Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

zoidar · Sep 28, 2021

Saint Steven said:
So, you are a Christian out of fear of hell?

No, not at all! But that was the reason I turned to God for forgiveness. As I got forgiven and saved I started to love Jesus.

I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
— Galatians 2:20

zoidar · Sep 28, 2021

MMXX said:
Universalism doesn't say there's no hell. Just that hell doesn't consist of everlasting torment. Personally I'd be terrified of spending five minutes in hell. As for heaven, if I didn't really love God, I wouldn't want to be in the place where loving and worshiping God was the primary focus.

A person need to know there is no hope at all without Jesus. If there is just one straw of hope without Jesus, they will cling to that straw just to able to live their own life. That's how it was for me. It was not until I understood I had no hope all, I wanted to give up Buddhism and be a Christian.

spiritfilledjm · Sep 28, 2021

Der Alte said:
Some folks change Matthew 25:46 to read

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into age during correction.
But the word "kolasis" translated "correction" in the faux versions occurs one other time in the NT 1 Jn 4:18

1 John 4:18
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment.[kolasis] He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
Note the one who has "kolasis"/torment is not made perfect i.e. no correction.
Does "aionios" mean eternal or does it mean an indeterminate age?

John 3:15-16
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionios] life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionios] life.
In these two verses Jesus parallels "aionios" with "should not perish," twice.
Did Jesus lie when He said that "aionios life" was a life that never perishes? By definition "aionios" means eternal.

Good point. It very well could be that they do burn eternally, it very well could be that they are thrown into the burning pit and die as Revelation 20:14-15 puts it. Either way, those who do not accept Christ as Lord and Savior, during their natural lives on this earth, burn in the end.

Andrewn · Sep 28, 2021

MMXX said:
I don't see the doctrine of universal reconciliation having all that much if any less to back it up, than the doctrine of everlasting torment. As I see it, it does come down to a matter of preference regarding which one seems correct.

I agree with you that "Believing or not believing in either UR or ECT will not save or condemn anyone." But it's not only a matter of preference." I think it's a matter of reading the Bible correctly in an attempt to know the mind of God.

Having said this, it is clear that on every issue, a lot of people are traditionalists and find comfort in sticking with the opinion of their group. Others, perhaps need to be scared with ECT in order to behave properly or to feel superior to the rest of humanity or for other reasons that were discussed in the OP.

Ultimately, whether one believes UR or ECT does not affect Christians, who are already saved. These are only views of what might happen to non-believers.

Saint Steven · Sep 28, 2021

zoidar said:
No, not at all! But that was the reason I turned to God for forgiveness. As I got forgiven and saved I started to love Jesus.

I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
— Galatians 2:20

Good testimony, thanks.
So, in retrospect, you would not have turned to Christ without the threat of hell?

Hopefully you understand that there are a whole sector of individuals that refuse to acknowledge a God that would burn people in hell for all eternity with no hope of escape.

There isn't much hope that we will stop the Damnationist teachings about hell. However, we are offering a gospel to those who would not otherwise be willing to come to God. And just to be clear, we aren't encouraging them to not seek God now.

I was most vocal about this on the topic about whether Christians would follow Jesus if there was no afterlife. I was appalled at the response of the majority that would not want to follow Jesus if there was no afterlife.

Can you find it in yourself to be supportive of UR from this perspective? That it fits a certain demographic that would otherwise not accept God? (due to a forever burning hell)

Andrewn · Sep 28, 2021

Clare73 said:
You cannot separate God and Jesus in loving God, or in salvation to eternal life. Jesus is God. Jesus is the only way to the Father (John 14:6). "Love God" means believing in and obeying God, in the One he has sent, who states that all those who do not believe in the Son are condemned already (John 3:18), that the wrath of God remains on them (John 3:36). There is no loving God apart from loving and obeying Jesus Christ, the One he as sent.

Now that's rich!

Saint Steven · Sep 28, 2021

spiritfilledjm said:
Good point. It very well could be that they do burn eternally, it very well could be that they are thrown into the burning pit and die as Revelation 20:14-15 puts it. Either way, those who do not accept Christ as Lord and Savior, during their natural lives on this earth, burn in the end.

You might find this interesting.

Edom
Edom was an ancient kingdom in Transjordan located between Moab to the northeast, the Arabah to the west and the Arabian Desert to the south and east. Most of its former territory is now divided between Israel and Jordan.

The destruction of Edom uses the same exaggerated language descriptions as hell in the Bible. Yet none of it lasted forever as it clearly says. And you can certainly pass through it today. For this prophecy to be taken literally it would need to be a smoking tar pit today with a bypass to get around it.

Isaiah 34:8-11
For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause.
9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur;
her land will become blazing pitch!
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever pass through it again.
11 The desert owl and screech owl will possess it;
the great owl and the raven will nest there.
God will stretch out over Edom
the measuring line of chaos
and the plumb line of desolation.

Andrewn · Sep 28, 2021

Isaiah 41:10 said:
But in the end, scripture has verses about hell, and so the idea of universalism seems to be unbiblical.

Of course there is hell. UR advocates do not deny this. They only hope that those who are confined to hell might find the love and faith of God there. And there is a lot of biblical evidence that they will.

Andrewn · Sep 28, 2021

Albion said:
To some degree, you are right. However, they do not go with the testimony of Scripture, preferring to make a few inconclusive verses "proof texts" for their view while ignoring the weight of Scripture which very much goes the other way.

It is unfortunate that this thread turned into UR advocates providing "proof texts" for their view. A more conductive approach would have been ECT advocates providing "proof texts" for their view.

spiritfilledjm · Sep 28, 2021

Saint Steven said:
You might find this interesting.

Edom
Edom was an ancient kingdom in Transjordan located between Moab to the northeast, the Arabah to the west and the Arabian Desert to the south and east. Most of its former territory is now divided between Israel and Jordan.

The destruction of Edom uses the same exaggerated language descriptions as hell in the Bible. Yet none of it lasted forever as it clearly says. And you can certainly pass through it today. For this prophecy to be taken literally it would need to be a smoking tar pit today with a bypass to get around it.

Isaiah 34:8-11
For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause.
9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur;
her land will become blazing pitch!
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever pass through it again.
11 The desert owl and screech owl will possess it;
the great owl and the raven will nest there.
God will stretch out over Edom
the measuring line of chaos
and the plumb line of desolation.

I understand what you're saying. Edom still met destruction though, ultimately. Sure, the end for an unbeliever may not be as bad as the Bible put it. God could merely choose to wipe them painlessly from existence. Like Edom though, ultimately, one who does not accept Christ as Lord and Savior will not see the Kingdom of God. How God chooses to actually do it is his prerogative.

Saint Steven · Sep 28, 2021

Andrewn said:
Of course there is hell. UR advocates do not deny this. They only hope that those who are confined to hell might find the love and faith of God there. And there is a lot of biblical evidence that they will.

Right. Good post. Thanks.
I believe everyone goes to "hell". (if you will)

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

Saint Steven · Sep 28, 2021

spiritfilledjm said:
I understand what you're saying. Edom still met destruction though, ultimately. Sure, the end for an unbeliever may not be as bad as the Bible put it. God could merely choose to wipe them painlessly from existence. Like Edom though, ultimately, one who does not accept Christ as Lord and Savior will not see the Kingdom of God. How God chooses to actually do it is his prerogative.

Did Jesus die to save us from God?

Albion · Sep 28, 2021

MMXX said:
What you're calling the weight of scripture isn't ignored. I've seen it addressed.

I don't know which posts you have in mind, but while I could agree that the point wasn't entirely ignored, the respondents did not deal with it in any meaningful way but instead rejected it out of hand. So from what I recall, they got the point but it had no effect--no counter-argument about why that imbalance shouldn't count for anything, etc. That's not counting those who said that the Bible doesn't mean anything or that it's biased or mistranslated.

And pretty satisfactorily as well...I'm not saying I'm positive they're right, but from what I've seen all together no stone has been left unturned.

You could win that argument if you can point me to one of those posts which acknowledged that the weight of Scripture's information on this topic is strongly on the side of rejecting the idea of Universal Salvation, and that this is important.

From what I've seen they've offered more substance than you seem to be giving them credit for.

I guess we just disagree at this point in time.

But I'm sensing maybe you're beginning to get frustrated at this point....

That's probably correct to say. I too have been thinking that the discussion has been going in circles and that there is little to be gained by doing it one more time.

spiritfilledjm · Sep 28, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Did Jesus die to save us from God?

Jesus died to save us from ourselves, our sin.

Albion · Sep 28, 2021

Andrewn said:
It is unfortunate that this thread turned into UR advocates providing "proof texts" for their view. A more conductive approach would have been ECT advocates providing "proof texts" for their view.

"The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41), “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24), “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10).

"The punishment of the wicked in hell is as never ending as the bliss of the righteous in heaven. Jesus Himself indicates that punishment in hell is just as everlasting as life in heaven (Matthew 25:46). The wicked are forever subject to the fury and the wrath of God. Those in hell will acknowledge the perfect justice of God (Psalm 76:10). Those who are in hell will know that their punishment is just and that they alone are to blame (Deuteronomy 32:3-5). Yes, hell is real. Yes, hell is a place of torment and punishment that lasts forever and ever, with no end. Praise God that, through Jesus, we can escape this eternal fate (John 3:16, 18, 36)."

From
https//www.gotquestions.org/hell-real-eternal.html

2PhiloVoid · Sep 28, 2021

Albion said:
I don't know which posts you have in mind, but while I could agree that the point wasn't entirely ignored, the respondents did not deal with it in any meaningful way but instead rejected it out of hand. So from what I recall, they got the point but it had no effect--no counter-argument about why that imbalance shouldn't count for anything, etc. That's not counting those who said that the Bible doesn't mean anything or that it's biased or mistranslated.

You could win that argument if you can point me to one of those posts which acknowledged that the weight of Scripture's information on this topic is strongly on the side of rejecting the idea of Universal Salvation, and that this is important.

I guess we just disagree at this point in time.

That's probably correct to say. I too have been thinking that the discussion has been going in circles and that there is little to be gained by doing it one more time.

...oh, 'com on! Where's your sense of sportsmanship! ?? ^_^

Albion · Sep 28, 2021

I think it's still alive, but as for this thread, it may have played out somewhere after the "six hundred posts" marker.

Hmm · Sep 28, 2021

2PhiloVoid said:
...oh, 'com on! Where's your sense of sportsmanship! ??

You see the discussion of whether God as revealed by Christ Is someone who is capable of sending the people we love to eternal conscious torment as a sport? Really?

Hmm · Sep 28, 2021

Albion said:
"The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41), “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24), “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10).

"The punishment of the wicked in hell is as never ending as the bliss of the righteous in heaven. Jesus Himself indicates that punishment in hell is just as everlasting as life in heaven (Matthew 25:46). The wicked are forever subject to the fury and the wrath of God. Those in hell will acknowledge the perfect justice of God (Psalm 76:10). Those who are in hell will know that their punishment is just and that they alone are to blame (Deuteronomy 32:3-5). Yes, hell is real. Yes, hell is a place of torment and punishment that lasts forever and ever, with no end. Praise God that, through Jesus, we can escape this eternal fate (John 3:16, 18, 36)."

From
https//www.gotquestions.org/hell-real-eternal.html

Thanks for the proof-texts

Hmm · Sep 28, 2021

Albion said:
That's probably correct to say. I too have been thinking that the discussion has been going in circles and that there is little to be gained by doing it one more time.

Albion said:
I think it's still alive, but as for this thread, it may have played out somewhere after the "six hundred posts" marker.

You say you are weary of the discussion and yet you still take part :scratch:

Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

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