saved by grace or by works

It looks like there's two different issues presented that you would like help with, the first being whether Jesus truly is the Son of God.

There were many prophets in the Old Testament times who performed mighty miracles and spoke with authority, just like Jesus did. But they all pointed to a future Messiah that would one day show up in Israel. Jesus fulfilled all of those prophecies, and many started pickup up on this while He was present. Jesus ended up doing something that no prophet dared do, he forgave sins. He also always gave glory to His Heavenly Father, and taught those who repented to see Him as their Heavenly Father as well. He was no ordinary prophet.

In John 5:18, it's very clear that Jesus was stating He was the Son of God. He must have either been lying, crazy or telling the truth, as someone once put it. But look at all the powerful testimonies many Christians have, myself included, demonstrating Jesus' saving power after putting their faith in Him. Seems to me He was telling the truth of His Sonship to the Father.

Regarding the other issue of salvation by grace or works, it helps to fully understand the condition all humans are in. In some cases, verses in the Bible seem to mention salvation by faith apart from works, while others seem to mention salvation by works. These verses don't contradict, you just have to examine in proper context what they are emphasizing.

The problem with our sinful condition is that we are fallen, and under judgment to spend eternity enduring the wrath of God. He is perfectly just, and we have broken His laws and commands; He has to punish us with His holy wrath because of this. No amount of good works can make up for us breaking His laws; God would be unjust if He forgave us rather than issuing punishment.

This is where faith comes in - we have faith that Jesus endured the wrath of God in our place, accepting our punishment. When we realize what Jesus truly did for us, good works naturally flow as a result. The works mentioned in James 2:18 are in regards to the authenticity of someone's faith. If you have faith it's going to rain later that afternoon, you'll act by packing an unbrella. Same principle.

Scripture also mentions that Abraham believed a revelation from God, and it was accounted to Him as righteousness. The work Abraham did in order to be saved was to simply believe what God had told him (Galatians 3:6). John 6:29 reinforces this by stating the work God requires from us onto salvation is simply to believe the Gospel.

Rigatoni said:

John 6:29 reinforces this by stating the work God requires from us onto salvation is simply to believe the Gospel.

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The Gospel of the Kingdom is all of Matthew and John and the Revelation... including John 14:15-17, and summed up in John 12:44-50 And I know that His Commandment is Life Everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.

Ligurian said:

The Gospel of the Kingdom is all of Matthew and John and the Revelation... including John 14:15-17, and summed up in John 12:44-50 And I know that His Commandment is Life Everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.

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The gospel of the kingdom is the Bible, Genesis to Revelation.

jameshjr said:

So I went for a walk with someone I know from my church for the first time. We eventually got around to talking about Jesus.


He asked me how i came to the faith, and I informed him that i had spent most of my life looking for truth and that i finally came to christianity and found it to be true.


He then went on to say that all religions teach the same thing : do good.


I said, is that not where Christianity is different: in that we are saved by grace through faith. To which i cannot remember his response.


More was said with which i had an issue, and i soon asked him if he thought Jesus is the son of God, to which he replied: He was born of the spirit.


Now this has thrown me through a loop. I am new to the faith (around 18 months) and he has been going to church a long time.


I figured that everyone who went to church believed that Jesus was the son of God and believed in salvation through faith, and not salvation through works.


I have thought about this and read Matthew's gospel; but only the red letter (what Jesus said).


I found one passage where Jesus mentioned his sacrifice for the remission of sins: Matthew 26:28. Which could be interpreted many ways based upon that one line of text.


To counter the idea of being saved by grace through faith is the concluding text of Matthew 28:18-20. Which i think could be argued that Jesus wants us to do as he taught (leaning more towards deeds over grace through faith).


I know that Paul further went into the theme of salvation through grace (why should i trust Pauls teaching), but if we were to go purely off of just Marks gospel, then could it not fairly be argued that Jesus teaches that we are saved by works rather than grace just like every other religion?


I'd really like some help with this, as my faith idea of my faith has been shaken.


P.s. i do beleive that Jesus is the son of God and has clear authority given to him from the Father, and therefore whatever he taught, i believe is what i should (try to) follow, and would like to clarify exactly what that is.

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If you are drawn (Matthew 5:3-10) to the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven, you are hearing Jesus speaking to His sheep through the words recorded by His Galilean Apostles, for whom Jesus prays the Father in John 17. The Laws of the Kingdom are found in the Sermon on the Mount, in Matthew 5:17-20--Matthew 7:28-29.

Galatians 2:7-9 means Galatians 3:5 versus John 14:15-17, etc.

jameshjr said:

i had to watch this twice, but i think i understand what he is saying: There are two gospels: one for the Jews and one for the gentiles which was given to paul but not referenced in the scripture.

If this is true then the question resolves again to the extent to which i/ we can trust Paul.

Paul is in the bible and therefore shouldn't his word be as true as moses's is/ was?

i only doubt because, as i said,my faith has been shaken and i have seen a few comments about the subject (via google) stating that paul was kicked in the head by a donkey and then corrupted by satan to teach the doctrine of salvation in order to corrupt believers and it got to me.

i will pray over this and hopefully reach peace over the subject once my mind is settled.

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The video is not orthodox Christianity, it is heresy.

You had to watch it twice because it is so contrary to the NT teaching of the apostles.

There is much popular false teaching out there now--supported with erroneous interpretation of prophecy that is in contradiction to NT apostolic teaching--that God has two plans. . .one for the church and one for the Jews, and they are not the same plan.
This teaching is exceptionally dangerous in that it relegates the church, the bride and body of Christ, which is God's whole plan of redemption in Christ, to a second-hand role in history, some even calling God's plan in the church--the bride of Christ, simply a "parenthesis" in history.

Believe nothing about Paul that is not in agreement with
Galatians 1:11-12 - he received his gospel from no man, but only by revelation personally from Jesus Christ,

2 Corinthians 12:1-8 - he was caught up to the third heaven (paradise), where he heard things that man is not permitted to speak. So exceedingly great were his revelations that God gave him a thorn in his flesh to keep him from becoming conceited because of them.

I am reminding you of this because the meaning of Christ's death is not presented in the gospels by Christ because it had not yet occurred and they had no basis for understanding. They could hardly understand that he had to die.

It is to Paul that Jesus gave his full revelation regarding
his atoning sacrifice (Romans 3:25),
salvation by faith not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9),
righteousness of justification apart from works (Romans 4:5, Romans 3:21, Romans 3:28).
Do not let anyone separate Paul from Jesus' gospel, as though they are not exactly the same. . .remember, Paul learned it from Jesus himself.
There is only one gospel, let no one tell you there are two, or more.

There are "Judaizers" out there who hate Paul and his teachings, passing themselves off as NT Christians, given to trying to unseat Paul and his teachings, and if not to unseat him, then to make his teachings irrelevant to some of God's NT people. Stay away from them!

You were given a good platform for your faith. But you must study the Scriptures and grow in it, where you will see that while we are not saved by the works of faith (for the simple reason there was no faith before faith), after salvation we are sanctified, made holy, by the works of faith, which is important, because "Without holiness, no one will see the Lord." (Hebrews 12:14)

com7fy8 said:

"'For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for the remission of sins.'" (Matthew 26:28)

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What version is that? polus is missing in your verse... meaning many.

Matthew 26:28 For this is My blood of the New Covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.KJV
Matthew 22:12-14 For many are called, but few chosen. Revelation 17:12-14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.

Matthew 7:24-27 Therefore whosoever heareth these words of Mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon the rock: Matthew 16:16-18 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Matthew 11:28-30 Come unto Me, all that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 30 For My yoke [is] easy, and My burden is light. Matthew 23:3-5 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 5 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay [them] on men's shoulders; but they [themselves] will not move them with one of their fingers.

Matthew 13:37-38 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the Kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one]; John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love Me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of Myself, but He sent Me. John 18:37 To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world: that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth My voice. John 12:44-50 And I know that His Commandment is Life Everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak. Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness...
Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the Commandments of God, and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ. John 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do His Commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.KJV

Matthew 24:14 And this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

jameshjr said:

i had to watch this twice, but i think i understand what he is saying: There are two gospels: one for the Jews and one for the gentiles which was given to paul but not referenced in the scripture.

If this is true then the question resolves again to the extent to which i/ we can trust Paul.

Paul is in the bible and therefore shouldn't his word be as true as moses's is/ was?

i only doubt because, as i said,my faith has been shaken and i have seen a few comments about the subject (via google) stating that paul was kicked in the head by a donkey and then corrupted by satan to teach the doctrine of salvation in order to corrupt believers and it got to me.

i will pray over this and hopefully reach peace over the subject once my mind is settled.

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Galatians 2:7-9 says there are two gospels. Paulinians don't see it that way. They already have most of the New Testament... but they want it all?... so they rob Peter to pay Paul on a fairly regular basis. And since the only place heresy shows up is in Paul's gospel... they try to make us care what the gentile gospel says... when it's not even written to the people drawn to the Law of God. I don't know about you, but I don't read other people's mail and act like those letters were written to me. If they'd leave the Gospel of the Kingdom alone and stop using Paul to interpret it... they'd never hear another peep out of me. But Keeping Jesus' Commandments means watching, preserving, AND doing what He tells His Lost Sheep to do.

So... Galatians 1:6 and Galatians 3:2-5 are complaining about another gospel.
John 14:15-17 exactly fits the description of this other gospel... not surprising, since John taught in Asia/Lydia and Peter taught in Galatia, Pontus, etc. Philippians is doing its best to disinherit the circumcision, point blank. And some other letter is calling the Galilean Apostles ministers of righteousness working for Satan disguised as an angel of light. Are the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel supposed to grin and bear it? Jesus didn't much like being robbed of His inheritance, either, in Matthew 21:33-46.

pescador said:

The gospel of the kingdom is the Bible, Genesis to Revelation.

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Do you Keep Jesus' Commandments? If not, you're not reading from the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Clare73 said:

The vido is not orthodox Christianity, it is heresy.

You had to watch it twice because it is so contrary to the NT teaching of the apostles.

There is much popular false teaching out there now--supported with erroneous interpretation of prophecy that is in contradiction to NT apostolic teaching--that God has two plans. . .one for the church and one for the Jews, and they are not the same plan.
This teaching is exceptionally dangerous in that it relegates the church, the bride and body of Christ, which is God's whole plan of redemption in Christ, to a second-hand role in history, some even calling God's plan in the church--the bride of Christ, simply a "parenthesis" in history.

Believe nothing about Paul that is not in agreement with
Galatians 1:11-12 - he received his gospel from no man, but only by revelation personally from Jesus Christ,

2 Corinthians 12:1-8 - he was caught up to the third heaven (paradise), where he heard things that man is not permitted to speak. So exceedingly great were his revelations that God gave him a thorn in his flesh to keep him from becoming conceited because of them.

I am reminding you of this because the meaning of Christ's death is not presented in the gospels by Christ because it had not yet occurred and they had no basis for understanding. They could hardly understand that he had to die.

It is to Paul that Jesus gave his full revelation regarding
his atoning sacrifice (Romans 3:25),
salvation by faith not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9),
righteousness of justification apart from works (Romans 4:5, Romans 3:21, Romans 3:28).
Do not let anyone separate Paul from Jesus' gospel, as though they are not exactly the same. . .remember, Paul learned it from Jesus himself.
There is only one gospel, let no one tell you there are two, or more.

There are "Judaizers" out there who hate Paul and his teachings, passing themselves off as NT Christians, given to trying to unseat Paul and his teachings, and if not to unseat him, then to make his teachings irrelevant to some of God's NT people. Stay away from them!

You were given a good platform for your faith. But you must study the Scriptures and grow in it, where you will see that while we are not saved by the works of faith, after salvation we are sanctified, made holy, by the works of faith, which is important, because "Without holiness, no one will see the Lord." (Hebrews 12:14)

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Do you Keep Jesus' Commandments?

Ligurian said:

Do you Keep Jesus' Commandments?

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See Matthew 22:37-40 (Romans 13:8-10).

About how I quoted Matthew 26:18 in Post #19 of the first page of this thread . . . Ligurian said:

What version is that? polus is missing in your verse... meaning many.

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That was from the OH-oh translation!! I have corrected that. Thank you so much for showing us how I quoted that wrong.

jameshjr said:

So I went for a walk with someone I know from my church for the first time. We eventually got around to talking about Jesus.


He asked me how i came to the faith, and I informed him that i had spent most of my life looking for truth and that i finally came to christianity and found it to be true.


He then went on to say that all religions teach the same thing : do good.


I said, is that not where Christianity is different: in that we are saved by grace through faith. To which i cannot remember his response.


More was said with which i had an issue, and i soon asked him if he thought Jesus is the son of God, to which he replied: He was born of the spirit.


Now this has thrown me through a loop. I am new to the faith (around 18 months) and he has been going to church a long time.


I figured that everyone who went to church believed that Jesus was the son of God and believed in salvation through faith, and not salvation through works.


I have thought about this and read Matthew's gospel; but only the red letter (what Jesus said).


I found one passage where Jesus mentioned his sacrifice for the remission of sins: Matthew 26:28. Which could be interpreted many ways based upon that one line of text.


To counter the idea of being saved by grace through faith is the concluding text of Matthew 28:18-20. Which i think could be argued that Jesus wants us to do as he taught (leaning more towards deeds over grace through faith).


I know that Paul further went into the theme of salvation through grace (why should i trust Pauls teaching), but if we were to go purely off of just Marks gospel, then could it not fairly be argued that Jesus teaches that we are saved by works rather than grace just like every other religion?


I'd really like some help with this, as my faith idea of my faith has been shaken.


P.s. i do beleive that Jesus is the son of God and has clear authority given to him from the Father, and therefore whatever he taught, i believe is what i should (try to) follow, and would like to clarify exactly what that is.

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The issue is interpretation of scripture and what qualifies as doing good. In Christianity (acknowledging it is God's Spirit that Loves others as ones self).

The way I see it, there are two forms of righteousness in scripture and two types of works (deeds). Works of the law are different than works of faith. Under the law, whoever sins is condemned and whoever doesn't sin is righteous. This however inevitably leads to hypocrisy and self condemnation. Under grace sin is sympathized with as a byproduct of being made flesh, and those who show mercy and understanding for this condition are righteous and therefore neither hypocritical nor self condemning.

Scripture indicates that the law exists to show that we as flesh beings are all corruptible and sinners. To believe that Jesus is the son of God is to believe that it is consistent with God's Character, that He would show His Love/compassion by suffering a crucifixion so that sinners would be forgiven, not condemned. To follow Christ and be in the Spirit of Christ, we also must pick up our own cross (metaphorically speaking) and forgive those even who would crucify us, just as Jesus did.

Hence God's righteousness is by grace through faith and not by the works of the law. For the sake of contrast, I'll reverse the terminology from positive to negative denotations: Unrighteousness is by cynicism through distrust.

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 3
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Galatians 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

childeye 2 said:

The issue is interpretation of scripture and what qualifies as doing good. In Christianity (acknowledging it is God's Spirit that Loves others as ones self).
The way I see it, there are two forms of righteousness in scripture and two types of works (deeds).

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Works of the law are different than works of faith. Under the law, whoever sins is condemned and whoever doesn't sin is righteous. This however inevitably leads to hypocrisy and self condemnation.

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Keeping in mind that all were condemned/cursed under the law (Galatians 3:10) because no one could keep it without offense.

Under grace sin is sympathized with

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You kinda' went off the rail here.
Biblically, God never responds to sin with sympathy, because God is infinitely holy and cannot tolerate sin in his presence. Sin is to the presence of God as deadly bacteria is to an OR (operating room)--to be destroyed. Sin incurs God's great "displeasure" (i.e., wrath, John 3:36; Romans 5:9), his justice requiring its retribution (just as law-breaking does in our legal system). If not, God could have "sympathized" with sin, and Jesus would not have had to be its atoning bloody sacrifice.
We have God's favor because the retribution for our sin has been paid, and we have been made righteous by Christ's righteousness being accounted to us (Romans 5:19), as righteousness was accounted/credited to Abraham (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3), not because God ever sympathizes with sin.

However, Scripture shows God covering sin in the lid of the Ark, until its retribution was paid,
which Ark contained testimony to their sin--the jar of manna (their grumbling, Exodus 16:2-4, 33), and Aaron's staff (Korah's rebellion against the priesthood, Numbers 16:1-3, 17:10), and
which lid was sprinkled with the blood of the atoning sacrifice on the annual Day of Atonement.
Scripture also shows God overlooking sin of the OT saints (Romans 3:26) until its retribution was paid in Christ's atoning sacrifice.

But God does not "sympathize" with sin in the NT, he deals with sin by his own Son's retribution of it, removing it, and crediting us with Christ's righteousness through faith, as he credited Abraham with righteousness through faith.

It is best to frame NT concepts in NT Biblical terms.
To "add" our improvement to those terms is really to subtract from those terms, and to actually change NT teaching.

As the man says, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." ('cause then you really break it)

Clare73 said:

You kinda' went off the rail here.
Biblically, God never responds to sin with sympathy, because God is infinitely holy and cannot tolerate sin in his presence. Sin is to the presence of God as deadly bacteria is to an OR (operating room)--to be destroyed.

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Thank you, Clare 73. Perhaps I did not articulate my sentiments that well. To clear up any misunderstanding, I'm saying, "God feels sympathy/compassion for mankind in his condition as a sinner, and not "God feels sympathy for sin", which is illogical.

Sin incurs God's great "displeasure" (i.e., wrath, John 3:36; Romans 5:9), his justice requiring its retribution (just as law-breaking does in our legal system). If not, God could have "sympathized" with sin, and Jesus would not have had to be its atoning bloody sacrifice.

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Here is where deviations in theology have occurred throughout history. Is Christ's suffering a display of God's retribution, or His mercy and understanding?


The wrath of God in Romans 1, is against all unrighteousness of men, who suppress the Truth of God's Eternal Power in their reasonings as the Godhead and Creator of all things. As such mankind did not esteem God as the Power that is the Light of mankind, and became vain and unthankful to God in their foolishness.

Some people interpret this as Paul saying that we know what's right but didn't want to do it. So that when Paul says that God gave men over to their flesh to become sinful, they see it as God let them do what they wanted to do, rather than God let them become sinful to show them what we become without His wisdom.

We have God's favor because the retribution for our sin has been paid, and we have been made righteous by Christ's righteousness being accounted to us (Romans 5:19), as righteousness was accounted/credited to Abraham (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3), not because God ever sympathizes with sin.

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Well, I disagree that the cruelty endured by Jesus on the cross is God's wrath/retribution. The law required a blood sacrifice. In His blood is a New Covenant. Jesus died so that through death he could destroy the devil who had the power of death under the Old Covenant. God desired mercy and understanding (Sympathy), not sacrifice.

Biblically, God never responds to sin with sympathy, because God is infinitely holy and cannot tolerate sin in his presence. Sin is to the presence of God as deadly bacteria is to an OR (operating room)--to be destroyed.

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Matthew 18:21-35
King James Version

21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.

24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.

25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.

26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.

29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.

31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.

32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:

33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

God saves. Not grace. God saves by His grace through faith in Him.

Grace is God's favor to repent. It is not unlimited.

We are given space to repent by grace of God. Without repentance God cannot save, because faith without works of repentance is dead.

We are saved by grace through faith and justified with works accompanying.

The grace of God is not an all-encompassing noncondition, by which themthat claim faith are eternally saved.

Clare73 said:

See Matthew 22:37-40 (Romans 13:8-10).

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Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.

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Matthew 5:18 Matthew 10:5-7 Matthew 24:14

Deuteronomy 13:1-3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Matthew 5:17-20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [that] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 23:26 Blind Pharisee, cleanse first that within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. John 15:1-3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 7 If ye abide in Me, and My words abide in you...

U.S. Grant said:

God saves. Not grace. God saves by His grace through faith in Him.

Grace is God's favor to repent. It is not unlimited.

We are given space to repent by grace of God. Without repentance God cannot save, because faith without works of repentance is dead.

We are saved by grace through faith and justified with works accompanying.

The grace of God is not an all-encompassing noncondition, by which them that claim faith are eternally saved.

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Revelation 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce My servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her harlotry; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am He which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

nephros = of uncertain affinity; a kidney (plural), i.e. (figuratively) the inmost mind:--reins.

GOD Shines Forth! said:

This might be helpful if you have 30 min. sometime…

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It is helpful to learn that Paul teaches what was never taught in the Old Covenant nor by Jesus to the lost sheep of the house of Israel... he uses the word mystery as often as Paul does.

Jesus says mysteries once, and fulfilled the prophecy of Psalms.

Matthew 13:10 And the Disciples came, and said unto Him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, but to them it is not given.

Psalms 78:1 Give heed, O My people, to My Law: incline your ear to the words of My mouth. 2 I will open My mouth in parables: I will utter dark sayings which have been from the beginning. ... 70 He chose David also His servant, and took him up from the flocks of sheep. 71 He took him from following the ewes great with young, to be the shepherd of Jacob His servant, and Israel His inheritance. 72 So He tended them in the innocency of His heart; and guided them by the skillfulness of His hands.

Clare73 said:

<snip>
There are "Judaizers" out there who hate Paul and his teachings, passing themselves off as NT Christians, given to trying to unseat Paul and his teachings, and if not to unseat him, then to make his teachings irrelevant to some of God's NT people.
<snip>

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Can't you tell by his icon what he believes?

x-x-x-x-x-x-Galatians 2:7-9-x-x-x-x-x-x

Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

childeye 2 said:

Thank you, Clare 73. Perhaps I did not articulate my sentiments that well. To clear up any misunderstanding, I'm saying, "God feels sympathy/compassion for mankind in his condition as a sinner, and not "God feels sympathy for sin", which is illogical.

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Gotcha'.

Here is where deviations in theology have occurred throughout history. Is Christ's suffering a display of God's retribution, or His mercy and understanding?

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It's not either/or, it's both/and.

The cross is God's love/mercy, in which he himself satisfies the retribution required by his own justice.

Why separate them?

The wrath of God in Romans 1, is against all unrighteousness of men, who suppress the Truth of God's Eternal Power in their reasonings as the Godhead and Creator of all things. As such mankind did not esteem God as the Power that is the Light of mankind, and became vain and unthankful to God in their foolishness.

Some people interpret this as Paul saying that we know what's right but didn't want to do it. So that

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when Paul says that God gave men over to their flesh to become sinful, they see it as God let them do what they wanted to do, rather than God let them become sinful to show them what we become without His wisdom.

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God punished their sin with (more) sin, according to the law of retaliation: "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth."

Well, I disagree that the cruelty endured by Jesus on the cross is God's wrath/retribution.

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However, the NT is pretty clear on that. God's holy and righteous character is vindicated in his justice of punishing sin.
And God himself has satisfied (expiated) his own justice in becoming flesh to be sin's propitiation (recompense/satisfaction). (1 John 4:10)

Hebrews 9:5: hilasterion = "lid of the ark"; place of propitiation (recompense, satisfaction)
where the blood was sprinkled on the annual Day of Atonement

Romans 3:25: hilasterion = "propitiation,"
"whom God presented as propitiation ("sacrifice of atonement") through faith in his blood"

1 John 2:2, 1 John 4:10: hilasmos = "what appeases, propitiates"
"he is the propitiation ("atoning sacrifice") for our sins"
"sent his Son (to be) the propitiation ("atoning sacrifice") for our sins"

It is the sacrifice and the blood (death) of Jesus which are the propitiation, as were the sacrifices of the OT.

The law required a blood sacrifice.

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The law required death, which was the purpose of slitting the throat and draining the blood of the animal sacrifice ("the life is in the blood").

In His blood is a New Covenant.

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Just as the old Covenant was in blood (Exodus 24:8), as well as the Abrahamic covenant in the blood of the pieces (Genesis 15:17) of slaughtered animals (Genesis 15:9-10).

Jesus died so that through death he could destroy the devil

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Which destruction required propitiation for sin as shown in Romans 3:25; 1 John 2:2, 1 John 4:10.

who had the power of death under the Old Covenant.

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And still has the power of death outside the New Covenant, where the devil is not destroyed.

God desired mercy and understanding (Sympathy), not sacrifice.

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The context of which statement (Hosea 6:6) is faithless Israel: where sacrifices apart from faithfulness to the Lord's will are wholly unacceptalbe to him (1 Samuel 15:22).

God's own Son's death on the cross was the sacrifice of propitiation (recompense, satisfaction) required by the justice of God for the vindication of his holy and righteous character, which cannot tolerate sin.