FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
Let me ask you this: did a former believer EVER receive the gift of eternal life?
They possess eternal life until they no longer believe.
This is the sticking point. Where does the Bible say in unambigous words that eternal life can be ever revoked, taken away, removed, lost, et? That's the problem with your position. There are no such verses. So this is a presumption. There is NO evidence of eternal life being lost.

And, your position goes directly against what the Lord Jesus said about recipients of eternal life. He specifically said "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish".

How could He have made it any more clear than that? Those He gives eternal life shall never perish. You have not shown from Scripture anything contrary to that.

That's why we are warned that falling for false teaching brings destruction.
Yes. Destruction can take various forms. All will be painful. God's discipline IS painful according to Heb 12:11. The many warnings are to warn saved people of painful discipline when they are unfaithful or disobedient. However, NONE of the warnings mention loss of salvation or eternal life.

"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron."

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."
Right. In the second verse you quoted, the context are unsaved false teachers.

I think you are trying to compare apples to oranges.
 
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FreeGrace2

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John 5:24 with John 10:28
John 3:18 with 2 Thess 2:12

Here are some more:

Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

The red words show WHEN a person is "included IN Christ", which is WHEN they believed.

The blue words show who the seal is; the Holy Spirit.

The green words show what this sealing ministry of the Spirit DOES: guarantees our inheritance until the redemption of God's possession. Which are sealed people.

So, from the MOMENT WHEN a person believes, they are sealed with the Spirit, a guarantee of their inheritance until the redemption of those sealed.

These 2 verses teach eternal security just as much as the previous 4 that I've shared over and over. So now you have 6 verses to explain what they say if you disagree with me.

But they are so clearly stated, it is impossible to show any other meaning.
Ephesians 1:13-14

In whom you also, after you had heard the word of truth, (the gospel of your salvation;) in whom also believing, you were signed with the holy Spirit of promise, Who is the pledge of our inheritance, unto the redemption of acquisition, unto the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:30
Also, do not be grieving God’s holy spirit, with which you have been sealed for a day of releasing by ransom.

So, this sealing is towards a future day of redemption, and there is a warning against grieving the holy spirit. Why?
To "grieve the Holy Spirit" is to be out of fellowship with the Lord, and unable to bear fruit.

How can a believer produce fruit by the Spirit WHEN they are grieving Him? Not possible.

Isaiah 63:10, 19

But they rebelled and grieved his holy spirit. He then turned into their enemy,
And he fought against them. Oh wait, but weren't they his? Yes, until they grieved the Holy Spirit.
But you seem to keep forgetting that God provides discipline for His people when they sin.

This is in the first part of the verse you quoted:

"In whom ye also trusted..."

Our salvation involves our trust in the Lord. If we lost that trust, if we decide not to continue to trust in Him, then we fall away.
Again, this is just presumption, assumption, or an opinion.

Without clearly stated verses that unambiguously teach that salvation/eternal life can be lost, there is no reason to believe such an idea.

I must emphasize what Jesus said in John 10:28. He gives eternal life and the recipients shall never perish.

The clearest expression of eternal security in the Bible. It is therefore impossible to prove that salvation can be lost.

So, those who think that salvation can be lost simply ignore or don't believe what Jesus said in John 10:28.

For those who believe that believers can ultimately perish, that idea goes directly against what Jesus said.

Recipients of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH. It could NOT be any clearer.
 
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renniks

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FreeGrace2 said:
Let me ask you this: did a former believer EVER receive the gift of eternal life?

This is the sticking point. Where does the Bible say in unambigous words that eternal life can be ever revoked, taken away, removed, lost, et? That's the problem with your position. There are no such verses. So this is a presumption. There is NO evidence of eternal life being lost.

And, your position goes directly against what the Lord Jesus said about recipients of eternal life. He specifically said "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish".

How could He have made it any more clear than that? Those He gives eternal life shall never perish. You have not shown from Scripture anything contrary to that.


Yes. Destruction can take various forms. All will be painful. God's discipline IS painful according to Heb 12:11. The many warnings are to warn saved people of painful discipline when they are unfaithful or disobedient. However, NONE of the warnings mention loss of salvation or eternal life.


Right. In the second verse you quoted, the context are unsaved false teachers.

I think you are trying to compare apples to oranges.
"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

You can't abandon a faith if you never had it. No, it doesn't just apply to unsaved false teachers.
 
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renniks

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To "grieve the Holy Spirit" is to be out of fellowship with the Lord, and unable to bear fruit.
No, it clearly means to fall away.
"All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men; but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven unto men" (Matthew 12:31).
This is referring to a final rejection of the Holy Spirit. If there's an unforgivable sin, then obviously people who were once saved can fall away. The sealing isn't unconditional.
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
Let me ask you this: did a former believer EVER receive the gift of eternal life?

This is the sticking point. Where does the Bible say in unambigous words that eternal life can be ever revoked, taken away, removed, lost, et? That's the problem with your position. There are no such verses. So this is a presumption. There is NO evidence of eternal life being lost.
"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."
This verse doesn't answer my question.

You can't abandon a faith if you never had it. No, it doesn't just apply to unsaved false teachers.
I never said it did. Why would you think otherwise??
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
To "grieve the Holy Spirit" is to be out of fellowship with the Lord, and unable to bear fruit.
No, it clearly means to fall away.
Where in the Bible convinces you of this?? It obviously refers to sin. Sin grieves the Holy Spirit. And when a believer sins, they need forgiveness and cleansing, which occurs when 1 John 1:9 is applied.

"All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men; but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven unto men" (Matthew 12:31).
This is referring to a final rejection of the Holy Spirit.
Where do you find "final rejection" anywhere in Scripture? It seems you are just throwing out guesses since you don't have any scriptural evidence that supports your claims.

But, to address Matt 12:31; look at the context. Jesus made that comment about those Jews who had seen His miracles and attributed the miracles to the power of Satan.

That, and that alone, is the "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit". So that cannot even be an issue today, 2 centuries after that. None whatsoever.

If there's an unforgivable sin, then obviously people who were once saved can fall away. The sealing isn't unconditional.
First, it is an error to understand "fall away" as loss of salvation. That is merely an opinion or presumption. In Luke 8:13 Jesus used it to clarify "believed for a while". iow, they fell away from believing. They ceased to believe.

Jesus said NOTHING about losing salvation.

In fact, He couldn't have, because He PROMISES that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. So how could He say otherwise elsewhere?

Second, haven't you read Eph 1:13,14?
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

So, a few questions to determine how well you understand what Paul wrote.

1. Is a sealed believer "God's possession"?
2. Is the Holy Spirit's sealing conditional or unconditional, based on the word "guaranteeing"?
3. When does this sealing ministry of the Spirit begin?

I look forward to your answer.
 
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Doug Brents

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GOOD GRIEF. Are you being serious? If you really believe that, please quote the verse that informed you of that. And, why do you keep refusing to believe John 5:24 where Jesus said those who believe possess eternal life?

Passages on baptism is easy:
Mark 16:16
Acts 2:38
Rom 6:1-11
Col 2:11-13
1 Pet 3:21
Eph 5:26 and many others

As for the condition of remaining faithful, the NT it full of them. I have quoted many and cited more, but you refuse to believe what you read.

Well, I just as strongly reject your presumption that water baptism is required for salvation.

You, and many of those who claim to be Christians dispute that very clear point in Scripture. But then there are many who dispute the very existence of God. That doesn’t make them right.

And you KNOW you do NOT have any verses that say this. This is just a presumption.

1 John 1:7 - “If we walk in the Light as He (Jesus) is in the Light, … and the blood of Jesus (continually) cleanses us from all sin.”

Again, you have no verses that say this.

Rather, Jesus was unambiguous. Those He gives eternal life (believers) shall never perish. This gift is given when the person becomes a believer. John 5:24.

Prove me wrong by addressing both John 5:24 and 10:28 and exegete them to show me my error.

John 5:19-29
“Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.20 For the Father loves the Son, andshows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.22 For the Father judges no one, buthas committed all judgment to the Son, 23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also,because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.“

The verb “believes” in verse is present participle active. This indicates an action that is continually active. It is not a one time thing. This is the same kind of continually present action we see in 1 John 1:7 in the word cleanses. It is a continual action, not just a one time thing.

What is the implication? Further down, in verse 29, we see that it is the actions of each person that are judged, not just the mental state (or the fact that they believed once upon a time).

The context of "outer darkness" is in context of the wedding supper. This will occur ON EARTH when Jesus Christ returns at the Second Advent. Rev 19 shows the preparation for the wedding, and immediately the armies of heaven (all the dead saints) accompanying Jesus back to earth, for the wedding supper and the Millennial Kingdom.

That does not fit with other Scriptures, but is not within the scope of this thread.

This is just a copout. You can't defend your presumptions, so you try to hide behind your fantasy about those "not led by the Spirit". I'll bet you can't even describe how to be "filled with the Spirit" that Paul commanded of all believers in Eph 5:18.

Being filled with the Spirit is a consequence of being baptized into Christ (Acts 2:38).

Your cop-out excuse is only a devious insinuation that the Holy Spirit doesn't indwell me. That's tantamount to claiming that I'm not saved. That's a cheap shot. But you at least have revealed your agenda.
I don’t know you, nor do I know anything about you other than what you have said in this forum. However, from what you have said I can see that you have a LOT of very unBiblical ideas and beliefs.

My only agenda is to see the Word preached and taught accurately. You do not do that! You teach som very dangerous and damning doctrines.

Now, if I asked you, “Have you been baptized into Christ to receive forgiveness of your sins?”, as is commanded of the Jews in Acts 2:38, how would you answer?
 
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renniks

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But, to address Matt 12:31; look at the context. Jesus made that comment about those Jews who had seen His miracles and attributed the miracles to the power of Satan.

That, and that alone, is the "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit". So that cannot even be an issue today, 2 centuries after that. None whatsoever.
Seriously?
That's a very narrow perspective.
He said that to people who had rejected him even though they had ample opportunity to accept his teachings, given what they knew of scripture.
It's no different than many people today.
 
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renniks

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. Is a sealed believer "God's possession"?
2. Is the Holy Spirit's sealing conditional or unconditional, based on the word "guaranteeing"?
3. When does this sealing ministry of the Spirit begin?

I look forward to your answer.
Of course. These are promises given to his own, defined as those who hear his voice and follow him.
They are guaranteed eternal life.
They are not promises for non believers or former believers that have denied him.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Passages on baptism is easy:
Mark 16:16
Acts 2:38
Rom 6:1-11
Col 2:11-13
1 Pet 3:21
Eph 5:26 and many others
yes, there are many passages on baptism. Do you understand the difference between water and Spirit baptism? Please explain. John the baptizer made a differentiation.

As for the condition of remaining faithful, the NT it full of them.
I believe that. But, there are NO verses that condition salvation on "remaining faithful".

If there were, then Jesus would be a liar, because He said recipients of eternal life, which is WHEN a believer believes, per John 5:24, shall never perish, per John 10:28.

If you can prove that these 2 verses don't support what I've just said, please do.

I have quoted many and cited more, but you refuse to believe what you read.
Rather, I don't believe what you claim the verses teach. That's the difference. Every one of them can be explained apart from your view.

FreeGrace2 said:
Well, I just as strongly reject your presumption that water baptism is required for salvation.
You, and many of those who claim to be Christians dispute that very clear point in Scripture.
First, I don't "claim" to be a Christian. I AM a Christian. I have placed my full trust in the work of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, on my behalf. Do you have a problem with that?

Second, what you claim is hardly a 'clear point'. Of course you think so, but until you explain the difference between water and Spirit baptism, you aren't in a position to even discuss "baptism".

But then there are many who dispute the very existence of God. That doesn’t make them right.
What kind of point are you seemingly trying to make?

John 5:19-29
“Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.20 For the Father loves the Son, andshows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.22 For the Father judges no one, buthas committed all judgment to the Son, 23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also,because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.“

The verb “believes” in verse is present participle active. This indicates an action that is continually active. It is not a one time thing.
You keep abusing the Greek present. Action CAN BE ongoing, but in NO WAY is the RESULT of a present tense action required upon the action continuing. That is a myth.

Or, find a Greek text and prove me wrong.

When a person performs ANY action, it is ALWAYS in the present. Jesus used the aorist tense (past tense-without any consideration of continuation) to the woman at the well about "drinking the water He gives and never being thirsty again". Try that with literal water and see how that works out for you.

Jesus' point is a single drink (aorist) will result in never being thirsty again.

And Paul used the aorist tense with the jailer.

This is the same kind of continually present action we see in 1 John 1:7 in the word cleanses. It is a continual action, not just a one time thing.
I would suggest reading on and focusing on v.9, if you really think that. We are cleansed WHEN we confess our sins.

But, a question is begged by your comment. Do you believe in sinless perfection during our life on earth. It seems so.

Being filled with the Spirit is a consequence of being baptized into Christ (Acts 2:38).
OK, just as I thought. You aren't even close to the truth. If that were true, then there would be NO REASON for Paul to issue the COMMAND to be filled. You are talking about a guaranteed result. There are no reasons for commanding what is guaranteed or automatic.

I don’t know you, nor do I know anything about you other than what you have said in this forum. However, from what you have said I can see that you have a LOT of very unBiblical ideas and beliefs.
That's my very opinion of your posts.

My only agenda is to see the Word preached and taught accurately. You do not do that!
That is my opinion of you.

You teach som very dangerous and damning doctrines.
How come you still haven't proven me wrong, or showed from ANY of the verses I have shared that I am misreading or misunderstanding them?

Now, if I asked you, “Have you been baptized into Christ to receive forgiveness of your sins?”, as is commanded of the Jews in Acts 2:38, how would you answer?
You won't like my answer but it is biblical nonetheless. When I placed my faith and trust in Jesus Christ for salvation, I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is described as a seal in Eph 1:13,14. It is a permanent seal, btw.

It was some years later that I was water baptized.
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
. Is a sealed believer "God's possession"?
2. Is the Holy Spirit's sealing conditional or unconditional, based on the word "guaranteeing"?
3. When does this sealing ministry of the Spirit begin?

I look forward to your answer.
Of course. These are promises given to his own, defined as those who hear his voice and follow him.
Yes, v.27 is a description of believers.

They are guaranteed eternal life.
That would be believers in Him.

They are not promises for non believers or former believers that have denied him.
You still misunderstand. When Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish, He really did mean it. But you indicate that you don't believe that.
 
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renniks

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You still misunderstand. When Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish, He really
Former believers exist. You seem to want to deny that fact.
They are never said to have eternal life. You seem to want to ignore that fact.
Who did Jesus promise eternal life to? Believers, as you admitted.
There's no other options available than former believers don't possess eternal life.
 
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Doug Brents

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yes, there are many passages on baptism. Do you understand the difference between water and Spirit baptism? Please explain. John the baptizer made a differentiation.

I do understand the difference.
Spirit baptism (in tongues of fire) has occurred exactly twice in all the history of the world (Pentecost (to the Jews), and Cornelius (to the Gentiles)).
The indwelling of the Holy Spirit (which some people think of when they talk about Spirit baptism) is a result of water baptism.
Water baptism is the point at which the Holy Spirit takes action, based on our belief and by the power of Jesus’ Blood, to cut our sin and sin nature from us, unite us with Christ, resurrect us like He did Christ, and come to indwelling us as the temple of God (Rom 6:1-11, Col 2:11-13). We know this is water baptism because there is only one baptism in the NT Church (Eph 4:5-6), Jesus commanded the Apostles to do it (Spirit baptism being something only God can do) (Mark 16:16, Matt 28:19), we are told that the water of the Flood is analogous to the water of baptism that saves us (1 Pet 3:21), and Paul tells us that we are made spotless as the bride for Christ by the washing of water through the Word (Eph 5:26).

I believe that. But, there are NO verses that condition salvation on "remaining faithful".

If there were, then Jesus would be a liar, because He said recipients of eternal life, which is WHEN a believer believes, per John 5:24, shall never perish, per John 10:28.

If you can prove that these 2 verses don't support what I've just said, please do.

There are many, many verses that say we must remain faithful to receive salvation, you just don’t like them because the disprove your preconceptions.

Rather, I don't believe what you claim the verses teach. That's the difference. Every one of them can be explained apart from your view.

The whole of the Bible can be “explained apart from [my] view.” False explanation of it doesn’t change the truth within it.

First, I don't "claim" to be a Christian. I AM a Christian. I have placed my full trust in the work of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, on my behalf. Do you have a problem with that?

Talk is cheap, as James said in his second chapter.

I would suggest reading on and focusing on v.9, if you really think that. We are cleansed WHEN we confess our sins.

But, a question is begged by your comment. Do you believe in sinless perfection during our life on earth. It seems so.

Correction, here John is talking to those who are already saved, and saying that when the saved confess our sins (not necessarily each sin, but more the fact that we are sinful) they will continually be forgiven. This does not apply to the unsaved, because they have yet to be washed in the Blood.

OK, just as I thought. You aren't even close to the truth. If that were true, then there would be NO REASON for Paul to issue the COMMAND to be filled. You are talking about a guaranteed result. There are no reasons for commanding what is guaranteed or automatic.

Peter was telling them to be baptized (in water) and they would receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. You are right that it would make no sense for him to tell them to do something only God could do.

You won't like my answer but it is biblical nonetheless. When I placed my faith and trust in Jesus Christ for salvation, I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is described as a seal in Eph 1:13,14. It is a permanent seal, btw.

It was some years later that I was water baptized.
Oh, I love your answer. It shows your lack of understanding of Scripture.
Yes, the indwelling of the Spirit is the seal of our salvation, but as I pointed out above, the indwelling is the result of water baptism. The washing away of our sins, and the resurrection of our soul is accomplished by the Holy Spirit during water baptism.
 
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fhansen

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The "there must be something wrong" gives away your own flawed opinions. Who says something must be wrong?
I'd think there might be something wrong with any of us if we looked around ourselves- and inside ourselves-and then proceeded to think that all is well, no problems here on planet earth with the human species.
Are you actually suggesting that God isn't omniscient and didn't see that coming? Because that is exactly what your comments suggest.
Hmm, nope, didn't even hint at that far as I know. Anyway, God allows, for a season and for His purposes and according to His wisdom, the sin/evil that results from the abuse of the good gift of free will.
No, only believers, not "man" will reach perfection. But not in this lifetime. Only when they step into eternity without their sin nature.
Yes, and yet all men have the potential to reach it; our wills are the main impediment. And the “journey to perfection" as it’s been called is to begin here in any case with perfecting already happening even if, as you say, it won’t be completed until the next life-and even though Jesus exhorts us to be perfect as His Father is perfect. Because that quest is the right orientation for man, in line with God’s will. Again, the NC is not about forgiveness only. And while we can never achieve God’s infinite perfection, man has a perfection and telos proper to his nature, as all creation does, even though with man that perfection is obtained through a process, where our wills are involved-like a flower that participates in its own blossoming. That participation is a necessary component of man’s justice/righteousness, of who he was created to be.

And man posesses no "sin nature", as if something was added at the Fall. Rather fallen man lacks communion with the Trinity, a disordered state as anomalous as the sin it inevitably fosters.
Adam was created with freedom. God gave him 1 prohibition. Adam was free to obey that prohibition or rebel against that prohibition and eat. Adam chose to eat.
Yes, he did so, alright.
Huh? Are you suggesting that God was "missing in him"? Absurd.
Yes, missing. While we can't even live and move and have our being (Acts 17:28) apart from God, fallen man is nonetheless apart from God, which is exactly why Jesus tells us, "Apart from Me you can do nothing." John 5:15. And yet, we don't even have to believe in His existence, let alone his goodness, mercy, and love. And that lack of faith, from the lack of the “knowledge of God" that all men now experience from birth, means that man is lost, dead, sick. Yes, God is very much missing in us, and in our world. Adam opted to “depart” from God so to speak, and we all inherit that same separation now.
Rom 2:14,15 tells us that God created humanity with a conscience. iow, "the law written on their hearts". Paul was comparing/contrasting Jews, who had the Law and by that knew what was right from wrong, and Gentiles, who didn't have the Law but had "the law written on their hearts". That's the conscience. By which even Gentiles (rest of the human race) knows right from wrong.
Yes, man has a conscience, the voice of God in himself, aka the "natural law", the law written on his heart. But Adam was the first to ignore and deny that voice, to overide it, and that conscience is dimmed, corrupted, and often suspected, doubted, and overriden as a matter of course now in fallen man, because the breach with God had been made. As Augustine said regarding the Law, "God wrote on tablets of stone that which man failed to read in his heart."

Each human must come to see the error in this position, with the help of experience in a world where sin/evil reign due to freedom from God's direct moral control, ignorant of and unsubjugated to Him, combined with the grace and revelation that He gives to draw us into the light of the truth and away from that darkness and ignorance. Until we know God we're truly lost, not even knowing where we came from, if anywhere, what we're here for, if for anything, and where we're going, if anywhere. God is our true home.
I know you're only trying to cheapen the idea of eternal security, but Jesus clearly taught it from John 5:24 and John 10:28. Like it or not.

Once given eternal life, the recipient shall never perish. That is the teaching of Jesus.
Jesus also taught that we must obey the commandments to gain eternal life and Paul instructed that we must do good and put to death the deeds of the flesh in order to live. And this in no way conflicts with John 5:24 or John 10:28 because Jesus, John, James, Paul, et al knew that with the New Covenant man was still obligated to be personally righteous but that this was now possible under that covenant, by our being with God, under grace, living by the Spirit, having been justified-made just-by faith. The difference that faith makes is that now we depend on God for our righteousness, not on ourselves. To put it another way, faith does not stand alone as the definition of righteousness for man, rather it places man in union with that righteousness, with God, a just state of being in and of itself. To the extent that we remain in that union, evidenced by how we live, we have eternal life. We can die just as easily as we’ve rose to newness of life, however, by returning to our old life which means, regardless off any profession of faith, that we’ve separated ourselves again from that vital union that man was made for. Talk is cheap, while love acts, for the good of others and the glory of God, by its nature. Again, faith, hope, and love are all gifts of God, and daily choices for us.

“…if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.” 1 Cor 13:2

“Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing.” Augustine

The New Covenant is about who we are, who we become, on the inside, not just about what we believe.
 
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fhansen

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Yep. That's just what you are trying to do.
A bit hard to cheapen an already faulty concept.
Of course none of know with certainty who else's name is there. But consider what John wrote:

1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
The problem then is that everyone who's heard those words, whether at the time they were written or at any point later down through the centuries and applied them to themselves was/is necesarily saved. And I highly doubt that's true as, for one thing, Scripture tells us that not all who thimk they're saved will be saved.
It seems you don't really know what trust means then. I AM 100% certain of what I believe, because I have quoted verses that SAY what I believe. Unlike yourself.
Of course none of know with certainty who else's name is there. But consider what John wrote:

1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

I HAVE certainty that my name is in the book of life. I DO believe in the name of the Son of God, so I KNOW that I HAVE eternal life.

Why aren't you so certain?
He's perfectly trustworthy and true; we're the wildcard in it all. The human will, from Eden to heaven, is continously involved. And that's exactly why there are so many warnings, admonitions, encouragements, exhortations, etc, for believers to strive, be vigilant, persevere, be holy, be perfect, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, refrain from sin, wash one's robes, endure to the end, remain in Christ, with eternal life at stake.
There you go again. Trying to make it all about perseverance. It isn't. It's all about receiving eternal life. You just don't believe what Jesus said in John 10:28.
Well... no, I never made it all about perseverance, but perseverance certainly is a necessity according to Scripture.
You have a problematic obsession with lifestyle. It's getting in the way of understanding Scripture.

Lifestyle is the issue for God's blessings and eternal reward. It is NOT about salvation.

If you aren't willing to accept that, your mind is simply closed to the truth of the Bible.
To be honest I tire of the stubborness of those who refuse to accept Christianity as it was broadly understood, consostent with the bible, throughout the Christian world for centuries. Do you think an unjust "lifestyle" could never keep one from heaven, from seeing God? Scripture tells us it will. Anything else is quite the novel, corrupted gospel. Jesus came not only to forgive sin, but to take it away, to purify us of it. So that we may finally 'go, and sin no more'. Anyway, righteuosness is not my obsession only; it's God's because sin/unrighteousness is exactly what killed man to begin with, separating him from his Creator. God loves man too much to want him to remain in his sins. We're either with Him, and walking in His ways, or we're still apart from Him-or turned back and left Him all over again.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Former believers exist. You seem to want to deny that fact.
I've never done that. And you know it if you've been reading my posts.

They are never said to have eternal life.
Jesus was clear. John 5:24 tells us that believers have eternal life. Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28. How is that not clear?

[QUOE] You seem to want to ignore that fact.[/QUOTE]
I would suggest you seem to want tognore what Jesus said in John 10:28.

Who did Jesus promise eternal life to? Believers, as you admitted.
Actually, He GIVES eternal life to believers. And from THAT POINT ON, He said they shall never perish.

The promise is never perishing for those who possess eternal life.

There's no other options available than former believers don't possess eternal life.
Once Jesus gives eternal life, the promise is IN FORCE: recipients shall never perish.

Lifestyle has NO BEARING on salvation.

IF there is a verse that unambiguously says that salvation or eternal life can be lost, you'd have a point. But there are no such verses. Or I would have been flooded with them by now.
 
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