Annihilationism

Gregory Thompson · Sep 29, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
I am. Revelation fits. Hardly any of it even hints at not fitting, certainly no worse than James as far as that goes, and on closer inspection, it is doesn't even hint after all, at not fitting.

Seems strange that one so erudite as yourself would take it upon your own authority to recommend ignoring or discarding Revelation.

The point is, your subjective opinion is no different than anyone else's on the matter.

Mark Quayle · Sep 29, 2021

Michael Collum said:
The point is, your subjective opinion is no different than anyone else's on the matter.

So, subjective opinion trumps orthodoxy? Scripture is no longer an anchor and correction of personal thought?

Gregory Thompson · Sep 29, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
So, subjective opinion trumps orthodoxy? Scripture is no longer an anchor and correction of personal thought?

Until the 1800s the apocrypha were regarded as scripture, so sidestepping that is not going to work out for you with the above argument.

Clare73 · Sep 29, 2021

Michael Collum said:
Until the 1800s the apocrypha were regarded as scripture, so sidestepping that is not going to work out for you with the above argument.

When did Protestantism omit them?

hedrick · Sep 29, 2021

Clare73 said:
When did Protestantism omit them?

They’re not in the canon list in the Westminster Confession, nor Luther. However the Ltheran situation isn’t so clear, since there is no official canon, and printed a bibles typically included the DC books. Wikipedia says

“There is some evidence that the first decision to omit these books entirely from the Bible was made by Protestant laity rather than clergy. Bibles dating from shortly after the Reformation have been found whose tables of contents included the entire Roman Catholic canon, but which did not actually contain the disputed books, leading some historians to think that the workers at the printing presses took it upon themselves to omit them. However, Anglican and Lutheran Bibles usually still contained these books until the 20th century, while Calvinist Bibles did not.”

I don’t think it’s possible to give a date.

hedrick · Sep 29, 2021

Incidentally, Luther disputed Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation. Current Lutheran theory considers them and several other books disputed. In principle Lutherans don’t have an official canon, though recently Lutherans have tended to move in the direction of other Protestants, particularly in the more conservative churches. Roughly the same set of NT books were disputed in the early church, though eventually included in the canon. Wikipedia lists them as Epistle of James, the Epistle of Jude, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, the Book of Revelation.

While not disputing its status, Calvin didn’t comment on the Rev, and almost never quoted it.

Clare73 · Sep 29, 2021

hedrick said:
Incidentally, Luther disputed Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation. Current Lutheran theory considers them and several other books disputed. In principle Lutherans don’t have an official canon, though recently Lutherans have tended to move in the direction of other Protestants, particularly in the more conservative churches. Roughly the same set of NT books were disputed in the early church, though eventually included in the canon. Wikipedia lists them as Epistle of James, the Epistle of Jude, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, the Book of Revelation.

While not disputing its status, Calvin didn’t comment on the Rev, and almost never quoted it.

Thanks. . .most interesting.

Butch5 · Oct 1, 2021

9Rock9 said:
Annihilationism is the belief that rather than going to place of eternal torment, the wicked will be destroyed entirely, both in body and spirit. It is commonly promoted by the Seventh Day Adventist Church, and related denominations.

Most contemporary Christians believe that the wicked will go to hell and suffer for eternity.

What are your thoughts on annihilationism? Is it biblical?

Personally, I am kinda agnostic on the issue. I lean towards the traditional view of hell being a literal place of torment, largely just to be on the safe side, but I do see some compelling arguments for annihilationism.

The Bible clearly teaches annihilationism. The concept of eternal torment has it's roots in Greek philosophy. It's not taught in the Bible. It entered the church early on and has hung on ever since. It's a tool that kept people in line.

Abaxvahl · Oct 1, 2021

Butch5 said:
The Bible clearly teaches annihilationism. The concept of eternal torment has it's roots in Greek philosophy. It's not taught in the Bible. It entered the church early on and has hung on ever since. It's a tool that kept people in line.

How does it achieve keeping people in line? Annihilation is literally a worse fate if that's what you mean.

Butch5 · Oct 1, 2021

Abaxvahl said:
How does it achieve keeping people in line? Annihilation is literally a worse fate if that's what you mean.

Early on it was easy for some in the church to use the threat of eternal torment to keep the masses under control. The idea of eternal torment stems from the Greek philosophical idea that man has an immortal soul. This idea became incorporated into Christianity. The Bible says that the wicked will be cast into the Lake of Fire. Well, if man has an immortal soul that will never die, it has to be somewhere for eternity, thus eternal torment for the wicked. However, we Scripture shows us that man does not have an immortal soul.

Abaxvahl · Oct 1, 2021

Butch5 said:
Early on it was easy for some in the church to use the threat of eternal torment to keep the masses under control.

Easy for who? Who are these "some"? How does it keep people under control? Where is the record of these things and this effect? Controlled to do what?

Butch5 · Oct 1, 2021

Abaxvahl said:
Easy for who? Who are these "some"? How does it keep people under control? Where is the record of these things and this effect? Controlled to do what?

If you study church history you can see the evidence of it.

Abaxvahl · Oct 1, 2021

Butch5 said:
If you study church history you can see the evidence of it.

That's great, luckily I have been doing just that and so far I don't see it. What period do you think this was happening in, is there some book or record that convinced you in particular? Church history is exceedingly broad and there is a lot of contentious stuff in it, and little things you can overlook, so I probably missed it. Not to mention language barriers for a lot of it.

Butch5 · Oct 1, 2021

Abaxvahl said:
That's great, luckily I have been doing just that and so far I don't see it. What period do you think this was happening in, is there some book or record that convinced you in particular? Church history is exceedingly broad and there is a lot of contentious stuff in it, and little things you can overlook, so I probably missed it. Not to mention language barriers for a lot of it.

I don't recall a particular statement of the top of my head. It was more a general consensus. At the beginnings of the Catholic church many of the people were illiterate. The Bible was in a language that could not read by most people. Since the Bible wasn't really accessible to the masses, they had to rely on the church to teach them what it said. Fear of eternal torment surely would give one pause when considering civil disobedience.

I did a quick Google search and found this article. It contains some sources. I hope it helps

hedrick · Oct 1, 2021

Butch5 said:
The Bible clearly teaches annihilationism. The concept of eternal torment has it's roots in Greek philosophy. It's not taught in the Bible. It entered the church early on and has hung on ever since. It's a tool that kept people in line.

I agree that it’s not in the OT. But by the time of the NT things had changed. This was a general cultural thing affecting all religions, including Judaism. All developed the concept of punishment after death. There doesn’t seem to have been agreement, even within specific religious communities, exactly who ended up where. There was Jewish thought that everyone eventually stopped being punished, but many people thought there were some exceptions, and for some groups the exceptions grew. The idea that some people never made it out of hell was certainly around in Judaism.

I would claim that what makes Christianity distinct is the idea that in the end God will win, and all will be in Christ. You see this in both Paul and the Revelation. That implies either universalism or annihilation. The Revelation is clearly not universalist, and seems to point to annihilation. Jesus also seems hard to understand ad universalist. So I end up with annihilation. This is also consistent with many of the images used.

Der Alte · Oct 1, 2021

Butch5 said:
Early on it was easy for some in the church to use the threat of eternal torment to keep the masses under control. The idea of eternal torment stems from the Greek philosophical idea that man has an immortal soul. This idea became incorporated into Christianity. The Bible says that the wicked will be cast into the Lake of Fire. Well, if man has an immortal soul that will never die, it has to be somewhere for eternity, thus eternal torment for the wicked. However, we Scripture shows us that man does not have an immortal soul.

That is a common internet rumor some folks like to spread around but there is no, zero, none evidence to support it. On the other hand.
…..According to three Jewish sources; which to date have not been refuted, the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both שׁאול sheol and גי־הנם /gehinnom. translated as "hades" and "Gehenna" in the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
…..There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were differing beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);

[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposed bias of Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

When Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4

…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?

Butch5 · Oct 1, 2021

Der Alte said:
That is a common internet rumor some folks like to spread around but there is no, zero, none evidence to support it. On the other hand.
…..According to three Jewish sources; which to date have not been refuted, the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both שׁאול sheol and גי־הנם /gehinnom. translated as "hades" and "Gehenna" in the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
…..There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were differing beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposed bias of Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
When Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?

Everything you disagree with is a common internet rumor

Der Alte · Oct 1, 2021

Butch5 said:
Everything you disagree with is a common internet rumor

I don't know if you noticed but I posted considerable evidence in support of what I said. Your post, no evidence=unsupported rumors.

Der Alte · Oct 1, 2021

Butch5 said:
The Bible clearly teaches annihilationism. The concept of eternal torment has it's roots in Greek philosophy. It's not taught in the Bible. It entered the church early on and has hung on ever since. It's a tool that kept people in line.

Unsupported assumptions/presuppositions. If one wants the truth it is easily found with all of the resources available See e.g. my post [# 156]above.

Butch5 · Oct 1, 2021

Der Alte said:
I don't know if you noticed but I posted considerable evidence in support of what I said. Your post, no evidence=unsupported rumors.

I've refuted your argument more times than I can remember. I'm not wasting any more time. If you ever come to a place where you're willing to accept anything other than you incontrovertible sources and are willing to have a real discussion let me know.

Annihilationism

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.

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