saved by grace or by works

jameshjr

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So I went for a walk with someone I know from my church for the first time. We eventually got around to talking about Jesus.


He asked me how i came to the faith, and I informed him that i had spent most of my life looking for truth and that i finally came to christianity and found it to be true.


He then went on to say that all religions teach the same thing : do good.


I said, is that not where Christianity is different: in that we are saved by grace through faith. To which i cannot remember his response.


More was said with which i had an issue, and i soon asked him if he thought Jesus is the son of God, to which he replied: He was born of the spirit.


Now this has thrown me through a loop. I am new to the faith (around 18 months) and he has been going to church a long time.


I figured that everyone who went to church believed that Jesus was the son of God and believed in salvation through faith, and not salvation through works.


I have thought about this and read Matthew's gospel; but only the red letter (what Jesus said).


I found one passage where Jesus mentioned his sacrifice for the remission of sins: Matthew 26:28. Which could be interpreted many ways based upon that one line of text.


To counter the idea of being saved by grace through faith is the concluding text of Matthew 28:18-20. Which i think could be argued that Jesus wants us to do as he taught (leaning more towards deeds over grace through faith).


I know that Paul further went into the theme of salvation through grace (why should i trust Pauls teaching), but if we were to go purely off of just Marks gospel, then could it not fairly be argued that Jesus teaches that we are saved by works rather than grace just like every other religion?


I'd really like some help with this, as my faith idea of my faith has been shaken.


P.s. i do beleive that Jesus is the son of God and has clear authority given to him from the Father, and therefore whatever he taught, i believe is what i should (try to) follow, and would like to clarify exactly what that is.
 

GOD Shines Forth!

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So I went for a walk with someone I know from my church for the first time. We eventually got around to talking about Jesus.


He asked me how i came to the faith, and I informed him that i had spent most of my life looking for truth and that i finally came to christianity and found it to be true.


He then went on to say that all religions teach the same thing : do good.


I said, is that not where Christianity is different: in that we are saved by grace through faith. To which i cannot remember his response.


More was said with which i had an issue, and i soon asked him if he thought Jesus is the son of God, to which he replied: He was born of the spirit.


Now this has thrown me through a loop. I am new to the faith (around 18 months) and he has been going to church a long time.


I figured that everyone who went to church believed that Jesus was the son of God and believed in salvation through faith, and not salvation through works.


I have thought about this and read Matthew's gospel; but only the red letter (what Jesus said).


I found one passage where Jesus mentioned his sacrifice for the remission of sins: Matthew 26:28. Which could be interpreted many ways based upon that one line of text.


To counter the idea of being saved by grace through faith is the concluding text of Matthew 28:18-20. Which i think could be argued that Jesus wants us to do as he taught (leaning more towards deeds over grace through faith).


I know that Paul further went into the theme of salvation through grace (why should i trust Pauls teaching), but if we were to go purely off of just Marks gospel, then could it not fairly be argued that Jesus teaches that we are saved by works rather than grace just like every other religion?


I'd really like some help with this, as my faith idea of my faith has been shaken.


P.s. i do beleive that Jesus is the son of God and has clear authority given to him from the Father, and therefore whatever he taught, i believe is what i should (try to) follow, and would like to clarify exactly what that is.

This might be helpful if you have 30 min. sometime…

 
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sandman

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I know that Paul further went into the theme of salvation through grace (why should i trust Pauls teaching), but if we were to go purely off of just Marks gospel, then could it not fairly be argued that Jesus teaches that we are saved by works rather than grace just like every other religion?

This is why you trust Paul’s teaching

Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.


2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:


If all scripture is given by inspiration of God or given by revelation of Jesus Christ that includes everything …Including the words in RED and Black in the gospels….. It’s not by the will of man.


2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Private in verse 21 is the Greek word idios meaning “ones own”

More was said with which i had an issue, and i soon asked him if he thought Jesus is the son of God, to which he replied: He was born of the spirit.
I have no idea what your friend meant by this ....He was/is the son of God.

Salvation by works is at the root of all deceiving religions ...
You are not going to find salvation by grace in the gospels, it wasn’t available until after Pentecost.
 
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com7fy8

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More was said with which i had an issue, and i soon asked him if he thought Jesus is the son of God, to which he replied: He was born of the spirit.


Now this has thrown me through a loop. I am new to the faith (around 18 months) and he has been going to church a long time.


I figured that everyone who went to church believed that Jesus was the son of God and believed in salvation through faith, and not salvation through works.
"Test all things; hold fast what is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

We need to check even what our trustworthy people say and do. If you are getting to know someone in your church, be ready to discover whatever is really true about that person.

I went to a church, once, which had beliefs and practices which Trinitarians consider to be wrong. But there was a woman there who seemed to understand me and help me. One day, I told her what the church's organization officially taught, and she said something like, "Oh, I did not know that; I just come here."

But she was someone who helped me, at that time.

People in the same church can have more or less unity of beliefs, and ones pastoring a church can have things they do not agree on. But ones might say they have things they don't agree on, but they love each other and appreciate each other. And they can work well together.

So, I would not assume about anyone. If there is something important to know about someone, you might simply ask that person to speak for oneself.

But, of course, if it keeps turning out that someone is questionable and you are not sure the person is trustworthy . . . I personally am very careful about asking someone something if I don't trust him or her, because I am not satisfied the person will tell me the truth. So, I listen to and observe people I find to be in question, but share with ones who feed me good example and counsel.

But even with the ones genuine, they can turn out to be wrong, in some way; this is why God's word says to have "longsuffering" ready >

"with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love;" (Ephesians 4:2)
 
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spiritfilledjm

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Without works, one has a knowledge but no faith. However, without faith, works are useless. The real question is, what are works? Are they doing nice things for people, donating to charity, helping out a friend or even a stranger? Or is a "work" something more, something within yourself that folks don't see. I believe a "work" is more along the lines of taking up your cross daily, fighting against temptation so that it may not turn into desire. Fighting against one's flesh, that is work. That is the work that is a part of faith.
 
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com7fy8

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He then went on to say that all religions teach the same thing : do good.
What is said to be good can be different for each religion . . . and for each person :)

I offer you can do well to read every word of each gospel and of Paul's sharing and the other New Testament writings. I offer they all agree in their correct meaning. So, beware of how ones talk down on any of the New Testament writings.

Ones can pick on certain words, and give them meanings which contradict. But God's meaning for every part of His word does not contradict what He means any other part of His message.

And any earlier scripture also can be used by God to help you find out how to share with God, submit to Him in His peace, share as family with other children of God, and love and care with hope for any people who are not Christians. So make sure you are getting this love meaning as you study and share and hear messages.

And right understanding and the right people will help you to grow in how Jesus is and loves. So, if I keep finding that someone is not blessing me like this, I be very careful how much I am involved with him or her.
 
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Albion

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James, even though your friend goes to your church, he sounds like some sort of Unitarian who thinks all religions are equal paths to the same end, blah blah blah. None of that is compatible with Christianity, as you knew.

And when he turned aside the reference to Christ as the Son of God, saying "He was born of the spirit," this most likely was meant to say that Jesus was a special religious figure but not God in the flesh, not the eternal Son of the Father, or anything that would put him into a category above the prophets, gurus, savants, etc. who have led other of the world's great religions
 
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jameshjr

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This might be helpful if you have 30 min. sometime…



i had to watch this twice, but i think i understand what he is saying: There are two gospels: one for the Jews and one for the gentiles which was given to paul but not referenced in the scripture.

If this is true then the question resolves again to the extent to which i/ we can trust Paul.

Paul is in the bible and therefore shouldn't his word be as true as moses's is/ was?

i only doubt because, as i said,my faith has been shaken and i have seen a few comments about the subject (via google) stating that paul was kicked in the head by a donkey and then corrupted by satan to teach the doctrine of salvation in order to corrupt believers and it got to me.

i will pray over this and hopefully reach peace over the subject once my mind is settled.
 
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jameshjr

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This is why you trust Paul’s teaching

Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.


2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:


If all scripture is given by inspiration of God or given by revelation of Jesus Christ that includes everything …Including the words in RED and Black in the gospels….. It’s not by the will of man.


2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Private in verse 21 is the Greek word idios meaning “ones own”


I have no idea what your friend meant by this ....He was/is the son of God.

Salvation by works is at the root of all deceiving religions ...
You are not going to find salvation by grace in the gospels, it wasn’t available until after Pentecost.


thank you for the message. as i said i am shaken (with him being my senior in the church). and as i mentioned i was worried by peoples accounts of Paul being kicked in the head by a donkey and used by satan to corrupt beleivers.

i appreciate your message and will give myself some time to settle over this.
 
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jameshjr

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James, even though your friend goes to your church, he sounds like some sort of Unitarian who thinks all religions are equal paths to the same end, blah blah blah. None of that is compatible with Christianity, as you knew.

And when he turned aside the reference to Christ as the Son of God, saying "He was born of the spirit," this most likely was meant to say that Jesus was a special religious figure but not God in the flesh, not the eternal Son of the Father, or anything that would put him into a category above the prophets, gurus, savants, etc. who have led other of the world's great religions


Hello Albion, thank you for your message. From my conversation with him, he does think the way you describe.

To be fair to him, if you just take the gospels (matthew and marks at least) then i can see the argument that we are saved by works. However, as i mentioned, after watching the video that was posted, i understand where/ why pauls message of salvation comes from, and to ignore it, would be to judge that part of the bible were untrue, which would in turn undermine the authority of the whole book.

I think from his point of view he does see that all religions are valid, as he does not believe that Jesus is the son of God (therefore above all other prophet/ religious leaders).

He mentioned that if we discriminate against other religions then we become like the pharisees Jesus criticized so much when He was on Earth i.e. becoming dogmatic and focusing on religion (pauls writing) rather than Jesus' teaching.
 
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jameshjr

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Thank you all for your messages, i believe i have touched on all the points that were made in the responses i have written.

i am absolutely cautious of all opinions which do not correspond to the teachings in the bible,and wary of anyone whom contradicts them. i think i am shocked by the unorthodoxy of someone so senior in my church. it will take me some time to get over this. i will pray over this and the truth of the matter will last.

thank you all, again.
 
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Albion

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He mentioned that if we discriminate against other religions then we become like the pharisees Jesus criticized so much when He was on Earth i.e. becoming dogmatic and focusing on religion (pauls writing) rather than Jesus' teaching.
I'd have to disagree with that POV concerning the Pharisees. Jesus's criticism of the Pharisees was mainly about them being self-righteous religious show-offs.

But the friend's comment there strikes me as just fluff, something that a believer in the equality of all religious faiths likes to say. Christians, in truth, are not much interested in discriminating against other religions.
 
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dqhall

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So I went for a walk with someone I know from my church for the first time. We eventually got around to talking about Jesus.


He asked me how i came to the faith, and I informed him that i had spent most of my life looking for truth and that i finally came to christianity and found it to be true.


He then went on to say that all religions teach the same thing : do good.


I said, is that not where Christianity is different: in that we are saved by grace through faith. To which i cannot remember his response.


More was said with which i had an issue, and i soon asked him if he thought Jesus is the son of God, to which he replied: He was born of the spirit.


Now this has thrown me through a loop. I am new to the faith (around 18 months) and he has been going to church a long time.


I figured that everyone who went to church believed that Jesus was the son of God and believed in salvation through faith, and not salvation through works.


I have thought about this and read Matthew's gospel; but only the red letter (what Jesus said).


I found one passage where Jesus mentioned his sacrifice for the remission of sins: Matthew 26:28. Which could be interpreted many ways based upon that one line of text.


To counter the idea of being saved by grace through faith is the concluding text of Matthew 28:18-20. Which i think could be argued that Jesus wants us to do as he taught (leaning more towards deeds over grace through faith).


I know that Paul further went into the theme of salvation through grace (why should i trust Pauls teaching), but if we were to go purely off of just Marks gospel, then could it not fairly be argued that Jesus teaches that we are saved by works rather than grace just like every other religion?


I'd really like some help with this, as my faith idea of my faith has been shaken.


P.s. i do beleive that Jesus is the son of God and has clear authority given to him from the Father, and therefore whatever he taught, i believe is what i should (try to) follow, and would like to clarify exactly what that is.
From Christ’s Sermon on the Mount,

Matthew 7:15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

If you are saved by faith, should you find ways to help people?
 
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jameshjr

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I'd have to disagree with that POV concerning the Pharisees. Jesus's criticism of the Pharisees was mainly about them being self-righteous religious show-offs.

But the friend's comment there strikes me as just fluff, something that a believer in the equality of all religious faiths likes to say. Christians, in truth, are not much interested in discriminating against other religions.

i take your point on the pharisees and from memory i agree with you.

i have been thinking over what was said and am fairly certain he does believe in the equality of religions. he also put the notion out there that all faiths should be able to come to the church and worship.

I also agree with your final point. i am against discriminating against other faiths, but i do believe that ours is true and i think i/we should be able to share/discuss that with others and not have that be deemed as intolerant.
 
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jameshjr

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From Christ’s Sermon on the Mount,

Matthew 7:15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

If you are saved by faith, should you find ways to help people?


on your final point, if we are saved by faith then we do not need to help people. but if we have faith then fruit of that faith would manifest in a need/ desire to help others.

as to your quote, i agree and judging a man by the fruit that they bear is a good way of determining their faith. i do not know him well enough to comment on this, but he is active in my church.
 
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There is nothing we can do with our own strength inorder to be saved. We are saved purely by His Grace, but because we take up the nature of Christ when He takes over, we then start die to the things of the flesh. E.g Christ does not steal, kill or covet another's belongings, neither do we. As Christ Jesus is, so are we in this world.
 
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com7fy8

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I have thought about this and read Matthew's gospel; but only the red letter (what Jesus said).


I found one passage where Jesus mentioned his sacrifice for the remission of sins: Matthew 26:28. Which could be interpreted many ways based upon that one line of text.
Let's see > Matthew 26:28 >

"'For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.'" (Matthew 26:28)

Well, this fits with how we do not save our own selves. But Jesus is God's own Son, the only One who can do anything really right, and He died for us so we may be saved; so His work on the cross has saved us, not we dying for our own sins . . . simple enough, I would say.

But becoming saved does not stop with getting a clean slate. On the cross Jesus has reconciled us with God >

"For God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them" > in 2 Corinthians 5:19.

So, we see how Jesus died for us, shedding His blood so our sins may be forgiven. And this depended on who and how Jesus is, not on how we have been and our ability. This was done before we of this time . . . the 21st century . . . were born in sin! So, we have been saved by Jesus . . . by means of His grace through faith.

I know that Paul further went into the theme of salvation through grace (why should i trust Pauls teaching), but if we were to go purely off of just Marks gospel, then could it not fairly be argued that Jesus teaches that we are saved by works rather than grace just like every other religion?
It is clear that Jesus did not have us do the work of dying and suffering for our own sins. And Paul says it is not works we have done. So, there is no disagreement. And Paul helps us get more out of all Jesus means by what He did and said while He was on this earth.

In Paul's message quoted above, I see something. Yes, God in Christ was working so we have our sins forgiven. But, with this needs to come reconciliation, not only forgiveness. I understand that reconciliation goes beyond simply getting pardoned for wrong deeds. There is a change of our relationship with God, in reconciliation.

And this change is not only in our standing and position with God, but there is change of how we are personally relating. Yes, we have become adopted to be God's children; so indeed our standing and position with God has changed, in becoming reconciled. But a child has active relating with Mommy and Daddy and with the child's brothers and sisters. So, our reconciliation has brought us into our very different way of relating with God on an ongoing basis. This includes how every child of God is "called in body" to constantly submit to God in His peace > Colossians 3:15; this is in our basic Christian calling, how we personally relate with God in His own peace, and discover how He rules each of us in our hearts. And I can give you various scriptures to show this of Paul's writing fits with things Jesus did and said. But now I wish to talk about reconciliation with God has changed our relating with Him >

We were living in sin, relating with God by going against Him, by not being in His love sharing personally with Him. We were not personally submitting to Him and His guiding in His peace. And how was God relating with us, each of us personally while we lived in sin? >

"God resists the proud" > in James 4:6 and also in 1 Peter 5:5.

So, I see now, God was very personally relating and communicating with every one of us while we were not His children: by means of His personal resistance. And this was very caring, because His resistance helped to keep us from getting into as much pain and trouble and tragedy as we could have, while living in Satan's kingdom. All the horribleness of this evil world now is just a glimpse of how things could be if it were not for God's resistance. And so I can see how it is theo-logical that God would have Paul tell us to give thanks to God, in any situation >

"in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you." (1 Thessalonians 5:18)

We thank Him for keeping a lid on evil, and even using it for His good, somehow. Plus, in our relating with God, we thank Him for how He is caring for us who are in submission to Him >

God "gives grace to the humble." (in James 4:6 and also in 1 Peter 5:5)

Now, back to being first reconciled > we have changed from being in a run-in with God's resistance; and we "first trusted in Christ" > in Ephesians 1:12.

So, in our becoming reconciled in order to get saved, we began by trusting in Jesus. And do you think trusting is very personal? Is there personal relating and communication included in coming to trust in someone? However, it may be that as a sinner you never came to trust in any human, at all. But you might have been so busy with trying to use certain people for what you wanted; you trusted people only so you could use them, perhaps; so in some way we were not really loving people, but we were in love with what we hoped to use them to get. You could have had a closer and more trusting intimacy with a pet, but that came only with how you could control the pet, right? With Jesus, we need to trust Him with all the control . . . how He rules us in His peace. Jesus is our Lord of all; and we benefit from His ruling control the best, by how He rules us in His own peace which He shares with us > John 14:27. And Paul agrees with this, by telling us to be ruled by God's peace > Colossians 3:15.

So, we needed how God changed us and taught us and deeply corrected us, so we could discover how to trust in Jesus, and then continue relating with Him in growing trust . . . needing this, all the time > as Jesus says,

"'Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29)

A "yoke" has an ox in constant connection and relating with the person who is caring for and using and guiding the ox. And, by the way, the whip they use, I have read, is not for smacking the ox in order to drive it, but the whip is used for contacting the ox in the certain that the ox is trained to respond for each type of contact . . . and this along with voice commands. I think, then, they do not just crack the whip in the air or on the ox's skin; the ox actually has very sensitive skin so slight touching is enough.

And note how Jesus says His is "gentle and lowly in heart". So, I see He means we need to become gentle and humble and quiet so we can be sensitive to how He constantly shares with us and personally guides us in His kind and gentle and humble caring and sharing family love.

Jesus is God's Son; God is our Father; so God is about family; so we learn and obey Jesus as family, not as individual isolated robots of our own control with artificial intelligence! In Satan's kingdom we were love-dead puppets, but very conscious in his horrible things of hate and lusts and frustration and worry and unforgiveness and bitterness and desperation for pleasure to make us feel something nicer . . . very lonely, indeed, not able to personally and sensitively share as family.

So, our reconciliation brought us out of that awful way of living and relating, and we have actually become family with God and one another who have trusted in Christ.

Grace so changes a person to be with Jesus >

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

And grace changes a person so we are able to be submissive to God in His own peace. Then we can do the works which God in us rules us to do in sharing with Him - - - works done in sharing with Him in His own peace >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

And this feeds with how Jesus says to submit to Him in His "yoke" so we have "rest for your souls." And James says, "Therefore submit to God," in James 4:7.

So, I am showing you, by the way, how Jesus and Paul and James are saying the same thing. This is only one example of how all our New Testament writers mean the same thing. But there are people who are using God's words to play a game of intellectual word chess in which they come up with all sorts of different meanings and rules for their pieces, and in the process they play people's attention away from being reconciled into personal intimacy and sharing and relating with God and one another as His family. And ones are not ministering for people to be "conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (in Romans 8:29) Their attention is elsewhere.

But you can see that the basic objective of Jesus is to save us so we can become and love like Jesus . . . like Paul says is the focus of his ministry > Colossians 1:28-29. After all, what is the first thing Jesus talked about, in His Sermon on the Mount?

How to become like Jesus >

poor in spirit

meek

merciful

pure in heart

And then He goes into how to relate with God and people. So, Jesus and Paul and James and Peter and John all have been ministering this. So, don't let word game people take your attention elsewhere. And discover sharing with mature Christian people who help you with this.
 
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jameshjr

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Let's see > Matthew 26:28 >

"'For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for the remission of sins.'" (Matthew 26:28)

Thank you for the message and the detail that you went into.

i spent most of my time (after my walk) thinking about this and reading the bible (including the beginning of Romans).

I could see no contradictions between what Paul wrote and what Jesus taught, and, in fact, believe as he argued, that he was given the grace to deliver the message of salvation to the gentiles (which the other disciples agreed to, believing he was given this mission from God).

I was definitely shaken up by the fact that an elder of mine (whom also leads bible study groups) was saying things counter to the teaching of scripture.

I am glad that i was wise enough to ask about this on Christian forums, and as a result have become wiser for the whole experience.

thank you again (and everyone) for your help with this.
 
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