The light travel time problem

SkyWriting

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Genesis 2:7 7 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.



Created does not mean re-make. Try as you may, that is not what created means. Man re-makes things, but only God created. That is what separates God from the things He created.
I'm not trying anything.
I looked for the "idea" that anything was made instantaneously and found no such language existed. Not anywhere in scripture. Only from Ken Ham. So since it is not there, I decided I was misinformed by Ken Ham and his friends.
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tdidymas

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How about the Genesis Flood????

Genesis shows us that the past has changed drastically. In Genesis we learn that, before the flood, the earth was watered by springs, there was no rain. During and in the aftermath of the flood, climactic changes occurred over thousands of years as the earth adjusted = just as we see in the fossil record and archeology.

Present day examples you gave of the past determining the present or future in recent time cannot surmise something that you do not know happened thousands of years ago.

Changes in radiation, gravity, major environmental changes, including many asteroids that enter our atmosphere every year, means that we cannot take for granted and surmise that everything happens just as it did 2000 years ago or more.

Considering radiation: Scientists are well aware of the fact that radiometric dating becomes ever more flawed the further the time is involved, and the results are open to interpretation of the one using the data. Results can be off by hundreds of thousands or millions of years based on who is interpreting the data.

I can surmise, based on my belief in God's Word, that God created all things by His Word and Spirit about 7,000 years ago. All Scriptural evidence reveals that God spoke all things into existence quickly, all things being created in six days. That would mean that everything created at that time was as it was and begin its decaying process to the present day, taking into account all environmental factors. If so, then how we date things must take into account that supposition.

You can surmise, based on your belief in an earth that may be billions of years old, that everything must be dated as if all things continued to happen as they did billions of years ago - all things continuing to occur just as they did at that time. You can surmise that this is all in line with God's Holy Word, even though no such Scriptural evidence exists.

I will take God at His Word. If I Am wrong, I have nothing to lose, but much to gain.

Genesis 2:3 (NIV)
Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

Exodus 20:11 (NIV)
For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Exodus 31:17 (NIV)
It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’”

Isaiah 45:11-12 (NIV)
11 “This is what the Lord says—the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker: Concerning things to come, do you question me about my children, or give me orders about the work of my hands?
12 It is I who made the earth and created mankind on it. My own hands stretched out the heavens; I marshaled their starry hosts.

Isaiah 48:12-13 (NIV)
12 “Listen to me, Jacob, Israel, whom I have called:
I am he; I am the first and I am the last.
13 My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens;
when I summon them, they all stand up together.

Psalms 33:6-9 “By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast”

Colossians 1:15-21
“And He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created by Him and for Him."

Blessings.
How about answering the OP question? What can you surmise about that?

Your surmising so far hasn't solved the issue. It only argues for a young universe, but leaves the dilemma intact. So if you wish to develop an apologetic argument as to why we see what looks like a 10B year old universe, you should think about how to resolve it. If not, you won't convince anyone of anything. So far, you have spent time arguing theory while avoiding the question. Care to engage?
 
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SkyWriting

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Created does not mean re-make. Try as you may, that is not what created means. Man re-makes things, but only God created. That is what separates God from the things He created.

The words used do mean re-make or alter what is already there.

"create or make"

בָּרָ֣א (bā·rā)
Verb - Qal - Perfect - third person masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 1254: 1) to create, shape, form 1a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject) 1a1) of heaven and earth 1a2) of individual man 1a3) of new conditions and circumstances 1a4) of transformations 1b) (Niphal) to be created 1b1) of heaven and earth 1b2) of birth 1b3) of something new 1b4) of miracles 1c) (Piel) 1c1) to cut down 1c2) to cut out 2) to be fat 2a) (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat

עָשָׂה (asah) -- accomplish
Strong's Hebrew: 6213.



This solves the light travel problem.
 
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coffee4u

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Every one of your examples involve transformation/modification/changing of existing material. As I mentioned.

Example

Genesis 1:26 - Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our


aw-saw' Verb
Definition

  1. to do, fashion, accomplish, make
    1. (Qal)
      1. to do, work, make, produce 1a
    2. to do 1a
    3. to work 1a
    4. to deal (with) 1a
    5. to act, act with effect, effect
      1. to make 1a
    6. to make 1a
    7. to produce 1a
    8. to prepare 1a
    9. to make (an offering) 1a
    10. to attend to, put in order 1a
    11. to observe, celebrate 1a
    12. to acquire (property) 1a
    13. to appoint, ordain, institute 1a
    14. to bring about 1a
    15. to use 1a
    16. to spend, pass
    17. (Niphal)
      1. to be done
      2. to be made
      3. to be produced
      4. to be offered
      5. to be observed
      6. to be used
    18. (Pual) to be made
  2. (Piel) to press, squeeze

There are verses that use a combination of words, some which appear to be existing material other appear to be Ex nihilo and yet others are neither. That is a complete straw man you have built because to be consistent every verse on creation would have to follow that pattern of using 'existing materials' for you to have a solid case. When I have time I will dig up all those verses.

However lets for argument sake God did use exiting materials (although I am quite sure he did not) this still does not explain your statement.
"man was re-made from animals who had no Breath of God in them."
No where does it say that. So we are back yet again to what scripture are you using to back this statement up?

I say God made man from the ground.
Genesis 2
The Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground
 
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Lost4words

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Hi tdidymas,

Well, I'm going to suggest that if you've read the ICR & AIG explanations, there likely isn't an explanation that's going to satisfy your mind to reject a millions, billions years old universe. As the Scriptures declare, God's righteous ones shall live by faith. Paul wrote it this way: For we live by faith, not by sight. Faith being the substance of believing things that just can't be seen and proved, but are attested to by the God who created all things.

By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

Notice, please, what that passage of Scripture says in its completeness. First, it is by faith, not the science of men, that believers understand that the universe was formed at God's command. Secondly, while scientific theory attempts to teach us that the earth and the other heavenly bodies were formed 'from' some pre-existing matter, God's word says that's not true. What is seen was not made out of what was visible.

So, bottom line. If you are the kind of believer who can't except what God's word says because our scientific knowledge would refute it...then maybe you're not really a believer. What do you think it means for the Scriptures to speak so much about 'believing'? What is it actually that we are being asked to believe? Jesus said that God's word is truth. Is it...for you? Are you willing to believe God's word over the words and scientific study and studied wisdom of men? To just turn in your mind and say that no matter the supposed evidence that man can provide to support 'how' things came to be...I believe God.

You see, in another thread just today I was pointing out to a seeker of wisdom that God deals in miracles. By definition a miracle is some event that cannot be explained by the natural processes of things. The birth of a child from a woman who had never had sexual relations with a man. That's a miracle and there's not a scientist who has ever, or is now, living that can explain to you how that child came to be born. Similarly, the creation event was a miracle. Something that, according to the Scriptures, God created from nothing and twice repeated that He did it in six days. That's a miracle!

Of course, man's thirst for knowledge compels him to look into 'how' the universe came to be. So we poke and prod and study and extrapolate using the laws that we know control all the natural elements. Out of that we come up with what sound like reasonable explanations because, well... because we know that light acts in certain ways and therefore...

But what if when God creates light, it is created in a manner outside of the natural laws that we know? What if, on the day that God said, "Let there be stars and heavenly bodies in the entire expanse of the universe."; that the light from those stars was immediately, on the very day, at the very moment they came to exist...the light from each and every one of them was visible to observers on the earth as much as they could see with their naked eye. Remember if you will, that when Adam looked up at the night sky, it was as we look up at the night sky standing in the middle of Alaska or some other great expanse of land with no light sources from the earth to blind the eye. He would have seen the night sky just literally loaded by the millions with stars. What if God made every one of those stars, visible to Adam six days later, visible in the very moment that they were created no matter how great a distance they were from the earth? You see, that's understanding that the creation event was a miracle. We can't explain it based on what we know about super novas...no matter how hard we try or how very, very smart the people who are trying to explain it to us, are.

We can define it anyway that we like. We can say that God stretched the light of the stars supernaturally. We can say that God sped up the travel of light to travel from one end of the universe to the other in a mere moment for just that special creation event, and then everything fell into operating through a set of natural properties.

So, you don't really need someone to explain to you 'how' God did what He claims to have done in the Scriptures. There really isn't any way that a feeble man can explain the 'how' of God's miracles. You'll never understand or be able to prove 'how' that embryo got stuck to the wall of Mary's womb. What you need is to understand that as hard as science may try, it's never going to be able to prove 'how' miracles come to be.

Tell me, if you can. How did Jesus change several large jugs of water, within mere moments, into wine? Why, when the servants poured out the liquid contents from those jugs, wasn't it just water?

God bless,
Ted

Superb post
 
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setst777

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I'm not trying anything.
I looked for the "idea" that anything was made instantaneously and found no such language existed. Not anywhere in scripture. Only from Ken Ham. So since it is not there, I decided I was misinformed by Ken Ham and his friends.
Our People | ICR - Strategic Communications and Advisory

God spoke and it came into existence. Each of the six days that God created, these were instantaneous creations that the Lord spoke into existence.

Psalms 33:6-9 “By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast

Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

Genesis 2:3 (NIV)
Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

Exodus 20:11 (NIV)
For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Exodus 31:17 (NIV)
It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’”
 
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SkyWriting

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God spoke and it came into existence. Each of the six days that God created, these were instantaneous creations that the Lord spoke into existence.

Psalms 33:6-9 “By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast

Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

Genesis 2:3 (NIV)
Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

Exodus 20:11 (NIV)
For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Exodus 31:17 (NIV)
It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’”

You can't find even the idea of "Instant" in the original language of the writings.
Your minister is not well informed.

בָּרָ֣א (bā·rā)
Verb - Qal - Perfect - third person masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 1254: 1) to create, shape, form 1a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject) 1a1) of heaven and earth 1a2) of individual man 1a3) of new conditions and circumstances 1a4) of transformations 1b) (Niphal) to be created 1b1) of heaven and earth 1b2) of birth 1b3) of something new 1b4) of miracles 1c) (Piel) 1c1) to cut down 1c2) to cut out 2) to be fat 2a) (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat

עָשָׂה (asah) -- accomplish
Strong's Hebrew: 6213.
 
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SkyWriting

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AdamjEdgar

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Hi tdidymas,

Well, I'm going to suggest that if you've read the ICR & AIG explanations, there likely isn't an explanation that's going to satisfy your mind to reject a millions, billions years old universe. As the Scriptures declare, God's righteous ones shall live by faith. Paul wrote it this way: For we live by faith, not by sight. Faith being the substance of believing things that just can't be seen and proved, but are attested to by the God who created all things.

By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

Notice, please, what that passage of Scripture says in its completeness. First, it is by faith, not the science of men, that believers understand that the universe was formed at God's command. Secondly, while scientific theory attempts to teach us that the earth and the other heavenly bodies were formed 'from' some pre-existing matter, God's word says that's not true. What is seen was not made out of what was visible.

So, bottom line. If you are the kind of believer who can't except what God's word says because our scientific knowledge would refute it...then maybe you're not really a believer. What do you think it means for the Scriptures to speak so much about 'believing'? What is it actually that we are being asked to believe? Jesus said that God's word is truth. Is it...for you? Are you willing to believe God's word over the words and scientific study and studied wisdom of men? To just turn in your mind and say that no matter the supposed evidence that man can provide to support 'how' things came to be...I believe God.

You see, in another thread just today I was pointing out to a seeker of wisdom that God deals in miracles. By definition a miracle is some event that cannot be explained by the natural processes of things. The birth of a child from a woman who had never had sexual relations with a man. That's a miracle and there's not a scientist who has ever, or is now, living that can explain to you how that child came to be born. Similarly, the creation event was a miracle. Something that, according to the Scriptures, God created from nothing and twice repeated that He did it in six days. That's a miracle!

Of course, man's thirst for knowledge compels him to look into 'how' the universe came to be. So we poke and prod and study and extrapolate using the laws that we know control all the natural elements. Out of that we come up with what sound like reasonable explanations because, well... because we know that light acts in certain ways and therefore...

But what if when God creates light, it is created in a manner outside of the natural laws that we know? What if, on the day that God said, "Let there be stars and heavenly bodies in the entire expanse of the universe."; that the light from those stars was immediately, on the very day, at the very moment they came to exist...the light from each and every one of them was visible to observers on the earth as much as they could see with their naked eye. Remember if you will, that when Adam looked up at the night sky, it was as we look up at the night sky standing in the middle of Alaska or some other great expanse of land with no light sources from the earth to blind the eye. He would have seen the night sky just literally loaded by the millions with stars. What if God made every one of those stars, visible to Adam six days later, visible in the very moment that they were created no matter how great a distance they were from the earth? You see, that's understanding that the creation event was a miracle. We can't explain it based on what we know about super novas...no matter how hard we try or how very, very smart the people who are trying to explain it to us, are.

We can define it anyway that we like. We can say that God stretched the light of the stars supernaturally. We can say that God sped up the travel of light to travel from one end of the universe to the other in a mere moment for just that special creation event, and then everything fell into operating through a set of natural properties.

So, you don't really need someone to explain to you 'how' God did what He claims to have done in the Scriptures. There really isn't any way that a feeble man can explain the 'how' of God's miracles. You'll never understand or be able to prove 'how' that embryo got stuck to the wall of Mary's womb. What you need is to understand that as hard as science may try, it's never going to be able to prove 'how' miracles come to be.

Tell me, if you can. How did Jesus change several large jugs of water, within mere moments, into wine? Why, when the servants poured out the liquid contents from those jugs, wasn't it just water?

God bless,
Ted
A great post...absolute winner.
 
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AdamjEdgar

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According to you, I'm not a believer because I don't interpret Gen. 1 in accordance with your opinion or how you judge it. Your analogy about what Jesus did is a straw man argument, and has nothing to do with my question. I agree that God created the universe. I also agree with the apostle Paul that things about God can be known by what He has made.

So here's the question for you: can you see a difference between God creating something instantaneously, and God creating a history of something instantaneously?
I like this point as well...I am convinced that God absolutely spoke into existence a mature earth and our universe. Whether all of the universe was created with the earth I find doubtful, however the earth...definately mature. Evidence is Adam...the narrative doesn't give us any indication he was a child...a mate was made for him (Eve).
Having said that, if supernovas are a destructive event that happened hundreds of thousands or millions of years ago...I have a huge theological problem with that...one is stating God created destruction before Adam and Eve sinned! That doesn't pass the perfect creation stink test. I don't think supernovas can be explained using science (my understanding is they are still very much theoretical )
 
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tdidymas

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I like this point as well...I am convinced that God absolutely spoke into existence a mature earth and our universe. Whether all of the universe was created with the earth I find doubtful, however the earth...definately mature. Evidence is Adam...the narrative doesn't give us any indication he was a child...a mate was made for him (Eve).
Having said that, if supernovas are a destructive event that happened hundreds of thousands or millions of years ago...I have a huge theological problem with that...one is stating God created destruction before Adam and Eve sinned! That doesn't pass the perfect creation stink test. I don't think supernovas can be explained using science (my understanding is they are still very much theoretical )
1. Your idea that a destructive event in the universe could not have happened before Adam and Eve is a speculative assumption at best. Did all meteors that hit the Earth and Moon happen after Adam and Eve? Did all volcanos happen after Adam and Eve? That, too is pure speculation based on a Young Earth bias.
2. In Gen. 1:2 it says "the Earth was..." which indicates that it already existed. "And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters" shows that not only the Earth, but also the water on the Earth existed. Therefore, "without form and void" clearly means that land was not yet formed, and the Earth was devoid of life at that time. I'm interpreting it in the literal sense here, as is the bias of YECs.
3. So, from 1:1 to 1:2 there could easily be a time gap, since most of the Bible, including historical narratives, do not follow a strict chronology.
4. I already stated in the OP that I have no issue with Moses using ANE cosmology to refute their accounts of the origin of the universe. Since the revelation of God is progressive, it's an accommodation to man's understanding at the time. There are many accommodations like that in scripture, and it's a type of anthropomorphism.

It appears to me that you "huge theological problem" is your bias about how you interpret Gen. 1. I take it that your claim is that the YEC crass literal interpretation is the correct one, and anything to the contrary poses a theological problem. Yet, supernovas are observed, and not theoretical.
 
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chad kincham

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The only work around I've come up with so far is to reject the traditional literal interpretations of Gen. 1. I do not see that chapter as a historical narrative. I do not see that chapter as a scientific account of how God did it. I see the statement "God created the world and everything in it in 6 days" as a religious statement, not a scientific one. I think Gen. 1 was written to contradict ancient Near-East myths about origins. I think that Gen. 1 is an accommodation to man's perspective at that time, as this is the most viable explanation so far.

Jesus clearly taught everything Moses wrote as literal and factual, so that settles that issue.

Moses made nothing up. Everything he wrote in the law and the prophets was given to Moses during the forty days he spent with God of Mount Sinai.

If science appears to contradict the Genesis creation account, then science is wrong with incomplete knowledge and/or wrong assumptions.

The Genesis account was correct that the universe had a sudden beginning in one moment of time, even when the accepted cosmological model was uniformity, aka the steady state model, which was that the universe always existed and had no beginning.

Science finally caught up to Genesis with the Big Bang theory, which is the accepted cosmology today.

Maranatha
 
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chad kincham

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Yes, the article in the link I posted addressed that, and it's nonsense. Light is proven to take time to travel A to B.

And what were the boundary conditions and laws of physics at the moment of creation?

We know energy cannot be created under the laws of thermodynamics we see today, yet energy was created at the instant of the BB, so at that moment God hadn’t set the laws of physics, which would include putting a finite limit on the speed of light.

When God flung the universe out like an unfolding sheet, and the newly created universe was expanded to however many billions of light years in diameter, He didn’t wait for a hundred billion, or whatever the number of years is, for stars and galaxies to get that far away, they were placed there instantly.

Isa 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
(Expansion of the universe)


And they left a trail of light behind them on their journey, thus a stars distance of ten BY does not prove that the universe is actually that old.
 
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BeyondET

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I believe it is like the rivers God created. He never started by pouring water on the distant mountains and they eventually run to the sea. He made them in an instant. So it is with the lights in the sky.

instantaneously huh, how do you know it was in a instant.
 
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BeyondET

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And what were the boundary conditions and laws of physics at the moment of creation?

We know energy cannot be created under the laws of thermodynamics we see today, yet energy was created at the instant of the BB, so at that moment God hadn’t set the laws of physics, which would include putting a finite limit on the speed of light.

When God flung the universe out like an unfolding sheet, and the newly created universe was expanded to however many billions of light years in diameter, He didn’t wait for a hundred billion, or whatever the number is, for stars and galaxies to get that far away, they were placed there instantly.

And they left a trail of light behind them on their journey, thus a stars distance of ten BY does not prove that the universe is actually that old.

a day is not a instant, where does the idea of a instant universe come from?
 
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tdidymas

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And what were the boundary conditions and laws of physics at the moment of creation?

We know energy cannot be created under the laws of thermodynamics we see today, yet energy was created at the instant of the BB, so at that moment God hadn’t set the laws of physics, which would include putting a finite limit on the speed of light.

When God flung the universe out like an unfolding sheet, and the newly created universe was expanded to however many billions of light years in diameter, He didn’t wait for a hundred billion, or whatever the number of years is, for stars and galaxies to get that far away, they were placed there instantly.

And they left a trail of light behind them on their journey, thus a stars distance of ten BY does not prove that the universe is actually that old.
Jesus clearly taught everything Moses wrote as literal and factual, so that settles that issue.

Moses made nothing up. Everything he wrote in the law and the prophets was given to Moses during the forty days he spent with God of Mount Sinai.

If science appears to contradict the Genesis creation account, then science is wrong with incomplete knowledge and/or wrong assumptions.

The Genesis account was correct that the universe had a sudden beginning in one moment of time, even when the accepted cosmological model was uniformity, aka the steady state model, which was that the universe always existed and had no beginning.

Science finally caught up to Genesis with the Big Bang theory, which is the accepted cosmology today.

Maranatha

Ok, I see that you have a strong opinion that follows the YUC theory. Yet your words fall to the ground, because you merely espouse your opinion and make assertions without any basis in fact. Rather than merely argue, why don't you try to bring facts to the table? Merely claiming that things appeared instantaneously doesn't make it so, and besides that, you speak of the BB as if you believed it actually happened. Doesn't that contradict your instant universe theory?

And doesn't your idea that "science finally caught up" with the Big Bang theory contradict your idea that science is wrong? How do you even theorize that there was a big bang, if you think that Gen. 1 is literal? There's something wrong with the picture you're drawing.
 
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chad kincham

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Ok, I see that you have a strong opinion that follows the YUC theory. Yet your words fall to the ground, because you merely espouse your opinion and make assertions without any basis in fact. Rather than merely argue, why don't you try to bring facts to the table? Merely claiming that things appeared instantaneously doesn't make it so, and besides that, you speak of the BB as if you believed it actually happened. Doesn't that contradict your instant universe theory?

And doesn't your idea that "science finally caught up" with the Big Bang theory contradict your idea that science is wrong? How do you even theorize that there was a big bang, if you think that Gen. 1 is literal? There's something wrong with the picture you're drawing.
Science is not always right, and not always wrong.

My point, even atheistic secular science can stumble onto truth occasionally, when their presuppositions and biased interpretation of the facts don’t interfere.

BTW scientists strongly resisted and disliked the BB theory - they liked the steady state model, because it contradicted the Genesis account of a sudden beginning of the universe in a point in time - in fact the name Big Bang was mocking derision of the primeval or primordial atom theory, by Astronomer Fred Hoyle, and to his chagrin, that name for it stuck.

And Einstein did what biased scientists frequently do - he lmuch preferred the steady state model, and,when the data pointed to the expansion of the universe from a central point, pointing to a Big Bang singularity, he invented his infamous cosmological constant, to make the math work, so data would fit his bias.

Just like evolutionists do.
 
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miamited

Ted
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Hi guys,

I believe that Hebrews 11:3 sums up the understanding of God's children:

By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

For me, anyway, it's not about whether or not science can 'prove' some contradictory theory of how all that is came to be. Once understanding the God that is revealed to me in the Scriptures, I also understood that miracles can't be scientifically proven or disproven. There's not a single piece of, what man calls scientific theory or understanding, that can explain in logical and natural terms, how an embryo became attached to the uterine wall of a simple Jewish girl in Israel about 2,000 years ago. There just isn't any explanation...other than it was the work of God. Whose works are not done by natural and logical progressions of events, but merely by the command of Him who lives forever.

She just was pregnant by the work and desire of God. She had never had relations with a man. There was never a moment in time where a man's sperm traveled through her vaginal tube to find an egg to penetrate and fertilize to become a living zygot. One moment she had a barren womb and the next, by the will of God, she had a baby forming and growing in her body. There is no scientific speculation that can explain that.

There was a point in time when a fairly large group of people stood on the shore of a fairly vast body of water, known as the Red Sea. They were being pursued and it was God's desire that they not perish, but be saved to continue the work for which He had built them up from the loins of Abraham to do. In a mere matter of moments that vast and deep sea just split, parted, divided so that there was literally a wall of water, which itself is a scientific impossibility, so that they could escape to freedom. Not only that but that same 'miraculous' parting of that sea, was then closed up and the deep waters drowned all of the pursuing soldiers.

There's no scientific, logical, natural explanation as 'how' such a thing could have happened. Winds that might be strong enough to hold open such great chasm of water would not then have allowed people with all of their life possessions to just pass through. Some mighty earthquake that might have caused such a split in the water only, the land underneath it was dry and at least firm and level enough, and dry, that the people just walked through the open chasm without slipping and sliding in a muddy bog, was an impossible explanation. God just willed that the water split and stand as a sentinel on both sides of them. God just willed that in a mere moment the dirt and sludge underneath where that sea had just been, was dry and firm as the thousands of people with their belongings, and a lot of the belongings of the Egyptians, just passed through. A seabed that would, by all natural properties have taken days just for the ground left open to dry up and be firm enough to walk across the chasm. Then pretty much just as quickly closed up and swallowed up all of the pursuing army.

By faith, I believe that those events happened just as God's word tells me that it did. I can't prove it or disprove it and neither can anyone else. I just believe by faith that the events did happen, despite any supposed evidence that might try to convince me otherwise. Why? Because the Scriptures contain a fair amount of prophecies that prove, for my mind anyway, that there is a God who knows the end from the beginning and now, having come to know Jesus, I know that He loves me. He cares about me, and as His Scriptures declare...He cannot lie. There is no reason for Him to lie even if He could. What? Does God live in fear that I might chastise Him for something and therefore He needs to make up lies for me? God fears no man. His lip doesn't tremble because some man may not approve of what He's done. Why would God lie? He's not running for some political office of 'best god ever', and therefore must lie to me to get me on His side. Jesus said that God's word is truth and knowing Jesus, and who he is, I believe him.

So, here we are at a crossroads. The Scriptures give a fairly concise account of 'how' this realm of creation, from the billions of stars in the night sky, to every molecule of matter upon the earth was created. The Scriptures then give a fairly concise genealogical record of 'when' all of this creating took place. The science of man, however, tells us that such an account cannot be believed. That it's absolutely impossible because the things that God created don't act that way. That everything works on a natural and logical level and, therefore, the creation must be a loooooooong progression of events. Reason number one: The light of a star some 100's or 1000's of light years distant from us couldn't be seen by our eyes or our telescopes unless this realm existed at least as long as it takes for the light of that distant star to get to us.

Such an understanding completely discounts the miraculous power of God. Such an understanding would then deny that the Jewish woman in Israel had conceived a child without sperm somehow being put in her body. Such an understanding would also deny that a deep and vast sea could just open up, in a mere moment of time to allow the passage of thousands of people, as a wall of water stood as a sentinel on both their right hand and on their left hand. And that wall of water on either side of them held that position for at least a period of time that it would take for the thousands with their belongings to pass through.

But for God's children, truth is in His word and not in scientific explanations and understandings. God's children live with the understanding that by faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. It is really, for us, of no account that man says that the works of God are impossible.

Now, I can't tell you 'how' God made the light of those distant stars visible upon the earth, but my faith tells me that when they were all created, that every one of them was visible to Adam just a few days later. That Adam could see the stars that comprise the big dipper and the little dipper and Orion's belt and arms and legs. That as he lay down in the cool of the evening to go to sleep, he looked up into the heavens and saw even more stars than we see when we lay down to sleep because there was no surrounding light to blind any of them out.

That's what my faith tells me. Now, I fully understand that if one's faith is in the 'truth' of scientific theory, then they're not going to believe me. That's ok with me and I don't particularly feel the need to 'prove' it to them because I know that proving such things as God's miracles is a futile endeavor. I would just caution them, if they claim to be of the fellowship of God's people, that God does say that His righteous ones shall live by faith. I believe He's referring to that same faith that is explained in this passage of Hebrews. That He's asking His children to live by a strength of faith that understands that all that God has revealed to us in His word, is truth. God has no reason to lie to us. He is beholden to us for nothing!!!

Now, some of the fellowship will explain that while God isn't lying to us, we just don't understand the genre in which He was explaining things to us. For me, that argument doesn't hold water. Again because I now know Jesus and through him, and the work of God's Spirit, I understand that we live in a created realm. Created in mere moments in time. Created for a purpose which is explained in the last words of the Revelation.

And I heard a great voice out of Heaven, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them; and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them and be their God.

God has created this realm of existence for a purpose and He has been working to accomplish His purpose since the beginning. He will cull from those many, many millions who have ever existed a body of people from every tribe and tongue and nation; a body of people who will eternally love and honor and worship Him for who He is. A people who will understand that the very reason they exist is because He created both them and all that exists to sustain the life of man. The earth and the heavens are a created realm in which this God has worked out a plan in which some might be saved for Him. What the Scriptures call a 'priesthood' of believers. That's why God created this realm in mere moments and will likewise bring it all to a close just about as quickly. And those who have lived by faith in Him who lives forever will share in the wedding feast of the Lamb and gain eternal life with Him where there will be no more tears or crying. No more hardships of life that we now experience because, in this realm since the days of Adam and Eve, man denies God His rightful place in their heart.

God bless you all,
Ted
 
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