Nero the beast poll

3 Resurrections said:

I'm sure you remember, parousia70, that Pilate THREE TIMES testified to the Jews that he had found no fault in Christ (Luke 23:22). He even sent Him to Herod, and even Herod could find no fault in Christ. This was a fulfillment of the examination process that the sacrificial lamb underwent before it was offered as the Passover sacrifice back under the Old Covenant.

We know that Christ's flogging was part of God's prophetic plan, and that "it pleased the Lord to bruise Him", and "with His stripes we are healed". It mattered not that the hatred of the Jewish leadership made them urge Pilate to have Christ's flesh shredded in the scourging He was given. Whatever damage happened to the body of Christ before His death was healed in His resurrected state when His body was glorified that resurrection day. It will be the same for us as believers. Whatever the ravages of time, illness, and corruption have done to work their damage on our body's forms, they will be changed and altered into a glorified, perfected condition in the resurrected state. Just like Christ's, because we are called "joint-heirs" with Christ.

Click to expand...

The exception that proves the rule?

Maybe I'm just dense, parousia70, but I can't tell where you are getting an "exception" in what I just wrote. Christ as our "Passover Lamb" was examined for being faultless, and was pronounced to be so - three times over - even by those who were giving Him the sentence of crucifixion. Christ as the sacrificial lamb WAS blemish-free. Then he was given into the hands of sinners and was scourged and put to death by God's determinate council and foreknowledge.

Three days and three nights later, He rose from the dead in a glorified, perfected body form that would never die again. "And being made perfect, He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec." (Hebrews 5:9). The blemish-free sacrificial Lamb whose flesh and blood were given to redeem God's children became the blemish-free high priest who "ever liveth to make intercession for us". And "Because He lives, we shall live also", in a body form just like that of the glorified, perfected, risen Lord.

3 Resurrections said:

Maybe I'm just dense, parousia70, but I can't tell where you are getting an "exception" in what I just wrote.

Click to expand...

I don’t think you’re dense.I just don’t believe you are correct about this topic, and I believe your own words betray your asserted point.

Christ as our "Passover Lamb" was examined for being faultless, and was pronounced to be so - three times over - even by those who were giving Him the sentence of crucifixion. Christ as the sacrificial lamb WAS blemish-free. Then he was given into the hands of sinners and was scourged and put to death by God's determinate council and foreknowledge.

Click to expand...

I agree

Three days and three nights later, He rose from the dead in a glorified, perfected body form that would never die again.

Click to expand...

I agree His risen body could not be put to death again, however, I don’t believe we have the scriptural evidence to proclaim the body that rose was not the self same body that hung on the cross. I believe scripture solidly points to the ascension as the moment Christ was glorified, and not a moment before.

"And being made perfect, He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec." (Hebrews 5:9). The blemish-free sacrificial Lamb whose flesh and blood were given to redeem God's children became the blemish-free high priest who "ever liveth to make intercession for us". And "Because He lives, we shall live also", in a body form just like that of the glorified, perfected, risen Lord.

Click to expand...

I agree with all of this as well, I just don’t believe scripture supports your claim that the Body that appeared from the tomb was glorified at any time before the ascension.

There is certainly no direct Scripture says “Christ appeared from the tomb in a glorified body” so you would only be able to reach such a conclusion by inference, and I get very suspicious any time an Inferential conclusion is presented as equivalent to “thus says the lord”.

You’ve already indicated you allow for vast wiggle room when it comes to your usage of “spotless snd unblemished” so I’m also dubious of any demands of perfection about any of Christ’s pre ascension attributes from you.

I know we’ve been through this at least once before and neither of us found the others arguments convincing.
I’m still Happy to look over any scripture you believe supports your claim.

Hi again Parousia70, This subject of the timing for Christ's glorification is a critical one that I agree needs full scripture support. Fortunately, it is there for us to read.

We can prove this was Christ's GLORIFIED immortal body the day He was risen from among the dead, even before His final ascension 40 days later, by comparing John 7:38-39 with John 20:19-22.

"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake He of the Spirit, which they that believe on Him should receive: FOR THE HOLY GHOST WAS NOT YET GIVEN; BECAUSE THAT JESUS WAS NOT YET GLORIFIED.)"

This verse shows us that the time when the Holy Ghost was first given had to be preceded in time by the existence of a glorified Christ. The Holy Ghost wasn't first given at Pentecost; it was first given on Christ's resurrection day, as John 20:19-22 proves to us.

"Then the same day at evening being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith to them, Peace be unto you. And when He had so said, He shewed unto them His hands and His side. Then were the disciples glad when they saw the Lord. Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me even so send I you. And when He had said this, He breathed on them and saith unto them receive ye the Holy Ghost."

Here is the Holy Ghost being given by the already glorified Christ - on the first day of the week. So, putting these two passages together, we can prove that the body of Christ that the disciples were seeing that first day of the week was the glorified Christ. A glorified body that could change forms at will, from a blemish-free form at the moment of His resurrection into one with recognizable wound holes later that day which would bolster the faith of the disciples.

Additionally, Christ indicated that He was already in a glorified body as He was walking with the two disciples on the road to Emmaus in Luke 24:25-26. 'Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into His glory?" He spoke of these sufferings and His glorification as an already-accomplished fact that needed to be proved to these disciples by the scriptures.

Additionally, 1 Peter 1:21 links together as a joint occurrence both Christ's rising from the dead and his glorification. "Through Him you believe in God, who raised him up from the dead and gave Him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God." Simultaneous events.

Additionally, John also testified that they had already seen Christ's glory. Specifically, John defined that particular glory as being a result of Christ's rising from the dead as the only begotten one of the Father at that point in time. "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father) full of grace and truth." We know from Paul's testimony in Acts 13:33 that this "begotten" status was achieved by Christ on the very day of His resurrection. So John said that the "glory" which they had seen was the kind given to Christ when He was "begotten" by the Father when He was raised from the dead.

As for the "wiggle room" you believe I am using to define a "spotless" and "blemish-free" condition, I can't see how you are getting that sense from what I wrote. The Lamb of God was inspected, (just like the Passover Lamb was supposed to be to make sure it was without blemish), and He was then pronounced to be "faultless", even by the ones crucifying Him. He met the criteria for being blemish-free as an offering. The sufferings and crucifixion He endured after that did nothing to change that original assessment of His acceptable status as a blemish-free offering.

In His resurrection, Christ's body form was "perfected" from the damage given to Himself as the Lamb of God, in order for Him to offer Himself "without spot to God" at His ascension that morning. In doing this, He met all the qualifications for being established as our deathless high priest, who "continueth ever" in that perfected, glorified human/divine body form.

3 Resurrections said:

Hi again Parousia70, This subject of the timing for Christ's glorification is a critical one that I agree needs full scripture support. Fortunately, it is there for us to read.

Click to expand...

I agree.
The New Testament is very clear concerning when Christ was glorified.
It was not before, but after his ascension.

We have a pre figure of that here:
Matthew 17:1-2 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; 2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light.

All agree this was a prefiguration of Jesus' Glorified form, yet it is wholly different from ANY eyewitness account of His post-crucifixion, pre-ascension resurrected Body.

It had yet to undergo "some" appreciable change prior to the ascension, that the Transfiguration pre figured.

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

John, an eyewitness to the resurrected flesh body of Jesus, here testifies infallibly that it had not been revealed to him what Jesus presently, in Heaven, looks like. This indicates plainly that some sort of appreciable change to His physical appearance happened at or after the ascension, otherwise, John would not have said so.

Later, John was brought to heaven and witnessed Jesus Looking like this:

Revelation 5:6
And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

So here again we have the apostle infallibly testifying that, In heaven, Jesus has taken the non-human form of a Lamb with 7 horns and 7 eyes.... Unquestionably different physical features than he had when He ascended.

Again, John himself, who witnessed His post resurrection, pre ascension Body first hand with His own eyes, Indicates that He had still NOT seen His Glorified Body:

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

At this point, after the Ascension, John is clear that He had NOT seen Jesus "as He is" presently, so, some sort of Appreciable Change to Jesus' body took place AFTER John last saw Him in the flesh.

I contend that "appreciable change" was the Glorification of His Body, The returning of His body back to the condition it was in before the foundation of the world, and it took place the moment the Cloud received Him out of their sight.

As to the timing of Christ's glorification, we have the following scriptures:

John 12.16. 'These things His disciples did not understand at the first; but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that these things were written of Him, and that they had done these things to Him.'

In the context of this verse Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the donkey and the people cheered. This, again, was only understood by them after his ascension and not during the 40 days.

John 17.24. ' "Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world." '

Here, Jesus expressly declared that the disciples would 'behold [His] glory' when they were with him where he was. This was not referring anytime on earth, but must be referring to after his ascension.

Jesus was NOT resurrected in His Glorified Body, He was resurrected in the Self same Body that hung on the cross and Had no different powers or attributes to it than He had before the Crucifixion (save the fact it could no longer be put to death)

Jesus was glorified after His ascension according to Acts 9:3-6 and Revelation 1:13-16 such that it took on a form like that of the Father and the heavenly host. In describing the appearance of God, Ezekiel 1:26-28 reads:

Above the vault over their heads was what looked like a throne of lapis lazuli, and high above on the throne was a figure like that of a man. I saw that from what appeared to be his waist up he looked like glowing metal, as if full of fire, and that from there down he looked like fire; and brilliant light surrounded him. Like the appearance of a rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the radiance around him. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord.

Jesus’ resurrection body after His ascension into heaven is described with similar radiance and glory according to Revelation 1:13-16:

[A]nd among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.”

This OBVIOUSLY is completely different from ANY eyewitness account of His post-resurrection PRE ASCENSION Body. Something clearly, undeniably, Changed at the ascension.

The facts of the case also demonstrate that it is not Christ’s body that was the subject of glorification.

The glory of Christ is received at his corination, after he returns to heaven, not before.

As you pointed out, On the road to Emmaus, the Lord said, “Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory? (Luke 24:26). This passage actually demonstrates the opposite if what you claim it does.
Namely, after Jesus is raised from the dead, in his post resurrection body, he has not yet entered into his glory.

If it is argued that this his body is a glorious body because it has been raised from the dead, I remind you of John 1:14 of which the apostles testify, “we beheld his glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.”

This text speaks of his earthly ministry. Though it is doubtful that it has any reference to his physical outward appearance. His political and social rank was inglorious, despised and the cause of rejection.

For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich. (2 Cor. 8:3 )

So, there is no more or less glory after than before.

It is clear that Christ gave up his glory with the Father to experience the humiliation of being made lowly in the likeness of men.

In the garden of Gethsemane, he prayed, “Father, Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You…And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.” (John 17:1, 5).

Paul, writing to Timothy says, And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in glory, (1 Timothy 3:16). Here again, we see that the scripture notes that Christ received glory at his ascension into heaven. See also Luke 24:51).

Peter affirms that the glory of Christ followed his suffering. “Searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when he testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.” (1 Peter 1:9).

He then states that God gave Christ glory after he was raised from the dead, not at the same time. ”Who through Him believe in God who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.” (1 Peter 1:21).

Once again, we see that Christ is crowned with glory and honor, at the time He is Crowned. “But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for every one.” (Hebrews 2:9)

Jesus' Post resurrection/pre ascension body was not His glorified Body that He possesses today. It was the same Body that Hung on the Cross. The Same Body that could walk on water and pass through hostile crowds untouched. It was already quite different in capabilities and attributes from our bodies, glorious even before the crucifixion (John 1:14). Nothing about it was changed in the resurrection.
It was not until Acts 1:9 at the earliest that Christ's Body was glorified.
And it is unto THAT Body that ours will be fashioned as, not the pre glorified, pre ascension, wound riddled Flesh and Bone Body that appeared to many during the 40 days, solely for evidentiary purposes.

You are assuming there was only one ascension in Acts 1:9, when there were two. The first ascension was in John 20:17, directly after Christ told Mary that He was going to ascend to the Father, but she was to go and tell the disciples that He was ascending to God in heaven. Touching Him was forbidden at that point, since Christ needed to retain his resurrected, spotless purity in order to ascend to the Father in that ritually-clean condition, to be inaugurated as our high priest in heaven that morning. It was then that He "offered Himself without spot to God" (no wound holes or blemishes), and both He and His blood offering were accepted.

Yet only a short time later that same morning, another group of women met Christ, and this time were allowed to hold Christ by the feet. This time their touch was not forbidden, because Christ's blood sacrifice in heaven had just been accepted by God, and His high priesthood was then established. Any touching of the Savior's perfected form on earth after that was allowable, after He had left His blood sprinkled on heaven's mercy seat - the covering of imputed righteousness for all the saints' faults and imperfections. God could look on the disciples as vicariously holy, and their touch would not be considered something unclean.

parousia70 said:

It was not until Acts 1:9 at the earliest that Christ's Body was glorified.

Click to expand...

This is not true, according to the two texts I gave above. Christ would be glorified BEFORE the Holy Spirit was given, according to John 7:39. And that Holy Spirit was breathed into the disciples that evening of the first day of the week (John 20:22), meaning Christ had already been glorified before then.

parousia70 said:

Nothing about it was changed in the resurrection.

Click to expand...

This is not true either. There was most definitely a change, in that Christ's body would never be able to die again after His resurrection. "Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over Him" (Romans 6:9). Raised from the dead by the Spirit's power, this changes the condition of a body form to an incorruptible state. And Christ absolutely retained His human form after that second Acts 1:9 ascension, or else you and I would have no high priest mediator that can represent us before the Father.