O.B.N.C.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 30, 2021

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
yes, there are many passages on baptism. Do you understand the difference between water and Spirit baptism? Please explain. John the baptizer made a differentiation.

Doug Brents said:
I do understand the difference.

Spirit baptism (in tongues of fire) has occurred exactly twice in all the history of the world (Pentecost (to the Jews), and Cornelius (to the Gentiles)).

Well, this reveals that you don't understand Spirit baptism. It's not an emotional thing.

It is the giving of the Holy Spirit to live IN believers. It is described as a gift in Acts several times. It is called the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It is also the sealing ministry in Eph 1:13,14.

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit (which some people think of when they talk about Spirit baptism) is a result of water baptism.

There are no verses that support this idea.

Water baptism is the point at which the Holy Spirit takes action, based on our belief and by the power of Jesus’ Blood, to cut our sin and sin nature from us, unite us with Christ, resurrect us like He did Christ, and come to indwelling us as the temple of God (Rom 6:1-11, Col 2:11-13).

Not close. First, believers do NOT lose their sin nature. If that were true, believers would NOT sin again. Ever. And, that is patently untrue. There are many commands to quit sinning. Water baptism does NOT "unite us with Christ". That is what Eph 1:13,14 is about. Being "included in Christ".

We know this is water baptism because there is only one baptism in the NT Church (Eph 4:5-6), Jesus commanded the Apostles to do it (Spirit baptism being something only God can do) (Mark 16:16, Matt 28:19), we are told that the water of the Flood is analogous to the water of baptism that saves us (1 Pet 3:21), and Paul tells us that we are made spotless as the bride for Christ by the washing of water through the Word (Eph 5:26).

This shows that you do not understand the difference.

There are many, many verses that say we must remain faithful to receive salvation,

This is nothing more than works salvation. Because being faithful is a lifestyle. We are not saved by what WE do, but rather, what Jesus did for us.

you just don’t like them because the disprove your preconceptions.

No, your claims do not disprove anything. And I have provided clear verses, no preconceptions.

Oh, I love your answer. It shows your lack of understanding of Scripture.
Yes, the indwelling of the Spirit is the seal of our salvation, but as I pointed out above, the indwelling is the result of water baptism.

Your only "proof text" is Acts 2:38 and you are simply reading is wrong. Totally misunderstanding.

[QUOE] The washing away of our sins, and the resurrection of our soul is accomplished by the Holy Spirit during water baptism.[/QUOTE]
Where do you read about the "resurrection of our soul" from water baptism????

FreeGrace2 · Sep 30, 2021

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
No, only believers, not "man" will reach perfection. But not in this lifetime. Only when they step into eternity without their sin nature.

fhansen said:
Yes, and yet all men have the potential to reach it; our wills are the main impediment.

Paul was very clear in Romans 7 that he STILL struggled with his sin nature. He wrote in the present tense, not some fantasy past tense activity.

And man posesses no "sin nature", as if something was added at the Fall.

You need to read Romans 7 with an open mind.

Jesus also taught that we must obey the commandments to gain eternal life

Then if that were true, there was NO NEED for Him to die for anyone. What do you do with Rom 3:20 - Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

I believe that is real clear.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 30, 2021

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Of course none of know with certainty who else's name is there. But consider what John wrote:

1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

fhansen said:
The problem then is that everyone who's heard those words, whether at the time they were written or at any point later down through the centuries and applied them to themselves was/is necesarily saved.

No, that is incorrect. It's not those who heard these words is saved, as you claim. It's those who have believed in Christ. John was telling people that if they have believed in Christ they can KNOW they HAVE (POSSESS) eternal life.

And I highly doubt that's true as, for one thing, Scripture tells us that not all who thimk they're saved will be saved.

Here is what we KNOW from Scripture, specifically 1 John 5:13. Those who believe in the Name of the Son of God can know they possess eternal life. The same point is found in John 5:24.

fhansen · Sep 30, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
That is the problem; the words "fellowship" and "relationship" are used interchangeably, but that is false, as I pointed out with my examples.

Didn't you read them? If not, please go back and study them and see if you can prove me wrong. To summarize, 'fellowship' is the state or condition of the relationship. It can be in a good state (harmony) or in a bad state (prodigal).

Paul commanded believers to NOT grieve (Eph 4:30) or quench (1 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit. Do you honestly think a believer can be IN fellowship (harmony) when doing either of these things? I hope not.

You're majoring in the minors here for no good reason, all to shift the focus away from the point at hand I guess- which is the thoroughly Christian concept that man is disconected from his Creator in some fundamental and harmful way-and must come to know Him again, personally, in order to realize eternal life.
"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3

FreeGrace2 said:
To be clear, Adam didn't break relationship. Yes, he rebelled and disobeyed. But the relationship was broken by the sin, under God's warning. Adam wasn't thinking "relationship" when he ate the fruit. He just wanted to stay with the woman. And the woman was deceived by the serpent. As we all know. I'm not attempting to defend Adam but noting facts. In fact, God said nothing about relationship at all. It was a matter of dying if disobedient. Since the woman had eaten before she shared, Adam may have thought, "well, she is still standing. Apparently we don't die if we eat."

Well, you've managed not to say much here, using many words. Adam didn't break the relationship but his sin did? Ok, sure, of course.

His sin was an act of the will and by it he chose himslf, the women, a lie, his own agenda over God's. By denying God's authority Adam treated God as if He was not his God. Adam hadn't yet come to appreciate God, and His rightful godhood, the perfect wisdom of His decrees, of Adam’s absolute need for Him, foolishness that we, Adam's spiritual and physical descendants, may continue in during this life. It's really quite simple. Once, hopefully, the will is informed, and humbled- less influenced by pride- it can begin to will rightly. That's what we're here to do with the help of grace.

FreeGrace2 said:
What they didn't understand was that the warning contained 2 kinds of death. The original has "dying, you will die". iow, the "dying" refers to physical death over time, which we know as aging. The "will die" was immediate and it was spiritual death. iow, their human spirits died immediately. That's why they hid when the Lord came in the evening. They had no way to interact with Him.

They hid because they knew they'd done wrong, that they'd disobeyed their Creator. Anyway, the spiritual death of man, sometimes called the "death of the soul" and the reason he must be born again, is that he fell from friendship with God to a disjointed, anomalous, disordered, unjust and lost state of being. And they didn't repent and will otherwise at that point-they presumably weren't ready to have a change of heart and be reconciled. They were lost-they wouldnt even know the way back home-how to save themselves. That would all take time, experience, revelation and grace- if they were ever to come to that place of restoration. Their story is the story of us all.

FreeGrace2 said:
Remember what Jesus told the woman at the well. Jn 4:24 - God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.”

Jesus was telling the woman that real worship of God requires a human spirit AND worshiping God's way, which is truth.

We begin to worship in spirit and truth as we come to truly love God-it's a natural consequence.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 1, 2021

fhansen said:
You're majoring in the minors here for no good reason, all to shift the focus away from the point at hand I guess- which is the thoroughly Christian concept that man is disconected from his Creator in some fundamental and harmful way-and must come to know Him again, personally, in order to realize eternal life.

No, I'm pointing out what the Bible says about those who receive eternal life. They receive it when they believe, and Jesus says they shall never perish.

That IS the major point and focus of my posts. And you know by now the verses that prove this.

"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3

Please don't suggest or insinuate that this verse somehow trumps John 5:24 and 10:28.

Well, you've managed not to say much here, using many words.

I've made my point by quoting the Scripture that proves that salvation cannot be lost.

Adam didn't break the relationship but his sin did? Ok, sure, of course.

So, you don't think sin offends God? Why don't you?

We begin to worship in spirit and truth as we come to truly love God-it's a natural consequence.

No, we can ONLY worship in spirit WHEN our dead human spirit (thanks Adam) is reborn and we worship God according to His plan (truth).

There is no other way.

But since you have said otherwise, could you provide any verse that says what you are claiming? Thanks.

Doug Brents · Oct 1, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
Well, this reveals that you don't understand Spirit baptism. It's not an emotional thing.

No where did I say anything about Spirit baptism being “an emotional thing”. I said it has only happened twice in all of history. It is not the indwelling of the Spirit.

FreeGrace2 said:
It is the giving of the Holy Spirit to live IN believers. It is described as a gift in Acts several times. It is called the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It is also the sealing ministry in Eph 1:13,14.

That is not Spirit baptism.

FreeGrace2 said:
There are no verses that support this idea.

Acts 2:38 and others besides. The indwelling is a result of something we do (water baptism).

FreeGrace2 said:
Not close. First, believers do NOT lose their sin nature. If that were true, believers would NOT sin again. Ever. And, that is patently untrue. There are many commands to quit sinning. Water baptism does NOT "unite us with Christ". That is what Eph 1:13,14 is about. Being "included in Christ".

No, that is exactly what Rom 6:1-11 and Col 2:11-13 both say.

FreeGrace2 said:
This shows that you do not understand the difference.

No. It shows that I have used Scripture to compliment Scripture to reveal the truth of what is being said.

FreeGrace2 said:
This is nothing more than works salvation. Because being faithful is a lifestyle. We are not saved by what WE do, but rather, what Jesus did for us.

Understand and agreed. But we must take hold of the offer that God put on the table for us. There is nothing in the water that can save us. But the Spirit meets us there to put the saving power of the Blood od Christ on and in us.

FreeGrace2 said:
Your only "proof text" is Acts 2:38 and you are simply reading is wrong. Totally misunderstanding.

No. That is not the only “proof text”. It is one of a couple of dozen. But it does say very clearly what I slam saying. Mark 16:16 does too. Acts 22:19 also.

FreeGrace2 said:
Where do you read about the "resurrection of our soul" from water baptism????

Rom 6:1-11
“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
Col 2:11-13
“In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses”
The baptism mentioned here must be water baptism because it is something WE do, not something God does. And it is in the something WE do that the Spirit does the work of removing our sin (and sin nature) so that we are a new creature and are United with Christ.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 1, 2021

Doug Brents said:
No where did I say anything about Spirit baptism being “an emotional thing”. I said it has only happened twice in all of history.

The Bible clearly indicates that the baptism of the Spirit occurs EVERY TIME a person becomes a believer.

Here's an example, from Scripture:

Acts 10-
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.
47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”

This is explained further in Acts 11-
15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.
16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”

So, it's clear from Scripture, WHEN a person believes in Christ, they receive the Holy Spirit, which is the baptism of the Spirit.

I can't imagine what 2 times in history the baptism of the Holy Spirit occurred.

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
It is the giving of the Holy Spirit to live IN believers. It is described as a gift in Acts several times. It is called the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It is also the sealing ministry in Eph 1:13,14.

It is not the indwelling of the Spirit.

That is an opinion. From Acts 10 and 11, it is clear that receiving the Holy Spirit "when you believed" IS the baptism of the Spirit.

That is not Spirit baptism.

It clearly is. But you have demonstrated that you do not understand the indwelling of the Spirit.

Acts 2:38 and others besides. The indwelling is a result of something we do (water baptism).

This is an opinion.

No. It shows that I have used Scripture to compliment Scripture to reveal the truth of what is being said.

Rather, you've shown that you do not understand the indwelling of the Spirit, which is the baptism of the Spirit.

Understand and agreed. But we must take hold of the offer that God put on the table for us. There is nothing in the water that can save us. But the Spirit meets us there to put the saving power of the Blood od Christ on and in us.

Scripture disagrees with this. The Spirit is given WHEN a person believes, as both Acts 10 and 11 both show clearly.

Rom 6:1-11
“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

v.3 is specifically referring to the indwelling of the Spirit.

What do you do (how do you understand) 1 Cor 10:1-5
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

Specifically v.2. Explain how the Jews were baptized "into Moses in the cloud and in the sea".

Esp given that:
Neh 9:11 - You divided the sea before them, so that they passed through it on dry ground, but you hurled their pursuers into the depths, like a stone into mighty waters.

Bobber · Oct 1, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
So, it seems you are saying that salvation can be lost because of sin. Just how many sins did Christ die for? The Bible says ALL sins.

This is a crowd at the Great White Throne judgment (Rev 20:11-15) who are basing their entrance into the kingdom on their WORKS. They were religious legalists who thought that salvation was based on works. Their own works. Just look at their boasts.

However, salvation is based on believing in the WORK of Jesus Christ on the cross.

What did Jesus say to this crowd? "I NEVER knew you". Could He say that to anyone who had ever believed in Him? Of course not.

This proves that this crowd NEVER believed. And then won't get into the kingdom.

From your post, it appears that you don't actually believe either John 3:18 or 2 Thess 2:12. Why is that?

Aren't there some obvious verses of scripture you're not considering? Like 2 Pt 2:21?

For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A dog returns to its own vomit,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.” 2 Pt 2:21

What did Jesus say to this crowd? "I NEVER knew you". Could He say that to anyone who had ever believed in Him? Of course not.

You're quoting from Mt 7:21. Let's read it,

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

So what you're suggesting is by his saying to those not going to heaven "I never knew you" that means it has to apply as a universal pronouncement he said to EVERYONE who didn't make heaven their home. Do we really see such an insistence in the text? I'd say NO we don't. By his saying MANY it doesn't mean to say nor prove to say there wasn't some who actually he did know but who fell away. He just saying there will be MANY of this certain type of group. They'll be claiming their lives were really in fellowship with God but they weren't. No proof to say there couldn't be others who at a time were in fellowship and lost it. And I don't think one can get around the warning of 2 Pt 2:21 and others.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 1, 2021

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
So, it seems you are saying that salvation can be lost because of sin. Just how many sins did Christ die for? The Bible says ALL sins.

Bobber said:
Aren't there some obvious verses of scripture you're not considering?

No.

Like 2 Pt 2:21?

For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A dog returns to its own vomit,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.” 2 Pt 2:21

The words "the last state" is also rendered as "worse off at the end" and "worse off than before" and "their state is worse that at the beginning".

So, does these refer to the eternal state? No. Peter was referring to a believer who got entangled in the defilements of the world, and the fact that his state in THAT condition is worse than before he got re-entangled again.

Here's the thing: IF this passage taught that a believer could end up in the lake of fire, then what Jesus said in John 10:28 cannot be true. Because Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall NEVER PERISH. You are claiming that a believer CAN perish, which is contrary to what Jesus said.

And Jesus also taught WHEN a person receives eternal life in John 5:24: when they believe. The verse says "whoever believes HAS eternal life". So, WHEN a person becomes a believer (and saved) they possess eternal life. And John10:28 applies WHEN a person believes, because they are recipients of eternal life.

I see no way to reconcile your understanding of 2 Pet 2:21 with John 5:24 and 10:28.

You're quoting from Mt 7:21. Let's read it,

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

So what you're suggesting is by his saying to those not going to heaven "I never knew you" that means it has to apply as a universal pronouncement he said to EVERYONE who didn't make heaven their home. Do we really see such an insistence in the text? I'd say NO we don't. By his saying MANY it doesn't mean to say nor prove to say there wasn't some who actually he did know but who fell away. He just saying there will be MANY of this certain type of group. They'll be claiming their lives were really in fellowship with God but they weren't. No proof to say there couldn't be others who at a time were in fellowship and lost it. And I don't think one can get around the warning of 2 Pt 2:21 and others.

The point is that Jesus could NOT have said "I never knew you" to anyone who ever had believed in Him for salvation.

Because anyone who EVER DID believe in Him received eternal life, per John 5:24 and 10:28 and those people SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Also consider what the Bible says about who will be condemned:

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Both verses have the words "have not believed". This means "have NEVER believed", because anyone who has EVER believed cannot be described as "have not believed".

Doug Brents · Oct 1, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
The Bible clearly indicates that the baptism of the Spirit occurs EVERY TIME a person becomes a believer.

Here's an example, from Scripture:

Acts 10-
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.
47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”

This is explained further in Acts 11-
15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.
16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”

So, it's clear from Scripture, WHEN a person believes in Christ, they receive the Holy Spirit, which is the baptism of the Spirit.

Yes, that is one of the two times that the baptism of the Holy Spirit (in fire) occurred. This is NOT the indwelling of the Spirit.

The Spirit of God came upon the Gentiles as a sign that, contrary to the Apostle’s previous understanding, the Gentiles were now accepted into the Kingdom (the Church). This is clear from Acts 11:17.

This Spirit baptism did not indicate the Gentile’s salvation at that point. This is clear from the fact that Peter asks if anyone (Jew) present objected to them being baptized in water. Water baptism would be redundant if they were saved when the Spirit gave them miraculous power.

FreeGrace2 said:
I can't imagine what 2 times in history the baptism of the Holy Spirit occurred.

The “baptism of the Holy Spirit” occurred on exactly two occasions: Pentecost (for the Jews), and here with Cornelius (for the Gentiles).

FreeGrace2 said:
v.3 is specifically referring to the indwelling of the Spirit.

NO! Verse 3 is referring to WATER BAPTISM. It is in water that we are “buried with Him”.

FreeGrace2 said:
What do you do (how do you understand) 1 Cor 10:1-5
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

Specifically v.2. Explain how the Jews were baptized "into Moses in the cloud and in the sea".

The word “baptize” literally means “to immerse”. Verse 2 here is saying the Israelites were immersed in the cloud and in the sea and in Moses. This is not in any way a reference to NT baptism. This was a figurative baptism, because they were not actually “in” the cloud (it went ahead of them), nor were they “in Moses” (they were under his leadership), nor were they “in” the sea” (they passed between it, not in it).

But we are commanded to be baptized in water to be saved (Mark 16:16), to receive forgiveness of sin (Acts 2:38), to be made holy and cleansed (Eph 5:26), to be saved (1 Pet 3:21). And as I said before, there is only ONE baptism in the NT (Eph 4:5-6).

fhansen · Oct 1, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
Paul was very clear in Romans 7 that he STILL struggled with his sin nature. He wrote in the present tense, not some fantasy past tense activity.

We all still struggle with it-I never said otherwise. But there's an answer at the end of Rom 7: Jesus Chrsit, who can and wants to and will overcome sin in us! That's a major part of His mission. The alternative is to say that sin doesn't matter anymore for a believer-God no longer cares about it-which is pure, unscriptural nonsense.

FreeGrace2 said:
You need to read Romans 7 with an open mind.

No, you do-seriously. You've been greatly, unwittingly, influenced by novel ideas that have been floating around for several centuries now. Spend some serious time with ECFs as well. And consider studying the teachings of the ancient churches, at least the EO on justification.

FreeGrace2 said:
Then if that were true, there was NO NEED for Him to die for anyone. What do you do with Rom 3:20 - Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Again, you need to read that with the open mind you've mentioned. Consider all of Romans with the understanding that the righteousness given to man at justification is a real, personal, righteousness, the righteousness that the law pointed to but could not bring into reality, and one that man can and is expected to walk in as a participation in the life of God, as His child, living by the Spirit now.

“But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it.” Rom 3:21

"This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, Rom 3:22

“…just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Rom 5:21

“But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Rom 6:22-23

"And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:3-4

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13

“If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.” 1 John 1:8-9

"...not having my own righteousness from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God on the basis of faith" (Phil 3:9).

Now, Rom 3:20 can be better understood, with no conflict between it and, say,
Matt 19:17 and Rom 2:13. Compare:

“Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.” Rom 3:20

“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17

“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Rom 2:13

Why is there no conflict? Because, under the new Covenant, where righteousness is still required, God now enables that very righteousness, by the Spirit, under grace, not under the law, placing His law in our minds and writing it on our hearts!! For that, we don't even need to hear the law, let alone be under it. So, again, the very next verse after Rom 3:20:

“But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it.” Rom 3:21

fhansen · Oct 1, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
No, I'm pointing out what the Bible says about those who receive eternal life. They receive it when they believe, and Jesus says they shall never perish.

That IS the major point and focus of my posts. And you know by now the verses that prove this.

I know which verses some rely on to persuade themselves of eternal security. And it requires ignoring much of the rest of Scripture.

FreeGrace2 said:
Please don't suggest or insinuate that this verse somehow trumps John 5:24 and 10:28.

I'm not sure where you get this stuff but I wouldn't insinuate any such thing-because there's no conflict between those verses-or any reason to think there might be. The problem is simply that you lack understanding of the full true gospel.

FreeGrace2 said:
So, you don't think sin offends God? Why don't you?

You're doing the same thing again here-using a non-sequitur.

FreeGrace2 said:
No, we can ONLY worship in spirit WHEN our dead human spirit (thanks Adam) is reborn and we worship God according to His plan (truth).

There's no difference here to begin with as long as one understands that gift of love is part and parcel of being born again, made a new creation. The point is that there's a reason why we begin to worship in spirit and truth, and it's the same motivation for doing good for others, overcoming sin, washing one's robes, etc. And that reason and motivation, the only authentic one, is love, as love fulfills the law.
"And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us." Rom 5:5

And so the Church of God, having carried the truth of Christ's gospel since the beginng, can correctly teach:
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

FreeGrace2 · Oct 1, 2021

Doug Brents said:
Yes, that is one of the two times that the baptism of the Holy Spirit (in fire) occurred. This is NOT the indwelling of the Spirit.

They ARE the same, unless you have very clear verses that distinguishes between them.

The Spirit of God came upon the Gentiles as a sign that, contrary to the Apostle’s previous understanding, the Gentiles were now accepted into the Kingdom (the Church). This is clear from Acts 11:17.

Yes, they received the indwelling Holy Spirit, same as the Jews already had. Acts 11

This Spirit baptism did not indicate the Gentile’s salvation at that point.

It sure did. The Bible is very clear on that.

This is clear from the fact that Peter asks if anyone (Jew) present objected to them being baptized in water.

Irrelevant to the clear issue. They believed and they were then water baptized.

Acts 11-
16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”

This could not be any more clear. These 2 verses equate believing with being baptized with the Spirit, which is the same as being indwelt.

Water baptism would be redundant if they were saved when the Spirit gave them miraculous power.

Water baptism is a symbol that identifies the believer with Christ.

The “baptism of the Holy Spirit” occurred on exactly two occasions: Pentecost (for the Jews), and here with Cornelius (for the Gentiles).

No. Those are just 2 of MILLIONS of occurrences of believers being indwelt with the Spirit.

What do you do with Acts 8 and the people who received the Holy Spirit? What do you call that?

NO! Verse 3 is referring to WATER BAPTISM. It is in water that we are “buried with Him”.

Water baptism is a symbol of our being identified with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection.

The word “baptize” literally means “to immerse”. Verse 2 here is saying the Israelites were immersed in the cloud and in the sea and in Moses. This is not in any way a reference to NT baptism. This was a figurative baptism, because they were not actually “in” the cloud (it went ahead of them), nor were they “in Moses” (they were under his leadership), nor were they “in” the sea” (they passed between it, not in it).

I recommend studying the etimology of 'baptize'.

It was originally used in the Greek for dipping a cloth into a vat of dye. The cloth became identified with the color of the dye, and the word began to be used for identification.

There are 2 kinds of baptism; real and ritual. When water is used, it is ALWAYS a ritual.

A real baptism includes no water, as you noted in 1 Cor 10:1-5. That was a real identification. It is impossible to prove otherwise.

Water baptisms are symbolic of an identification with someone else.

But we are commanded to be baptized in water to be saved (Mark 16:16)

First, scholars say that v.9-20 do NOT occur in the earliest and most reliable manuscripts, so the verses are NOT inspired.

Second, how do you know the scribe wasn't thinking of the baptism of the Spirit in v.16?
iow, you can't prove your claim.

to receive forgiveness of sin (Acts 2:38)

Moving forward in Acts, we find how man is forgiven: Acts 10:43 - All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

to be made holy and cleansed (Eph 5:26)

This is possibly an OT metaphor for cleansing (cf. John 15:3; Titus 3:5). It may refer to

the liturgy of baptism (cf. Matt. 28:19-20; Acts 2:38; Titus 3:5)
the public confession of faith at baptism (cf. Acts 22:16; 1 Cor. 6:11)
a continuation of the marital imagery, a ritual bath of the bride before the ceremony, as a cultural symbol of purity

"The word" probably does not refer to the Bible, but to the words of the administrator of the baptism or of the profession of faith of the candidate.

to be saved (1 Pet 3:21).

That verse very clearly states that literal water SYMBOLIZES the baptism (of the Spirit) that saves.

New International Version
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

New Living Translation
And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Berean Study Bible
And this water symbolizes the baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body, but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Good News Translation
which was a symbol pointing to baptism, which now saves you. It is not the washing off of bodily dirt, but the promise made to God from a good conscience. It saves you through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

International Standard Version
Baptism, which is symbolized by that water, now saves you also, not by removing dirt from the body, but by asking God for a clear conscience based on the resurrection of Jesus, the Messiah,

New Heart English Bible
This is a symbol of baptism, which now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the body, but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

World English Bible
This is a symbol of baptism, which now saves you--not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

And as I said before, there is only ONE baptism in the NT (Eph 4:5-6).

While you are quite free to say whatever you want, that doesn't make it true.

I've explained the 2 kinds of baptism. And given examples of each. But it's up to you to accept what the Bible says about baptism.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 1, 2021

fhansen said:
We all still struggle with it-I never said otherwise. But there's an answer at the end of Rom 7: Jesus Chrsit, who can and wants to and will overcome sin in us! That's a major part of His mission.

Do you think this is automatic or a guaranteed result?

The alternative is to say that sin doesn't matter anymore for a believer-God no longer cares about it-which is pure, unscriptural nonsense.

I totally disagree with your faulty conclusion. There is no "alternative". Jesus gives believers the power to live the Christian life, but that power must be accessed. While the Spirit does live in each of us, He must be accessed. There is an alternative to being filled with the Spirit. It is either grieving (Eph 4:30) or quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit.

I find that very many believers have no understanding of these principles.

And, without understanding them, believers have only 1 alternative; living by the power of their own will power. Even atheists can be very moral. But it's a morality from the power of their own will power, which is from their sin nature.

And we know what God thinks of our own morality:

Isa 64:6 - All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

btw, "filthy rags" literally in the Hebrew means "used menstrual rags". How's that for being highly offensive.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 1, 2021

fhansen said:
I know which verses some rely on to persuade themselves of eternal security. And it requires ignoring much of the rest of Scripture.

Couldn't be more wrong.

Jesus was clear about WHEN a person possesses eternal life. John 5:24 says whoever believes possesses eternal life.

Then, Jesus said that recipients of eternal life (which is WHEN one believes) SHALL NEVER PERISH, in John 10:28.

Can you prove that these verses don't really mean what they say? Or just explain to me what they actually mean, if you can. Thanks.

I'm not sure where you get this stuff but I wouldn't insinuate any such thing-because there's no conflict between those verses-or any reason to think there might be.

This is the glaring conflict:

Jesus said in John 10:28 that recipients (believers) of eternal life shall never perish.

Your view is that believers, who have received eternal life CAN perish.

If you don't see the conflict here, why are we even having a discussion?

The problem is simply that you lack understanding of the full true gospel.

Before throwing insults, please address the conflict that I have just explained.

fhansen · Oct 1, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
Do you think this is automatic or a guaranteed result?

No, as I've been saying all along-it's not automatic-man's will remains involved from beginning to end. And this is why salvation is worked out. And why Rom 8:12-13 rings true.

FreeGrace2 said:
I totally disagree with your faulty conclusion. There is no "alternative". Jesus gives believers the power to live the Christian life, but that power must be accessed. While the Spirit does live in each of us, He must be accessed. There is an alternative to being filled with the Spirit. It is either grieving (Eph 4:30) or quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit.

Taken to its logical conclusion, that is the only alternative. Unless sin can continue to keep us out of heaven, which Scipture says it will, then God's no longer concerned with it in any meaningful way.

fhansen · Oct 1, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
Can you prove that these verses don't really mean what they say? Or just explain to me what they actually mean, if you can. Thanks.

Already have. Scripture shows salvation as a past, present, and future event, something to be worked out, something to strive towards and persevere in obtaining-with sin a definite impediment to its realization.

fhansen · Oct 1, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
No, that is incorrect. It's not those who heard these words is saved, as you claim. It's those who have believed in Christ. John was telling people that if they have believed in Christ they can KNOW they HAVE (POSSESS) eternal life.

No, the point was simple enough. You're implying that everyone who's ever heard those words and applied them to themselves, as you have, was/is necessarily saved.

Doug Brents · Oct 1, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
What do you do with Acts 8 and the people who received the Holy Spirit? What do you call that?

In verse 12 the people who believe are baptized (and receive the indwelling of the Spirit (as Acts 2:38 says they will) as we do today), but they do not receive miraculous power as that is only transmitted by the laying on of hand by the Apostles. Phillip, not being one of the 12, was not able to pass on the miraculous power of the Spirit. But when Peter and John, 2 of the 12, came down, they laid on their hands and people received the miraculous power of the Spirit. That is what Simon wanted to buy, the ability to give the miraculous working of the Spirit.

FreeGrace2 said:
Water baptism is a symbol of our being identified with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection.

It is that, true, but it is also the point in time at which we are brought into Christ (Gal 3:27).

FreeGrace2 said:
First, scholars say that v.9-20 do NOT occur in the earliest and most reliable manuscripts, so the verses are NOT inspired.

Second, how do you know the scribe wasn't thinking of the baptism of the Spirit in v.16?
iow, you can't prove your claim.

A couple of reasons: Acts 2:38 corroborates Mark 16:16 as water baptism being the point at which forgiveness is received. And the fact that there is only one baptism in the NT Church, and we are commanded to do it, not just receive it, makes that one baptism water baptism.

FreeGrace2 said:
This is possibly an OT metaphor for cleansing (cf. John 15:3; Titus 3:5). It may refer to

the liturgy of baptism (cf. Matt. 28:19-20; Acts 2:38; Titus 3:5)

the public confession of faith at baptism (cf. Acts 22:16; 1 Cor. 6:11)

a continuation of the marital imagery, a ritual bath of the bride before the ceremony, as a cultural symbol of purity

"The word" probably does not refer to the Bible, but to the words of the administrator of the baptism or of the profession of faith of the candidate.

Indeed it is an allusion to the bathing of a bride before her wedding, but that is the metaphor for baptism which cleanses our sin. And the “word” may be the confession one gives before baptism (Rom 10:9-10), or to the Word (Jesus Himself). Either way, it is still an allusion to water baptism.

FreeGrace2 said:
That verse very clearly states that literal water SYMBOLIZES the baptism (of the Spirit) that saves.

New International Version
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

New Living Translation
And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Berean Study Bible
And this water symbolizes the baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body, but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Good News Translation
which was a symbol pointing to baptism, which now saves you. It is not the washing off of bodily dirt, but the promise made to God from a good conscience. It saves you through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

International Standard Version
Baptism, which is symbolized by that water, now saves you also, not by removing dirt from the body, but by asking God for a clear conscience based on the resurrection of Jesus, the Messiah,

New Heart English Bible
This is a symbol of baptism, which now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the body, but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

World English Bible
This is a symbol of baptism, which now saves you--not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

“This water” was the water of the Flood, which symbolizes the water of baptism. And it is not that the water itself cleanses our sin, it is the purification of our soul (conscience) through the power of Christ.

FreeGrace2 said:
While you are quite free to say whatever you want, that doesn't make it true.

I've explained the 2 kinds of baptism. And given examples of each. But it's up to you to accept what the Bible says about baptism.

Ditto

FreeGrace2 · Oct 1, 2021

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
I totally disagree with your faulty conclusion. There is no "alternative". Jesus gives believers the power to live the Christian life, but that power must be accessed. While the Spirit does live in each of us, He must be accessed. There is an alternative to being filled with the Spirit. It is either grieving (Eph 4:30) or quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit.

fhansen said:
Taken to its logical conclusion, that is the only alternative.

The premise is not logical.

Unless sin can continue to keep us out of heaven, which Scipture says it will

Stop there. No, it won't. If that were true, then Jesus could NOT have died for all sins.

Scripture says He did. So, please provide any verse that proves that Jesus didn't die for every sin.

then God's no longer concerned with it in any meaningful way.

Wrong. Are human parents concerned with the behavior of their children? Of course they are. Why would God be any different?

In fact, He is so concerned for His children He has given many warnings to them about the consequences for disobedience and unfaithfulness.

They include painful discipline (Heb 12:11) in time, and loss of reward in eternity.

O.B.N.C.

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Oldbie

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Oldbie

Oldbie

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Oldbie

Oldbie

Oldbie

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Similar threads