Steady the Ship

Jake Arsenal

Active Member
Mar 2, 2021
306
193
Celestial City
✟40,016.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Sorry, but we are to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's.

This my body is in fact God's - it doesn't belong to Caesar and it doesn't bear his mark (as did that coin to which Jesus referenced), it bears the seal of God.

Therefore - Caesar has NO PLACE telling me what to do with this, a living TEMPLE OF GOD.

It's something I'm happy to die for. You don't feel the same, and that's your choice. I don't have the ability to choose otherwise however. I will never submit this body to Caesar because it's not his property...

I'll obey any laws that don't try to take what is God's place alone or place me in sin, but this body doesn't belong to the government, and this is absolutely a hill I'm more than happy to die on...

I can generally think vaccines are a medical positive, but because Caesar has decided our bodies are his property to do with what he wills, I have the responsibility to make sure Caesar knows that's absolutely not the case.. it's in fact the temple of the living God, and as such, God's property alone.


You are right - a medical decision cannot effect salvation.
But this medical decision is deeply dividing believers.

You are right - the way this has been managed by Governments is pretty oppressive.
They are freaking out given that the economy is at stake...

I am inclined to think this whole episode will eventually blow over - new better vaccines will be developed - there are some promising ones in the pipeline already.

The UN are pushy because they think the future of mankind is in their hands...

What else can you expect from a Godless organisation leaning on worldly wisdom...

However this is not the final scene in the history of the world.

I was told that if I was vaccinated my salvation was in question.

Such alarmist rhetoric is pretty nuts.

Where does division and strife come from? (James 3&4)

Whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God.(Romans 14:22)

Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. (Romans 14:5)

Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. (Romans 14:13)

I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean/I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. (Romans 14:14)


If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died.(Romans 14:15)

Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification.
Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall.
(Romans 14:19-21)

So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves. (Romans 14:22)

But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin. (Romans 14:23)

James 4:11 Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?
 
Upvote 0

newwaytobehuman

Active Member
Sep 23, 2021
78
69
42
south west england
✟2,156.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Hey - keep a firm grip on the Wheel.

Life has storms and Covid is a big wave that we need to head straight into to be safe.

Get vaccinated - don't get distracted by conspiracies. God works through medical science for our safety.

Fear not.

Thank Him for safety.

The storm will pass.

Jesus is in control.


beautiful post

thank you
 
Upvote 0

Carl Emerson

Well-Known Member
Dec 18, 2017
14,667
9,977
78
Auckland
✟376,544.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I think it behooves believers to be "good Bereans" and go right to the source as often as possible, studying the hard data directly as much as possible and then going to trusted sources for clarification and explanation of the data they don't understand.

Given the amount of pseudo science flying around on social media, I am not so sure about this.

To expect each individual to 'peer review' science leads to more confusion.

It is time for the wagons to circle and the Body to kick into action so the collective sense of the mature can be heard... think Jerusalem council.
 
Upvote 0

aiki

Regular Member
Feb 16, 2007
10,874
4,348
Winnipeg
✟236,528.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Given the amount of pseudo science flying around on social media, I am not so sure about this.

To expect each individual to 'peer

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point. As I said, looking at actual research abstracts, especially at the findings that are offered in them, isn't as difficult as you may think. It is certainly, in my experience anyway, a very good way of cutting through all the political spin and pseudo-science that is swirling around these days to the hard facts of the matter. And I'm not urging "peer review", by the way; just the excluding of the pop-media "middle man" who is trying to tell us what to think about the data, or urging us to ignore the data entirely and just trust him (or her).

I'm not sure what would constitute "the mature," in your view, but I'm far more interested in the wisdom of God offered to us all in His word. We have no modern-day apostles of the NT sort and so can have only a shadowy, weak version of the Jerusalem council, but that is no worry to me, a possessor of the fully-sufficient word of God (2 Timothy 3:16-17) and one who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
 
Upvote 0

Carl Emerson

Well-Known Member
Dec 18, 2017
14,667
9,977
78
Auckland
✟376,544.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point. As I said, looking at actual research abstracts, especially at the findings that are offered in them, isn't as difficult as you may think. It is certainly, in my experience anyway, a very good way of cutting through all the political spin and pseudo-science that is swirling around these days to the hard facts of the matter. And I'm not urging "peer review", by the way; just the excluding of the pop-media "middle man" who is trying to tell us what to think about the data, or urging us to ignore the data entirely and just trust him (or her).

I'm not sure what would constitute "the mature," in your view, but I'm far more interested in the wisdom of God offered to us all in His word. We have no modern-day apostles of the NT sort and so can have only a shadowy, weak version of the Jerusalem council, but that is no worry to me, a possessor of the fully-sufficient word of God (2 Timothy 3:16-17) and one who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

I find the average mum with kids in lockdown is stressed and bamboozled but the "facts" being presented. We may have a university education and understand something of how to sift through the nonsense but many don't.

'Mature' includes having a good grasp on the Wisdom of the Word (it's not an 'either/or'). He will provide mature oversight if we ask for it. He has not left His Body leaderless - but there can be a difference between His choice and mans choice in this regard.
 
Upvote 0

aiki

Regular Member
Feb 16, 2007
10,874
4,348
Winnipeg
✟236,528.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
find the average mum with kids in lockdown is stressed and bamboozled but the "facts" being presented. We may have a university education and understand something of how to sift through the nonsense but many don't.

Yes, true. Modern education is in a very sorry state. But most of us can learn. Even when we're "old dogs." I greatly wish more churches taught basic logic and simple research methods to their people. How do they equip their people to "rightly divide" God's word? Shouldn't such equipping involve critical thinking and study skills and strategies? Perhaps, though, this would make the pastor less essential...

Mature' includes having a good grasp on the Wisdom of the Word (it's not an 'either/or

I agree.

He will provide mature oversight if we ask for it. He has not left His Body leaderless - but there can be a difference between His choice and mans choice in this regard.

Indeed.
 
Upvote 0

Jake Arsenal

Active Member
Mar 2, 2021
306
193
Celestial City
✟40,016.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Given the amount of pseudo science flying around on social media, I am not so sure about this.

To expect each individual to 'peer review' science leads to more confusion.

It is time for the wagons to circle and the Body to kick into action so the collective sense of the mature can be heard... think Jerusalem council.
Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point. As I said, looking at actual research abstracts, especially at the findings that are offered in them, isn't as difficult as you may think. It is certainly, in my experience anyway, a very good way of cutting through all the political spin and pseudo-science that is swirling around these days to the hard facts of the matter. And I'm not urging "peer review", by the way; just the excluding of the pop-media "middle man" who is trying to tell us what to think about the data, or urging us to ignore the data entirely and just trust him (or her).

I'm not sure what would constitute "the mature," in your view, but I'm far more interested in the wisdom of God offered to us all in His word. We have no modern-day apostles of the NT sort and so can have only a shadowy, weak version of the Jerusalem council, but that is no worry to me, a possessor of the fully-sufficient word of God (2 Timothy 3:16-17) and one who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
I find the average mum with kids in lockdown is stressed and bamboozled but the "facts" being presented. We may have a university education and understand something of how to sift through the nonsense but many don't.

'Mature' includes having a good grasp on the Wisdom of the Word (it's not an 'either/or'). He will provide mature oversight if we ask for it. He has not left His Body leaderless - but there can be a difference between His choice and mans choice in this regard.
Yes, true. Modern education is in a very sorry state. But most of us can learn. Even when we're "old dogs." I greatly wish more churches taught basic logic and simple research methods to their people. How do they equip their people to "rightly divide" God's word? Shouldn't such equipping involve critical thinking and study skills and strategies? Perhaps, though, this would make the pastor less essential...



I agree.



Indeed.

Most of the Apostles and early believers would be considered uneducated by modern standards, but this did not stop them from spreading the Gospel and performing God's will. Let us follow their example in humility.
Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.(1 Corinthians 3:18-20) Know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God . (James 4:4) Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.(James 5:9) And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.(James 5:15)
 
Upvote 0

aiki

Regular Member
Feb 16, 2007
10,874
4,348
Winnipeg
✟236,528.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Most of the Apostles and early believers would be considered uneducated by modern standards, but this did not stop them from spreading the Gospel and performing God's will. Let us follow their example in humility.

??? Are you suggesting that, in this day and age, a Christian should purposefully seek to remain uninformed, ignorant, primitive in their understanding of God's word? I sure hope not!
 
Upvote 0

Jake Arsenal

Active Member
Mar 2, 2021
306
193
Celestial City
✟40,016.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
??? Are you suggesting that, in this day and age, a Christian should purposefully seek to remain uninformed, ignorant, primitive in their understanding of God's word? I sure hope not!
I said precisely the opposite. Worldly knowledge is an unnecessary hindrance to the growth of many believers. Literacy should take supremacy in every Christian's education for the sole purpose of allowing the Christian to personally learn the Scriptures.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

aiki

Regular Member
Feb 16, 2007
10,874
4,348
Winnipeg
✟236,528.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I said precisely the opposite. Worldly knowledge is an unnecessary hindrance to the growth of many believers. Literacy should take supremacy in every Christian's education for the sole purpose of allowing the Christian to personally learn the Scriptures.

Okay. What do you mean by "worldly knowledge"? I ask because I've encountered believers who think they can abandon entirely any sort of sensible interpretive hermeneutic because it "comes from the World" and is somehow not "spiritual." I'm not saying this is what you're proposing, however.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Jake Arsenal

Active Member
Mar 2, 2021
306
193
Celestial City
✟40,016.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Okay. What do you mean by "worldly knowledge"? I ask because I've encountered believers who think they can abandon entirely any sort of sensible interpretive hermeneutic because it "comes from the World" and is somehow not "spiritual." I'm not saying this is what you're proposing, however.
I am not really talking about being spiritual, although worshiping in spirit and in truth is absolutely necessary.(John 4:24) When I say worldly knowledge, I specifically mean all knowledge derived from anywhere outside of Scripture. While education is not a bad thing in of itself, dependence on any of it over the knowledge imparted by Scripture, is clearly a stumbling block leading to the very division which you were discussing.This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.(James 3:15) James clearly explained that results are the test of everything. If something results in divisions and strife, it not from God and the truth is not in it.

Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil.(Proverbs 3:5-6)

Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.(1 Corinthians 3:18-20) Know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God . (James 4:4) Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.(James 5:9) And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.(James 5:15)
 
Upvote 0

Carl Emerson

Well-Known Member
Dec 18, 2017
14,667
9,977
78
Auckland
✟376,544.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Jake Arsenal

If God only spoke through scripture I would agree with you.

However, He has sanctified the wholesome pursuit of the knowledge of His universe including how our marvellous bodies work.

If I wanted to know whether to take a vaccination, I would listen to the medical experts, dialogue with the spiritually mature, make a choice, give it to Him, and pray for the peace
that passes all understanding by way of confirmation.

This may or may not involve hearing His specific guidance through scripture, but the choice would never conflict with what He has already said in the Word.

His living word to us personally is far more broad than what we read in the Scripture, but at the same time understanding the Word is critical in the process of deciding what is a Godly choice.
 
Upvote 0

Jake Arsenal

Active Member
Mar 2, 2021
306
193
Celestial City
✟40,016.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Jake Arsenal

If God only spoke through scripture I would agree with you.

However, He has sanctified the wholesome pursuit of the knowledge of His universe including how our marvellous bodies work.

If I wanted to know whether to take a vaccination, I would listen to the medical experts, dialogue with the spiritually mature, make a choice, give it to Him, and pray for the peace
that passes all understanding by way of confirmation.

This may or may not involve hearing His specific guidance through scripture, but the choice would never conflict with what He has already said in the Word.

His living word to us personally is far more broad than what we read in the Scripture, but at the same time understanding the Word is critical in the process of deciding what is a Godly choice.

To expect each individual to 'peer review' science leads to more confusion.

It is time for the wagons to circle and the Body to kick into action so the collective sense of the mature can be heard... think Jerusalem council.
 
Upvote 0