Nero the beast poll

Jamdoc, I never said that God did not have a better plan than this. He does. The New Heavens and the New Earth were never intended to be the "period" on the end of the sentence; only the next incremental step on God's timetable for eventually purging the universe of all evil. God is ALWAYS doing one better than the last time. As impatient humanity, we want to see things zapped into perfection instantly, but that is not how God functions.

You have not addressed a single one of the 5 things listed above that cannot possibly be part of the eternal state. They are not the final stage of an idyllic utopia, but they are all IMPROVEMENTS on the Old Covenant state of things that was in place in this world before the New Covenant reality, which we are currently living in.

You are missing the symbolism of the "clean" (lamb and bullock) versus the "unclean" animals (wolf and lion) all feeding together in amity on the same sustenance in Isaiah 65:25. This is the present unified "One New Man" creation of the Jew and Gentile groups which were formerly divided from each other - the "unclean" animals representing the Gentile nations of the world which were united when God tore down the middle wall of partition between them and the Jews. It's just another way of showing Peter's thrice-repeated vision of the "unclean" animals having been cleansed by God.

3 Resurrections said:

Jamdoc, I never said that God did not have a better plan than this. He does. The New Heavens and the New Earth were never intended to be the "period" on the end of the sentence; only the next incremental step on God's timetable for eventually purging the universe of all evil. God is ALWAYS doing one better than the last time. As impatient humanity, we want to see things zapped into perfection instantly, but that is not how God functions.

You have not addressed a single one of the 5 things listed above that cannot possibly be part of the eternal state. They are not the final stage of an idyllic utopia, but they are all IMPROVEMENTS on the Old Covenant state of things that was in place in this world before the New Covenant reality, which we are currently living in.

You are missing the symbolism of the "clean" (lamb and bullock) versus the "unclean" animals (wolf and lion) all feeding together in amity on the same sustenance in Isaiah 65:25. This is the present unified "One New Man" creation of the Jew and Gentile groups which were formerly divided from each other - the "unclean" animals representing the Gentile nations of the world which were united when God tore down the middle wall of partition between them and the Jews. It's just another way of showing Peter's thrice-repeated vision of the "unclean" animals having been cleansed by God.

Click to expand...

This is not the new earth.
you're using Isaiah to defend your point and I'm also referring to Isaiah, the swords into ploughshares and wolf with the lamb, that's Isaiah 65 too.
The world that Isaiah described, is not the current world, yet you're claiming it is, cherrypicking certain details and making the claim that that's reality, but neglecting other details that absolutely do not match.

How am I "neglecting" or "cherry-picking" anything? I've gone down the entire prophecy of the description of the New Heavens and the New Earth conditions, and they INCLUDE death, childbirth, building houses, planting crops and harvesting, the presence of sinners, prayer requests to God, and a unity of fellowship between Jews and Gentiles, which is what the symbolism of the clean animals dwelling with the unclean represents. The "swords into ploughshares" bit is not found in this Isaiah 65 description of the New Heavens and the New Earth - that's in Isaiah 2:4's context.

How do YOU explain the birth of children taking place in this New Heavens and New Earth? And the death of the righteous, even with extended lifetimes? And the continued presence of sinners? These terms CANNOT be describing the afterlife in the eternal state. There will be no presence of sinners anymore at that point; no physical death anymore, and no sexual relations taking place in that realm (Alas to blight the hopes of those expecting a cluster of virgins to be at their disposal.)

Jamdoc said:

the swords into ploughshares and wolf with the lamb, that's Isaiah 65 too.
The world that Isaiah described, is not the current world,

Click to expand...

Matthew 10:16 tells us who those very wolves and sheep are.
“Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves."

But, just in case, here's some "current world" fulfillments:


10 Peaceful Items Made Out Of Deadly Weapons - Listverse

parousia70 said:

Matthew 10:16 tells us who those very wolves and sheep are.
“Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves."

But, just in case, here's some "current world" fulfillments:

10 Peaceful Items Made Out Of Deadly Weapons - Listverse

Click to expand...

That's not what Isaiah meant, and THOSE wolves and sheep don't live together in peace really, Jesus was warning about how those wolves were going to be dangerous to those sheep, and Isaiah was talking about how they were going to dwell in peace and the wolf wouldn't be a danger to the sheep, and that Lions would eat straw like the ox (all animals reverting to being vegan I guess, not exactly something I look forward to, liking meat myself but..)

Rare occurrences as those "odd couples" you posted in the video are not really the state of the natural world normally. In the New Earth they will be.

Jamdoc said:

That's not what Isaiah meant, and THOSE wolves and sheep don't live together in peace really, Jesus was warning about how those wolves were going to be dangerous to those sheep, and Isaiah was talking about how they were going to dwell in peace and the wolf wouldn't be a danger to the sheep, and that Lions would eat straw like the ox (all animals reverting to being vegan I guess, not exactly something I look forward to, liking meat myself but..)

Click to expand...

Rather, its the same. The Prophets and Jesus spoke the same language. They did not have polar opposite meanigns for the same language.

• 
  Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

The little child leading them simply is referring to the ruling nature of Christians over the world. The passage also speaks of the little child in proximity to the snake:

• 
  Isaiah 11:7-8 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. {8} And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

All the beasts represented in Isaiah 11 are referring to the uniting of the Jews and the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, and that in Christ Jesus there is no difference. We are all one in the body of Christ.

The fulfillment of Isaiah 11 is indeed found testified in Romans 15:

• 
  Romans 15:8-12 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: {9} And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. {10} And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. {11} And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. {12} And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

It says that Jesus Christ was a minister...to confirm the promises made unto the fathers. Luke says the same thing:

• 
  Luke 1:68-75 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, {69} And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; {70} As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: {71} That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; {72} to perform the mercy promised unto our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; {73} The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, {74} That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, {75} In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

Paul in Romans then proceeds to show several promises made to the fathers. One of these promises comes from Isaiah 11:

• 
  Romans 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

Both of these elements (the Root of Jesse and the Gentiles trusting in Him) are found in Isaiah. But what is interesting is that one of the elements is found in Isaiah 11:1:

• 
  Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

The other element is found in verse 10:

• 
  Isaiah 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

This is very interesting because Paul says both are fulfilled, and were fulfilled beginning in the 1st century, (in that Day) through faith in Jesus Christ. Therefore all the elements in Isaiah 11:2-9 would also need to be fulfilled if vv.1 and 10 are today fulfilled in Christ. This is the only interpretation that is hermeneutically, Biblicallly, historically, grammatically, and contextualy consistent.

Rare occurrences as those "odd couples" you posted in the video are not really the state of the natural world normally. In the New Earth they will be.

Click to expand...

That's becasue the TRUE Fulfillment is found in the human relationships above, and not in the animal Kingdom.

Fear not, you will still get to enjoy that Steak

parousia70 said:

Rather, its the same. The Prophets and Jesus spoke the same language. They did not have polar opposite meanigns for the same language.

• 
  Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

The little child leading them simply is referring to the ruling nature of Christians over the world. The passage also speaks of the little child in proximity to the snake:

• 
  Isaiah 11:7-8 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. {8} And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

All the beasts represented in Isaiah 11 are referring to the uniting of the Jews and the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, and that in Christ Jesus there is no difference. We are all one in the body of Christ.

The fulfillment of Isaiah 11 is indeed found testified in Romans 15:

• 
  Romans 15:8-12 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: {9} And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. {10} And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. {11} And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. {12} And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

It says that Jesus Christ was a minister...to confirm the promises made unto the fathers. Luke says the same thing:

• 
  Luke 1:68-75 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, {69} And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; {70} As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: {71} That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; {72} to perform the mercy promised unto our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; {73} The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, {74} That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, {75} In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

Paul in Romans then proceeds to show several promises made to the fathers. One of these promises comes from Isaiah 11:

• 
  Romans 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

Both of these elements (the Root of Jesse and the Gentiles trusting in Him) are found in Isaiah. But what is interesting is that one of the elements is found in Isaiah 11:1:

• 
  Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

The other element is found in verse 10:

• 
  Isaiah 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

This is very interesting because Paul says both are fulfilled, and were fulfilled beginning in the 1st century, (in that Day) through faith in Jesus Christ. Therefore all the elements in Isaiah 11:2-9 would also need to be fulfilled if vv.1 and 10 are today fulfilled in Christ. This is the only interpretation that is hermeneutically, Biblicallly, historically, grammatically, and contextualy consistent.



That's becasue the TRUE Fulfillment is found in the human relationships above, and not in the animal Kingdom.

Fear not, you will still get to enjoy that Steak

Click to expand...

Great, so I have nothing to look forward to as a cripple except death.

Outstanding
your god is so gracious as to fulfill his promise of a new world and new resurrected body as a lifetime of being a cripple.
if I believed in your god I'd probably suicide.

3 Resurrections said:

Jamdoc, I never said that God did not have a better plan than this. He does. The New Heavens and the New Earth were never intended to be the "period" on the end of the sentence; only the next incremental step on God's timetable for eventually purging the universe of all evil. God is ALWAYS doing one better than the last time. As impatient humanity, we want to see things zapped into perfection instantly, but that is not how God functions.

You have not addressed a single one of the 5 things listed above that cannot possibly be part of the eternal state. They are not the final stage of an idyllic utopia, but they are all IMPROVEMENTS on the Old Covenant state of things that was in place in this world before the New Covenant reality, which we are currently living in.

You are missing the symbolism of the "clean" (lamb and bullock) versus the "unclean" animals (wolf and lion) all feeding together in amity on the same sustenance in Isaiah 65:25. This is the present unified "One New Man" creation of the Jew and Gentile groups which were formerly divided from each other - the "unclean" animals representing the Gentile nations of the world which were united when God tore down the middle wall of partition between them and the Jews. It's just another way of showing Peter's thrice-repeated vision of the "unclean" animals having been cleansed by God.

Click to expand...

The universe?

The earth is the universe. It will be totaly purged at the Second Coming.

Jamdoc said:

Great, so I have nothing to look forward to as a cripple except death.

Outstanding
your god is so gracious as to fulfill his promise of a new world and new resurrected body as a lifetime of being a cripple.
if I believed in your god I'd probably suicide.

Click to expand...

Jesus’ resurrected Body was riddled with wounds.
What makes you think your resurrected body will be in superior condition to His?
Do You deserve something he didn’t?
He bore the sin of the world on His body.
Did you?

And, in your view, if you die before the resurrection, are your going to be mad at God about that too?
All he gave you in this life was life “as a cripple, then death” …. Didn’t even heal your body while you were alive? Will you be Mad that He waited until after you were dead before he resurrected you?

What about all those in your condition who have already died?
Did God fail them too?

I’m sorry for your condition in this life but your bitterness about it is misdirected when directed at me friend. We all have our own crosses to bear. And you have no clue of mine.

And why not look forward to shedding your earthly tent? For when you do, you have a house in Heaven made by God, to dwell in, in His Presence, forever. (2 Corinthians 5:1)
No cripples there., (And I’m pretty sure they don’t use that word there anyway, just like most of us here don’t use it anymore either)
That’s what the resurrection of the dead is friend, and it should be eagerly anticipated.
How much more glorious an outcome do you require?
I’m sure if you wanted to watch a lion snuggle with a gazelle at that time, God could probably make that happen for you, if that is your ultimate measure of true glory in The victory of Christ Jesus, and nothing else will do.

parousia70 said:

Jesus’ resurrected Body was riddled with wounds.
What make you think your resurrected body will be in superior condition to His?
Do You deserve something he didn’t?

Click to expand...

It'd be pointless to be resurrected as a cripple I guess I'd just keep trying to die over and over again.

And, in your view, if you die before the resurrection, are your going to be mad at God about that too?
All he gave you in this life was life “as a cripple, then death” …. Didn’t even heal your body while you were alive? Will you be Mad that He waited until after you were dead before he resurrected you?

Click to expand...

No, I'm okay to wait, but the way Paul talks about the Resurrection body is in a state that I wouldn't be crippled anymore.

I’m sorry for your condition in the life but your bitterness about it is misdirected when directed at me friend.

Click to expand...

It's directed at you because you're teaching a god that would leave me with no hope, at all.

And why not look forward to shedding your earthly tent? For when you do you have a house in Heaven made by God, to dwell in, in His Presence, forever.
No cripples there., (And I’m pretty sure they don’t use that word there anyway, just like most of us here don’t use it anymore either)
That’s what the resurrection of the dead is friend, and it should be eagerly anticipated.
How much more glorious an outcome do you require?
I’m sure if you wanted to watch a lion snuggle with a gazelle at that time, God could probably make that happen for you, if that is your ultimate measure of true glory in The victory of a Christ, and nothing else will do.

Click to expand...

Not biblical, the bible teaches a physical resurrection.

Timtofly said:

The universe?

The earth is the universe. It will be totaly purged at the Second Coming.

Click to expand...

I deliberately used the word "universe", because we have no way of knowing where the souls of the wicked dead are at this moment. When Christ next returns, the souls of the wicked will be judged, and then destroyed. No perpetual torment throughout eternity has been decreed for them, because that would allow evil to still exist in God's created universe. We are supposed to fear God, who is able to destroy the wicked both spirit, soul, and body, so that they perish (Luke 12:5). The spirit and soul of the wicked when in the presence of God's utter holiness without the protective covering of Christ's righteousness causes them to perish. When the last stage of this process has finally happened, God's created universe will have been completely purged of all evil.

Jamdoc said:

Not biblical, the bible teaches a physical resurrection.

Click to expand...

YES, it most certainly does. At THREE group resurrection events, no less.

parousia70 said:

Jesus’ resurrected Body was riddled with wounds.
What makes you think your resurrected body will be in superior condition to His?

Click to expand...

Parousia70, that was only ONE form which Christ adopted after His resurrection. We know Christ's body was NOT resurrected with wound holes as He emerged from the tomb, because Hebrews 9:14 says that Christ "offered Himself WITHOUT SPOT to God". That was at Christ' first ascension the morning after His resurrection. To be accepted as our high priest in heaven, Christ could not have a single blemish whatever on His body, or he would have been disqualified to serve. Why do you think that scripture makes a point of saying that Christ was buried in a tomb "wherein never man was yet laid"? Even the contact of another dead man's bones would have rendered Christ's risen body unclean and unable to present Himself "without spot to God" at that first morning ascension. No high priest was ever allowed to touch a dead body for any reason, and the risen Christ was following these high priesthood requirements to the very letter of the law on our behalf.

The way this spotless condition seemingly contradicts Christ's wound holes displayed for the disciples to view can be explained easily. The resurrected human body can assume a "different form" (a "hetera morphe") as Christ did to the two travelers on the road to Emmaus (Mark 16:12). Christ "morphed" into another form so that they would not recognize him immediately as He was walking with them. But later, when He did want the disciples to recognize Him, He displayed the wound holes so that their faith would be confirmed that it was He Himself they were seeing and touching.

So, Jamdoc, you are correct to anticipate a spotless, renovated condition for your body in the resurrection. Apparently, you will be able to choose "different forms" at your discretion at that time, since this is what Christ did while in His resurrected state. And our bodies are to be changed so that they will be fashioned like unto His glorious body (Phil. 3:21).

Jamdoc said:

It'd be pointless to be resurrected as a cripple I guess I'd just keep trying to die over and over again.

Click to expand...

Don't worry, you wont be.

No, I'm okay to wait, but the way Paul talks about the Resurrection body is in a state that I wouldn't be crippled anymore.

Click to expand...

I agree

It's directed at you because you're teaching a god that would leave me with no hope, at all.

Click to expand...

The God I believe in and teach about will give you a new Body in the resurrection fashined unto the likeness of Christ's Glorified body.

I'm sorry if you find that Hopeless.

Not biblical, the bible teaches a physical resurrection.

Click to expand...

Chapter and Verse?

I believe what Paul Believes:

1 Corinthians 15:44
It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

You disagree with Paul?

3 Resurrections said:

Parousia70, that was only ONE form which Christ adopted after His resurrection. We know Christ's body was NOT resurrected with wound holes as He emerged from the tomb, because Hebrews 9:14 says that Christ "offered Himself WITHOUT SPOT to God". That was at Christ' first ascension the morning after His resurrection. To be accepted as our high priest in heaven, Christ could not have a single blemish whatever on His body, or he would have been disqualified to serve.

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I don't see how you can draw such an inference.

This NT teaching of Christ as the TRUE lamb without blemish is of course the Object of the entire OT Teaching about a Lamb offered without spot or Blemish.
BibleGateway - Keyword Search: lamb without blemish

And in each and EVERY instance, the blood of the lamb without blemish is sprinkled upon the altar (and accepted by God) AFTER the lamb without blemish has been slaughtered (which would necessarily render it "Blemished" in the slaughter, if we accept your premise)

Seems you have the cart before the Horse, Unless you can point to a scripture that teaches the Blood sprinkled upon the altar must come from an unblemished Lamb that likewise has no slaughter wounds In order for it to be accepted by God?
Where is that taught?

Clearly, and consistently, the unblemished lamb MUST be Slaughtered First before it's blood can be sprinkled upon the Altar, and the wounds received in the Slaughtering do absolutely nothing to render its unblemished status null and void, and you would have them do.

Parousia70, there's one point you are not mentioning (which I think you probably would agree with, but which you haven't brought up yet). Christ was not only the offering, but also the one who did the offering. He was both the sacrifice and the high priest that offered that sacrifice. BOTH had to be spotless.

The Lamb itself had to be blemish-free before it was slain and its blood sprinkled on the mercy seat.
ALSO, the high priest had to be ritually pure before he could perform those high priestly duties of sprinkling that blood on the mercy seat. If he was not, a backup high priest (a "sagan") had to take his place on the Day of Atonement.

Christ was blemish-free in BOTH aspects. Scripture goes to great lengths to assure us of Christ's absolute purity as our high priest on His resurrection-day ascension.

#1) No wine drunk before going into the holy places (Leviticus 10:9). Which is why Christ refused to drink the wine mingled with gall on the cross (Matthew 27:34).
#2) No tearing of the high priest's garments (Leviticus 21:10). Which is why scripture tells us that the soldiers cast lots for Christ's garments and kept them intact (John19:23-24).
#3) No contact with a dead body (Leviticus 21:11). Which is why Christ was laid in a new tomb, "wherein never was man yet laid" (John 19:41). It was also a tomb cut out of the rock, since stone vessels only were used when ritually pure water for purification was needed (as in the miracle of the water turned to wine).
#4) Also no contact with another person, either, before the high priest went alone into the holy of holies (Leviticus 16:17). Which is why Christ did not allow Mary to touch Him, just before He ascended to the Father that morning in John 20:17.
#5) No blemishes or broken bones of either the Lamb whose blood was to be offered or the high priest that was offering that sacrifice (Leviticus 21:17-23). Which was true of Christ, in that "not a bone of Him shall be broken" (Psalms 34:20, John 19:33-36).

I find it amazing that, even as a dead man, Christ was still obediently following the law about the high priesthood requirements to the letter, so that the process of insuring our salvation would be absolutely perfectly accomplished, with no doubt or question of its success.

parousia70 said:

Don't worry, you wont be.


I agree



The God I believe in and teach about will give you a new Body in the resurrection fashined unto the likeness of Christ's Glorified body.

I'm sorry if you find that Hopeless.



Chapter and Verse?

I believe what Paul Believes:

1 Corinthians 15:44
It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

You disagree with Paul?

Click to expand...

"spiritual body" doesn't mean disembodied spirit
it means body that is spiritually alive.

when you're thinking you just go to some ethereal spirit realm forever and don't believe in a physical resurrection and a new earth, what you're doing is falling into a trap of influence by Gnosticism, and Greek Philosophy influence.

as for chapter and verse?

Paul talks about it, Romans 8

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

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If you don't think creation is still groaning to this day waiting for its redemption, you haven't been paying attention.
Earthquake and volcanic eruption frequency alone (something that cannot be directly influenced by the actions of men) shows the groaning is intensifying.
It's almost like...
birth pangs.

You know, what our Lord said it'd be like before His return?
It's almost like
your entire eschatology that doesn't even fit in this forum is a lie.

3 Resurrections said:

I find it amazing that, even as a dead man, Christ was still obediently following the law about the high priesthood requirements to the letter, so that the process of insuring our salvation would be absolutely perfectly accomplished, with no doubt or question of its success.

Click to expand...

Now that is a truly beautiful and perfect thing. May the Lord God grant us that in life and in death we also exalt and glorify God in our bodies (Philippians 1:20).

3 Resurrections said:

The spirit and soul of the wicked when in the presence of God's utter holiness without the protective covering of Christ's righteousness causes them to perish. When the last stage of this process has finally happened, God's created universe will have been completely purged of all evil.

Click to expand...

The only thing physical about sin, was how it affected the plants as part of the curse. But there is nothing evil about current physical creation, as if evil needs to be expunged. It is sin nature, and sin nature alone. God can remove sin from reality just as easily as it happened when Adam disobeyed God. There was time on earth when there was no sin at all. No evil at all. So not sure why you think it takes a process, or that the Lake of Fire would continue to send out evil vibes?

Timtofly said:

The only thing physical about sin, was how it affected the plants as part of the curse. But there is nothing evil about current physical creation, as if evil needs to be expunged. It is sin nature, and sin nature alone.

Click to expand...

Sure, I agree that the dirt under our feet and this planet's resources in the physical creation have nothing inherently evil about them. God created them all "good and very good", and they are remarkably resilient, even if mankind has failed over the centuries in being a good steward of those resources. It truly is the sin nature that needs to be expunged from this planet, you're right about that. And God will do that very thing at the final resurrection when He returns again.

When I write about a "process" of removing evil from this world, I'm referring to God's plan of redemption, which took some time to develop until the incarnate Christ arrived, and in real time became the means of our salvation by His death and resurrection. Nothing that men or devils have done has even slightly altered or disturbed that plan. The growth of the kingdom of heaven is just as steadily productive as the growth of leaven in bread dough, because one cannot stop the work of the Holy Spirit in this world. At the culmination of all the ages, Christ will return again to purge human evil out of this world.

As for the "Lake of Fire", I believe it has been seriously misunderstood as to its purpose and duration. It is NOT Hell itself, because death and Hell (Hades - the grave) were thrown into it. God said long ago in Isaiah 31:9 that His "fire is in Zion, and His furnace in Jerusalem." That particular city was used as the "Furnace of fire" in Matthew 13:42, to burn up the "tares" at the end of the age (during the AD 70 period, which was Israel's "days of vengeance"). That "Lake of Fire" setting was also "prepared for the Devil and his angels", and they were destroyed utterly in the fire that God intended to consume the city down to its foundations.

God got rid of the evil demonic realm at that time, as prophesied, but that was not the end of evil on this planet, as we know. Even without the presence of Satan and his angels, humanity has a multitude of ways in which it has expressed its sin nature. So God is working toward yet another purging of evil in our future, to rid the planet He created of its remaining human evil at the close of fallen man's history.

3 Resurrections said:

Parousia70, there's one point you are not mentioning (which I think you probably would agree with, but which you haven't brought up yet). Christ was not only the offering, but also the one who did the offering. He was both the sacrifice and the high priest that offered that sacrifice. BOTH had to be spotless.

The Lamb itself had to be blemish-free before it was slain and its blood sprinkled on the mercy seat.
ALSO, the high priest had to be ritually pure before he could perform those high priestly duties of sprinkling that blood on the mercy seat. If he was not, a backup high priest (a "sagan") had to take his place on the Day of Atonement.

Christ was blemish-free in BOTH aspects. Scripture goes to great lengths to assure us of Christ's absolute purity as our high priest on His resurrection-day ascension.

#1) No wine drunk before going into the holy places (Leviticus 10:9). Which is why Christ refused to drink the wine mingled with gall on the cross (Matthew 27:34).
#2) No tearing of the high priest's garments (Leviticus 21:10). Which is why scripture tells us that the soldiers cast lots for Christ's garments and kept them intact (John19:23-24).
#3) No contact with a dead body (Leviticus 21:11). Which is why Christ was laid in a new tomb, "wherein never was man yet laid" (John 19:41). It was also a tomb cut out of the rock, since stone vessels only were used when ritually pure water for purification was needed (as in the miracle of the water turned to wine).
#4) Also no contact with another person, either, before the high priest went alone into the holy of holies (Leviticus 16:17). Which is why Christ did not allow Mary to touch Him, just before He ascended to the Father that morning in John 20:17.
#5) No blemishes or broken bones of either the Lamb whose blood was to be offered or the high priest that was offering that sacrifice (Leviticus 21:17-23). Which was true of Christ, in that "not a bone of Him shall be broken" (Psalms 34:20, John 19:33-36).

I find it amazing that, even as a dead man, Christ was still obediently following the law about the high priesthood requirements to the letter, so that the process of insuring our salvation would be absolutely perfectly accomplished, with no doubt or question of its success.

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And how was He, as the sacrifice, “blemish free” when they nailed Him to the Cross AFTER “Pilate took Jesus and had him flogged" John 19:1

I'm sure you remember, parousia70, that Pilate THREE TIMES testified to the Jews that he had found no fault in Christ (Luke 23:22). He even sent Him to Herod, and even Herod could find no fault in Christ. This was a fulfillment of the examination process that the sacrificial lamb underwent before it was offered as the Passover sacrifice back under the Old Covenant.

We know that Christ's flogging was part of God's prophetic plan, and that "it pleased the Lord to bruise Him", and "with His stripes we are healed". It mattered not that the hatred of the Jewish leadership made them urge Pilate to have Christ's flesh shredded in the scourging He was given. Whatever damage happened to the body of Christ before His death was healed in His resurrected state when His body was glorified that resurrection day. It will be the same for us as believers. Whatever the ravages of time, illness, and corruption have done to work their damage on our body's forms, they will be changed and altered into a glorified, perfected condition in the resurrected state. Just like Christ's, because we are called "joint-heirs" with Christ.