Is there salvation without Mary?

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I bet this idea comes from non-biblical sources

Indeed, its pure speculation; we have no idea what his motives were, but it is a fact that the only confirmed child of the Virgin Mary mentioned in Scripture, or even in the Apocrypha, is our Lord, God and Savior, and given that all Patristic authorities, and all of the leaders of the Reformation, including Martin Luther, John Calvin, Thomas Cranmer and John Wesley believed in her perpetual virginity, particularly when we consider that Luther, Calvin and Wesley in particular spent massive amounts of time studying scripture, it is safe to say that this doctrine is Biblically sound.

The only reason why I can think people might oppose it is misguided anti-Catholicism.
 
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robycop3

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you of course can believe it, but the belief that it is the only TRUE source is not biblical, nor is that belief shared by the Church from it's beginning until present day.
That's part of why I'm not RC, among others, including their false beliefs, one of which is being discussed in this thread. And OF COURSE that source is true, as that's the way God has chosen to communicate with us now.
 
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robycop3

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No, it doesn’t. Nowhere does scripture say that Mary has other children. It mentions his brothers, but based on Judaic cultural context, there is every reason to believe these were the offspring of Joseph or his cousins. For example, St. James the Apostle, the son of Alfeus, who presided over the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 (not to be confused with St. James the Great, the brother of St. John the Beloved Disciple, who was the first Apostle to be martyred* earlier in Acts) was a cousin of our Lord, but was called “the brother of the Lord.”



While that is an assumption on your part, if true, it still would not mean that, after the Virgin Birth, they would not respect the miracle that occurred and remain in holy celibacy for their lifetimes. But, and this may surprise some, a lot of elderly people like St. Joseph get married even today with no intention to engage in sexual relations.
Know what "Bah Humbug!" means ?

If you're celibate for physical reasons, I shall pray for you. but if you've chosen to be celibate to try to impress God, I have no respect for that.

Did JESUS ever give a celibacy command? Newp! For religious purposes, one else's commands matter.
 
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concretecamper

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And OF COURSE that source is true, as that's the way God has chosen to communicate with us now.
another non-biblical belief. that's 3 already.

Better be careful, people will start calling you RC
 
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Know what "Bah Humbug!" means ?

Yes. And I also propose that using a phrase famously attributed to Ebenezer Scrooge is not compelling from a literary perspective.

If you're celibate for physical reasons, I shall pray for you. but if you've chosen to be celibate to try to impress God, I have no respect for that.

I am celibate because the one great romance of my life was unsuccessful, no one else has come along as yet, and I am commanded not to engage in fornication, not that it is any of your business, however, I am considering a monastic vocation. Monasticism is not about trying to impress God by the way; any monk with such a view would be in grave danger of spiritual delusion resulting from pride, which is known to be the most dangerous passion for monastics (since lust, gluttony, avarice and other passions can be conquered with difficulty, but when one does that, the temptation to be proud of it as though it were done by one’s own ascetic perseverance and not through the grace of the Holy Spirit is immense). Monks who fall into spiritual delusion in turn sometimes wind up dead as a result of demonic tricks, and on other occasions, if they become bishops or abbots, or otherwise gain influence, they can be a danger to the church as they are situated to introduce schisms and heresies.

Rather, the point of monasticism is to focus on a life of prayer without the distractions of secular living.

I am not a fan of the Roman Catholic approach, which is now confined to the Roman, Ambrosian and Mozarabic Rites only, of having celibate secular clergy. Friars make sense however, as they cost less to maintain than either celibate secular priests or married priests, being that they are monks, and the Orthodox church sends out monastic priests to do similar work as friars, for example, running mission parishes or providing replacement clergy for parishes who lose their priest, and these priests generally form the pool from which the vast majority of Eastern and Oriental Orthodox bishops are recruited, although married and widowed bishops do exist. Orthodox priests not attached to a monastery are almost always married, the exceptions being priests who converted from Roman Catholicism.

Note that everything I have said about monasticism applies to Eastern and Oriental Orthodox monasteries only. @dzheremi and @GreekOrthodox are very knowledgeable in these traditions. There are also Anglican, Lutheran and Methodist monasteries; Anglican monasteries tend to be Benedictine, but there are also Franciscan friars in that tradition, ( @Shane R might know if there are any in the ACNA or Continuing Anglicanism or if it is thus far an Episcopalian/Church of England thing) and I think Lutheran monasteries, which exist in Sweden and Germany, are Augustinian, as is St. Augustine’s House in the US (whose abbot died, I believe). @MarkRohfrietsch would know more.

The Methodist religious order is the Order of St. Luke. Also, the founder of Taize was a celibate Calvinist, who I admire, and who my friend @hedrick might know more about.

Did JESUS ever give a celibacy command? Newp! For religious purposes, one else's commands matter.

If you read your New Testament again, you might take note of where St. Paul expressly stated that virginity is preferable to Holy Matrimony, although marriage is still good. But celibate virginity, when possible, is better. Furthermore, he himself was known to be celibate, as were a great many of the apostles.
 
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robycop3

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Yes. And I also propose that using a phrase famously attributed to Ebenezer Scrooge is not compelling from a literary perspective.



I am celibate because the one great romance of my life was unsuccessful, no one else has come along as yet, and I am commanded not to engage in fornication, not that it is any of your business, however, I am considering a monastic vocation. Monasticism is not about trying to impress God by the way; any monk with such a view would be in grave danger of spiritual delusion resulting from pride, which is known to be the most dangerous passion for monastics (since lust, gluttony, avarice and other passions can be conquered with difficulty, but when one does that, the temptation to be proud of it as though it were done by one’s own ascetic perseverance and not through the grace of the Holy Spirit is immense). Monks who fall into spiritual delusion in turn sometimes wind up dead as a result of demonic tricks, and on other occasions, if they become bishops or abbots, or otherwise gain influence, they can be a danger to the church as they are situated to introduce schisms and heresies.

Rather, the point of monasticism is to focus on a life of prayer without the distractions of secular living.

I am not a fan of the Roman Catholic approach, which is now confined to the Roman, Ambrosian and Mozarabic Rites only, of having celibate secular clergy. Friars make sense however, as they cost less to maintain than either celibate secular priests or married priests, being that they are monks, and the Orthodox church sends out monastic priests to do similar work as friars, for example, running mission parishes or providing replacement clergy for parishes who lose their priest, and these priests generally form the pool from which the vast majority of Eastern and Oriental Orthodox bishops are recruited, although married and widowed bishops do exist. Orthodox priests not attached to a monastery are almost always married, the exceptions being priests who converted from Roman Catholicism.

Note that everything I have said about monasticism applies to Eastern and Oriental Orthodox monasteries only. @dzheremi and @GreekOrthodox are very knowledgeable in these traditions. There are also Anglican, Lutheran and Methodist monasteries; Anglican monasteries tend to be Benedictine, but there are also Franciscan friars in that tradition, ( @Shane R might know if there are any in the ACNA or Continuing Anglicanism or if it is thus far an Episcopalian/Church of England thing) and I think Lutheran monasteries, which exist in Sweden and Germany, are Augustinian, as is St. Augustine’s House in the US (whose abbot died, I believe). @MarkRohfrietsch would know more.

The Methodist religious order is the Order of St. Luke. Also, the founder of Taize was a celibate Calvinist, who I admire, and who my friend @hedrick might know more about.



If you read your New Testament again, you might take note of where St. Paul expressly stated that virginity is preferable to Holy Matrimony, although marriage is still good. But celibate virginity, when possible, is better. Furthermore, he himself was known to be celibate, as were a great many of the apostles.
You have a legitimate reason to be celibate at this time, far as I'm concerned. I should've included that in my legitimate reasons for celibacy. But being so for religious purposes is anathema to me. And remember, even Paul denounced forbidding to marry in 1 Tim. 4:2-3.

And, after the birth of Jesus, & the Jewish purification period after a childbirth, I don't believe Joseph & Mary were celibate, especially since Scripture mentione at least six other kids they had, without the slightest indication they were anyone else's offspring.
 
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Shane R

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Yes. And I also propose that using a phrase famously attributed to Ebenezer Scrooge is not compelling from a literary perspective.



I am celibate because the one great romance of my life was unsuccessful, no one else has come along as yet, and I am commanded not to engage in fornication, not that it is any of your business, however, I am considering a monastic vocation. Monasticism is not about trying to impress God by the way; any monk with such a view would be in grave danger of spiritual delusion resulting from pride, which is known to be the most dangerous passion for monastics (since lust, gluttony, avarice and other passions can be conquered with difficulty, but when one does that, the temptation to be proud of it as though it were done by one’s own ascetic perseverance and not through the grace of the Holy Spirit is immense). Monks who fall into spiritual delusion in turn sometimes wind up dead as a result of demonic tricks, and on other occasions, if they become bishops or abbots, or otherwise gain influence, they can be a danger to the church as they are situated to introduce schisms and heresies.

Rather, the point of monasticism is to focus on a life of prayer without the distractions of secular living.

I am not a fan of the Roman Catholic approach, which is now confined to the Roman, Ambrosian and Mozarabic Rites only, of having celibate secular clergy. Friars make sense however, as they cost less to maintain than either celibate secular priests or married priests, being that they are monks, and the Orthodox church sends out monastic priests to do similar work as friars, for example, running mission parishes or providing replacement clergy for parishes who lose their priest, and these priests generally form the pool from which the vast majority of Eastern and Oriental Orthodox bishops are recruited, although married and widowed bishops do exist. Orthodox priests not attached to a monastery are almost always married, the exceptions being priests who converted from Roman Catholicism.

Note that everything I have said about monasticism applies to Eastern and Oriental Orthodox monasteries only. @dzheremi and @GreekOrthodox are very knowledgeable in these traditions. There are also Anglican, Lutheran and Methodist monasteries; Anglican monasteries tend to be Benedictine, but there are also Franciscan friars in that tradition, ( @Shane R might know if there are any in the ACNA or Continuing Anglicanism or if it is thus far an Episcopalian/Church of England thing) and I think Lutheran monasteries, which exist in Sweden and Germany, are Augustinian, as is St. Augustine’s House in the US (whose abbot died, I believe). @MarkRohfrietsch would know more.

The Methodist religious order is the Order of St. Luke. Also, the founder of Taize was a celibate Calvinist, who I admire, and who my friend @hedrick might know more about.



If you read your New Testament again, you might take note of where St. Paul expressly stated that virginity is preferable to Holy Matrimony, although marriage is still good. But celibate virginity, when possible, is better. Furthermore, he himself was known to be celibate, as were a great many of the apostles.
I know of Benedictines, Cistercians, and some monks who follow a Celtic rule.
 
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concretecamper

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Can you prove otherwise?

let's see:

referring to the Bible, you posted
as that's the way God has chosen to communicate with us now

referring to the Bible, you posted

which is our only source of TRUE intel about God.


referring to I have no clue, you posted

And again, Joseph didn't marry her just to be his cook

all these things are not found in the Bible. You of course can prove me wrong by quoting book, chapter, and verse that deals with your 3 beliefs. (hint: I know the bible doesn't teach these 3 things)

I, a Roman Catholic, more closely follows what the Bible teaches than you do.
 
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prodromos

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And, after the birth of Jesus, & the Jewish purification period after a childbirth, I don't believe Joseph & Mary were celibate, especially since Scripture mentione at least six other kids they had, without the slightest indication they were anyone else's offspring.
Other than their behavior being consistent with being older brothers to Jesus, and by the same token completely inconsistent with Jesus being the eldest.
 
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robycop3

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let's see:

referring to the Bible, you posted

Again, can you show us any other way God has communicated with man lately?[/I]


referring to the Bible, you posted
Can you show us any other source of intel about God? Newp!




referring to I have no clue, you posted
There's nothing in Scripture that says J&M's marriage was anything but normal, once Joe found out her child was of the Holy Spirit.



all these things are not found in the Bible. You of course can prove me wrong by quoting book, chapter, and verse that deals with your 3 beliefs. (hint: I know the bible doesn't teach these 3 things)

I, a Roman Catholic, more closely follows what the Bible teaches than you do.
I doubt it, plus you evidently follow lotsa things NOT found in Scripture, such as the perpetual virginity of Mary. I could make a maxi-post of such things that RCs believe or practice.
 
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concretecamper

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Again, can you show us any other way God has communicated with man lately?
I didnt make any claim. You did. All I did was ask you to back it up. I can see that you cant or are unwilling. I think it may be both.

Can you show us any other source of intel about God? Newp!
who is us? it seem YOU are the only one holding to your position. Anyway, the Doctrine of the Trinity and the Natures of Christ ARE NOT found in the Bible. I suspect you accept more extra-biblical idea than you are aware of.

I doubt it
from what you've posted, I can definitely say I follow the Bible closer than you do.

plus you evidently follow lotsa things NOT found in Scripture, such as the perpetual virginity of Mary. I could make a maxi-post of such things that RCs believe or practice.
so what. Unless you can show me where the bible says that all Christian truths are found in the Bible, your accusation is pointless.
 
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robycop3

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I didnt make any claim. You did. All I did was ask you to back it up. I can see that you cant or are unwilling. I think it may be both.
Not at all. No one can show us TRUTHFULLY any other way that God has communicated with man since the days of the apostles.

who is us? it seem YOU are the only one holding to your position. Anyway, the Doctrine of the Trinity and the Natures of Christ ARE NOT found in the Bible. I suspect you accept more extra-biblical idea than you are aware of.
"Us" is the readership of this thread. The Trinity is found in Scripture by clear implication, especially in the story of Jesus' baptism, & in His command to baptize in the names of the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit. And many Scriptures make it plain that while Jesus was here, He was both wholly man & wholly God.

from what you've posted, I can definitely say I follow the Bible closer than you do.
Newp! And you follow many things not found in any valid Bible translation. OTOH, I am sola scriptura, following only Biblical doctrines of faith/worship.

so what. Unless you can show me where the bible says that all Christian truths are found in the Bible, your accusation is pointless.
You can't show me any Christian truths NOT found in the Bible.
 
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Two reasons why Mary is the mother of our salvation!

1: Because Jesus Christ is our salvation Lk 2:30 and Mary is His mother!


2: Because she consented to our salvation! Lk 1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.
Mary is dead and in the grave and her spirit is among all the other believers' spirits awaiting the final resurrection.
 
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prodromos

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Again, no indication those people were not Jesus' bros. by the same mother.
If the Scriptures are consistent with them being older than Jesus, and Mary is a virgin at Jesus' birth, then it is impossible for Jesus' brethren to have come from Mary's womb. Thus, every indication they are not by the same mother. You haven't posted any Scripture that proves otherwise.
 
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concretecamper

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The Trinity is found in Scripture by clear implication, especially in the story of Jesus' baptism, & in His command to baptize in the names of the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit.
this is far short of describing the Trinity. All you've shown is 3 psrsons.
And many Scriptures make it plain that while Jesus was here, He was both wholly man & wholly God.
this is far short of explaining the 2 natures of Christ.

I suspect you believe what the Church formulated over the first 4 centuries but you cany bring yourself to admit it. It's ok, WE all know.
 
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Valletta

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Again, can you show us any other way God has communicated with man lately?[/I]



Can you show us any other source of intel about God? Newp!





There's nothing in Scripture that says J&M's marriage was anything but normal, once Joe found out her child was of the Holy Spirit.




I doubt it, plus you evidently follow lotsa things NOT found in Scripture, such as the perpetual virginity of Mary. I could make a maxi-post of such things that RCs believe or practice.
Mary is dead and in the grave and her spirit is among all the other believers' spirits awaiting the final resurrection.
Those in Heaven are alive, not dead. Mary was assumed into Heaven.
 
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You can't show me any Christian truths NOT found in the Bible.
I can, but you won't accept those truths because you follow a belief that is not in the Bible--sola scriptura.

Jesus did speak of His brothers: Matthew 23:8: But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. RSVCE
 
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