvation by obeying the 10 commandments (with a heavy emphasis on the 4th commandment) which explains why you hear less about Jesus. This is really not about salvation through faith in Christ (Romans 3:24-28) but is about salvation through law keeping. (Galatians 2:16)

BobRyan · Oct 3, 2021

Abaxvahl said:
A Catechism is not necessarily the opinion of the whole Church, but is one Catechism among many. Different Catechisms may say different things, and different Catholics on some issues have different opinions. Not every Catholic book is even correct. That is not how the Church is run.

Let's say for the sake of argument there is such a thing as a well accepted version of the Catechism (with impramatur) that says
"The Sabbath as given in the Bible is the first day of the week" ...
or "the Sabbath is not the Lord's day"
or "the Sabbath commandment is not for Christians no matter what Dies Domini says to the contrary"
or "the Lord's day was never the 7th day of the week in the Bible"
or "there was never a change in the Sabbath Commandment making the first day of the week holy or set aside for holy use"
or "the Sabbath commandment obligation was never changed so that it is now fulfilled by attending Mass on week-day-1 " ....

It would be very interesting if people actually knew about such a catechism as a well accepted document by Catholic Christians today.

A_Thinker · Oct 3, 2021

BobRyan said:
If you accept that Jesus is God - then
1. Jesus is the one sanctifying His own Sabbath in Gen 2:1-3
2 Jesus is the one saying "keep the Commandments" in Matt 19
3. Jesus is the one speaking His Ten Commandments at Sinai (Heb 8:6-12)
4. Jesus is the one saying that the Sabbath was "made for mankind" Mark 2:27
5. Jesus is the one claiming that "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall aLL mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23 - for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth
6. Jesus is the one saying "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15
7. Jesus is the one telling John to write "This IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:3
8. Jesus is the one telling James to write "to break one of the Commandments is to break them all" James 2
9. Jesus is the one telling John to write "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
10 Jesus is the one telling Paul to write the point that the TEN apply since they are that law of God where "'honor your father and mother' is the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

This Jesus' main message to humankind ...

John 6

26 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the One he has sent.”
...

37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

P.S. Jesus allowed His disciples to glean from the fields on the seventh day Sabbath ...

Matthew 12

1 At that time Jesus went on the Sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat. 2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him; 4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests? 5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the Sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless? 6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.

7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the Sabbath day.

BobRyan · Oct 3, 2021

BobRyan said:
If you accept that Jesus is God - then
1. Jesus is the one sanctifying His own Sabbath in Gen 2:1-3
2 Jesus is the one saying "keep the Commandments" in Matt 19
3. Jesus is the one speaking His Ten Commandments at Sinai (Heb 8:6-12)
4. Jesus is the one saying that the Sabbath was "made for mankind" Mark 2:27
5. Jesus is the one claiming that "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall aLL mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23 - for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth
6. Jesus is the one saying "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15
7. Jesus is the one telling John to write "This IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:3
8. Jesus is the one telling James to write "to break one of the Commandments is to break them all" James 2
9. Jesus is the one telling John to write "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
10 Jesus is the one telling Paul to write the point that the TEN apply since they are that law of God where "'honor your father and mother' is the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

A_Thinker said:
This Jesus' main message to humankind ...

John 6
26 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”

In your view does Jesus present John 6 to cancel all His other statements on the Commandments?
Does John 6 say anything at all about Jesus wanting us not to keep His Commandments?
Is there a "main message of Jesus" that is intended to cancel NT scripture? OT scripture?

Under Jesus' New Covenant as stated in Jer 31:31-34 and again verbatim in Heb 8:6-12 He says that under the Gospel New Covenant the LAW known to Jeremiah and his readers is written on heart and mind.

BobRyan · Oct 3, 2021

Danthemailman said:
All I keep hearing is salvation by obeying the 10 commandments

But how "odd" then that you only 'quote you' when making such a claim

Rev 14:12 does say "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" --- but does that mean we should attack that scripture by bending it to say "the Saints are saved BY keeping the Commandments" in your POV???

That does not sound logical.

When someone says "the Bible teaches us not to take God's name in vain - in Exodus 20:7" it does not justify that false accusation "then you believe in salvation BY doing the works of not taking God's name in vain"

OldWiseGuy · Oct 3, 2021

Each commandment has a twofold fulfillment; legal and moral (spiritual). So it is with the Sabbath commandment. One can keep the law in the legal sense while at the same time violating the moral aspect by not filling full the true intent of the law. So the argument boils down to; after abstaining from normal work and other mundane activities for 24 hours, the legality of the command, what remains to be done?

Or, if the Sabbath "was made for man" what beneficial evidence should manifest by observing it?

BobRyan · Oct 3, 2021

OldWiseGuy said:
Each commandment has a twofold fulfillment; legal and moral (spiritual). So it is with the Sabbath commandment. One can keep the law in the legal sense while at the same time violating the moral aspect by not filling full the true intent of the law. So the argument boils down to; after abstaining from normal work and other mundane activities for 24 hours; the legality of the command; what remains to be done?

As Christ points out in Matt 5 - the legal part of the commandment cannot be broken by keeping the moral part of it. In fact 1 John 3:4 says the moral obligation is defined by the law "Sin IS transgression of the LAW". So then you are right to say that one can technically not work on the 7th day even if they are not saved ... but can they "keep it holy" while themselves not being holy as a born again saved Christian?

To keep something holy - one must first BE holy, sanctified, set apart by being the new Creation "created unto good works" Eph 2.

The is also true with "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 just as with "remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy" Ex 20:8

The EASY part of the Sabbath topic - where BOTH Sides find agreement

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