Annihilationism

Mark Quayle

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That's probably a good reason to remove it from the bible then. As long as it's in there, people will create doctrines from it and continue to divide the church.

It's not like those guys in the 1800s had any special authority to remove the apocryphal books from the protestant bible. But they did it anyway.
With that reasoning we should throw out every other figurative, symbolic speaking, parable, hard to understand prophecy, and while we are at it, throw out all poetry and wisdom books just to be safe, and maybe Genesis 1 since that seems to be troubling some of us.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Not in figurative prophecy.
But there is in the same book, Revelation 6:8, where they are horsemen.

My view on prophecy is:
1) prophecy is given in riddles and not clearly (Number 12:8);
2) prophetic riddles are subject to more than one interpretation;
3) all intepretation of unfulfilled prophecy must be in agreement with NT teaching or it cannot be correct;
4) much inerpretation of prophecy today contradicts authoritative NT teaching, thus making those interpretations patently false.

Clare, thanks for laying that out, but I'd like to ask something real quick. From where did you learn to apply this form of Exegesis? Who have been your main influencers/teachers on this approach to Revelation?

It's not that I think you have all of your interpretation wrong, 'cuz I don't. I agree with you on the Substitutionary Atonement, but handling the book of Revelation is a little different. So, I'm just wondering from whom you've learned to read and interpret it.

Thanks! :cool:
 
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2PhiloVoid

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My biggest objection is that Jesus taught thst God is eager to forgive us, requiring at most repentance. (Sometimes Jesus told someone they were forgiven, and they responded with repentance, so even repentance is not always a precondition.) There’s no sign that someone had to be punished for forgiveness. Apparently audiences sometimes objected that his ideas of forgiveness violated Gods justice, as you are saying. You can see his response both in the prodigal son and the laborers in the vineyard.

... I thought we were trying to stick to 'defending' Annihilationism for whatever it's worth, bro! :cool: But here you guys are, dipping down now into soteriology.
 
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hedrick

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... I thought we were trying to stick to 'defending' Annihilationism for whatever it's worth, bro! :cool: But here you guys are, dipping down now into soteriology.
This was a response to critiques. One major objection to both annihilation and universalism is that God’s justice demands punishment. I believe that’s how it ended up here. See Annihilationism
 
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Annihilationism is the belief that rather than going to place of eternal torment, the wicked will be destroyed entirely, both in body and spirit. It is commonly promoted by the Seventh Day Adventist Church, and related denominations.

Most contemporary Christians believe that the wicked will go to hell and suffer for eternity.

What are your thoughts on annihilationism? Is it biblical?

Personally, I am kinda agnostic on the issue. I lean towards the traditional view of hell being a literal place of torment, largely just to be on the safe side, but I do see some compelling arguments for annihilationism.
The bible is very clear that there is eternal torment for the wicked. They will have a conscious existence in the afterlife.

Mark 9:42-48
42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where

"'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched
.'

Matthew 8:11-13
11 "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 13:41-43
41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Matthew 13:49-50
49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 22:13-14
"Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Matthew 24:48-51
48 "But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,' 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:29-30
29 "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.



2 Peter 2:1-9
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them — bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.


Jude 4-7, 12-13
4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home — these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

12 These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm — shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted — twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars — their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Revelation 19:20-21
20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Revelation 20:10
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:12-15

12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Scripture uses these terms and phrases as synonyms:

Unquenchable fire
Fiery hell
Black darkness
Outer darkness
Furnace of fire
Fire and brimstone
The smoke of their torment
The lake of fire which burns with brimstone
Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched
The eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels


All of the above carry the same meaning and consequences for the wicked.

hope this helps !!!
 
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hedrick

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The bible is very clear that there is eternal torment for the wicked. They will have a conscious existence in the afterlife.

Mark 9:42-48
42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where

"'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched
.'

Matthew 8:11-13
11 "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 13:41-43
41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Matthew 13:49-50
49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 22:13-14
"Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Matthew 24:48-51
48 "But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,' 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:29-30
29 "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.



2 Peter 2:1-9
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them — bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.


Jude 4-7, 12-13
4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home — these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

12 These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm — shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted — twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars — their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Revelation 19:20-21
20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Revelation 20:10
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:12-15

12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Scripture uses these terms and phrases as synonyms:

Unquenchable fire
Fiery hell
Black darkness
Outer darkness
Furnace of fire
Fire and brimstone
The smoke of their torment
The lake of fire which burns with brimstone
Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched
The eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels


All of the above carry the same meaning and consequences for the wicked.

hope this helps !!!
Mark’s worm is reference to Is 66:24. The worms are eating dead bodies, not tormenting people. Similarly, the fiery furnace (Daniel?) would be expected to consume people, as would the lake of fire which except in the case of Satan, the beast and the false prophet is called the second death.
 
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This was a response to critiques. One major objection to both annihilation and universalism is that God’s justice demands punishment. I believe that’s how it ended up here. See Annihilationism

I think Annihilationism can go either way, whereas Universalism and ECT are almost exclusive. I say this, though, with the admission that my own 'personal' approach to Annihilationism is perhaps a little different than that of some other folks---not that it makes any difference to me, really, since I'm not dogmatic about it all. :cool:
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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Mark’s worm is reference to Is 66:24. The worms are eating dead bodies, not tormenting people. Similarly, the fiery furnace (Daniel?) would be expected to consume people, as would the lake of fire which except in the case of Satan, the beast and the false prophet is called the second death.
Well God sustained them in the furnace even when the heat was turned way up so God can preserve people in a fire that would normally burn off their flesh. So God could do the same for the wicked allowing them to feel the pain and suffering without dying and preserving their lives of eternal torment.
 
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Mark Quayle

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2) prophetic riddles are subject to more than one interpretation;
Not that you meant this this way, but lest it be taken wrong: I don't think you mean that both interpretations (specially if they are mutually exclusive) are true. I think you mean that one interpretation isn't likely the only useful one, or, simply, that it is a fact that more than one interpretation can be taken from the text.

(One of the principles taught in Hermeneutics 101 is that "nothing can be interpreted accurately two different ways", by which is meant, "two different interpretations". In this logical principle, the truth is one; two are necessarily mutually exclusive.)

One reason I answer this, ironically, is that sometimes I see in prophecy and prophetic poetry, etc, and other 'figures, symbols, parallels and parables' a "second use" for lack of a better term. Often Christendom has decided THIS IS WHAT THIS MEANS when there seems to me to be more to it than just what they have decided. There are multi-layered plays on words, plays on concepts, maybe even puns on riddles, laced-together themes with other scriptures (which is another way to know whether one book is Scripture or not (OT, sorry)), and my favorite —"literal" when everyone says "symbolic", because we see everything backwards. Admittedly though, it is dangerous to draw doctrines on such speculations.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I think Annihilationism can go either way, whereas Universalism and ECT are almost exclusive. I say this, though, with the admissin that my own 'personal' approach to Annihilationism is perhaps a little different than that of some other folks---not that it makes any difference to me, really, since I'm not dogmatic about it all. :cool:

This is interesting to me, and curious. I am of rather a strong opinion that ECT is/will not be quite what people conceive of now, as regards the passage of time, but more likely, time-irrelevant. Thus the punishment is more a matter of quality, not quantity. I'm not sure it is so, but the fact that Jesus took that punishment belonging to all of the elect, and yet it is over for him (or so our minds like to think) might be indicative of what I am saying here. But the two concepts (ECT and Annihilationism) in this seem to approach one another; also in this, maybe some of the language of Scripture can be better understood.
 
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This is interesting to me, and curious. I am of rather a strong opinion that ECT is/will not be quite what people conceive of now, as regards the passage of time, but more likely, time-irrelevant. Thus the punishment is more a matter of quality, not quantity. I'm not sure it is so, but the fact that Jesus took that punishment belonging to all of the elect, and yet it is over for him (or so our minds like to think) might be indicative of what I am saying here. But the two concepts (ECT and Annihilationism) in this seem to approach one another; also in this, maybe some of the language of Scripture can be better understood.

You make a good point, Mark! If ECT is true, then it's nature may be 'outside' of time and space as we know it here. It's an interesting philosophical excurses to think about, for sure, but it's also one that we'll unlikely be able to fully understand on this side of our human mortality.

Still, I have to say I lean toward Annihilationism rather than to ECT, even if only for the sake of exegesis rather than personal feelings about it all.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Well God sustained them in the furnace even when the heat was turned way up so God can preserve people in a fire that would normally burn off their flesh. So God could do the same for the wicked allowing them to feel the pain and suffering without dying and preserving their lives of eternal torment.
And, it would not be hard for him to do.
 
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After the final lake of fire judgment Jesus says a curious thing.

Behold, I make all things new.

This implies either all things in the lake of fire were either 1) redeemed at that point or 2) Annihilated.
Or
3) evil is not a 'thing'.
 
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hedrick

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Well God sustained them in the furnace even when the heat was turned way up so God can preserve people in a fire that would normally burn off their flesh. So God could do the same for the wicked allowing them to feel the pain and suffering without dying and preserving their lives of eternal torment.
God can do anything. But there’s no Biblicak reason to assume this level of sadism.without some specific reason to think otherwise when you read of simeone being thrown into the fire you’d normally assume they are destroyed. ECT is not a plain easing of Scripture
 
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hedrick

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You make a good point, Mark! If ECT is true, then it's nature may be 'outside' of time and space as we know it here. It's an interesting philosophical excurses to think about, for sure, but it's also one that we'll unlikely be able to fully understand on this side of our human mortality.

Still, I have to say I lean toward Annihilationism rather than to ECT, even if only for the sake of exegesis rather than personal feelings about it all.
The same is true of eternal life. I’m not so sure it’s infinite time just like what we experience now.
 
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I'm actually going to change my mind on Mat 25:46. I think the plain reading of phrases like "eternal death" and "eternal punishment" is not a process of dying that goes on forever, but permanent death. Dead, gone, no chance of reconsideration or a second chance. That completely consistent with permanent life as a comparison.

I think people are seeing the Bible through Milton, or a very odd view of God.
 
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Clare73

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No. That’s one of several understandings of the atonement, and a relatively late one.
Just as salvation through faith, not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9) and
righteousness of justification by faith apart from works (Romans 4:5, 3:21, 28)
are "relatively" late also?
The idea that Christ had to save us from God seems to start in the 11th Cent.
Really?. . .so that makes:
"Since we have now been justifed by his blood, how much more whall we be
saved from God's wrath?" (Romans 5:9) even more "relatively" late?
My personal preference is Paul’s understanding, e.g. Rom 6.
My personal preference would be the whole testimony of the NT.
Hebrews 9:5: hilasterion = "lid of the ark"; place of propitiation,
where the blood was sprinkled on the annual Day of Atonement

Romans 3:25: hilasterion = "propitiation,"
"whom God presented as propitiation (sacrifice of atonement) through faith in his blood"

1 John 2:2, 1 John 4:10: hilasmos = "what appeases, propitiates"
"he is the propitiation (atoning sacrifice) for our sins"
"sent his Son (to be) the propitiation (atoning sacrifice) for our sins"

It is the sacrifice and the blood which are the atonement.
But Christ's work doesn't end with atonement for sin.
He also works in us the death to sin, which is righteousness.
He died for sin, that we might die to sin.
He says that in dying and rising with Christ we get beyond the domination of sin, into a new existence. Calvin has a further development of this. He says that the atonement is based not just on Christ’s death, but his whole life of obedience to God. Faith unites us to Christ in what he calls a fellowship of righteousness, by which we share in his victory over sin and death. But Rom 6 and Calvin have been called participation models of the atonement.
 
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Clare73

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My biggest objection is that Jesus taught thst God is eager to forgive us, requiring at most repentance. (Sometimes Jesus told someone they were forgiven, and they responded with repentance, so even repentance is not always a precondition.) There’s no sign that someone had to be punished for forgiveness.
Right. . .because Jesus took that for them.

And there is sign that under the Law sin was covered (as under the lid of the Ark) in anticipation of Christ's atonement for it, which would be applied at his atoning sacrifice:

"God in his forbearance had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished" (Romans 3:26), which is all sin that was forgiven/covered before Jesus' atoning sacrifice (Romans 3:25; Hebrews 9:5; 1 John 2:2, 1 John 4:10).
Apparently audiences sometimes objected that his ideas of forgiveness violated Gods justice, as you are saying. You can see his response both in the prodigal son and the laborers in the vineyard
God's justice is never violated, only delayed.
His (delayed) justice was executed on Calvary.
 
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Clare73

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Not sure quite how to take your question, or at least, how to deter some apparent implications if I was to answer in the affirmative.

They are both the final, and predestined, state of the person, the "completed form" (member of the Bride) and, "phantom thing" (person devoid of all graces of God.)
Thanks, that clears it up for me.
It was so beautifully stated.
There are many other parallels, or contrasts, that could be drawn from Scripture: for eg. as Sanctification has its results in the personality of each particular member of the Bride, so, the lives led by those lost to perdition carve their particular little niche in the Lake of Fire.

I draw a line though: If I say that this is what God made them for, that may provide a false implication, that God created for dual purposes —he did not. He created, for his own sake, the Bride of Christ. Those forever lost are part of what it took to produce that Bride, to his glory. That is, he did not create them for the mere purpose of damnation, but for the purpose of growing character into his Dwelling Place (the Bride).

I don't know if that is what you were asking, though.
Perfect! That's a keeper.
 
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Clare73

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Clare, thanks for laying that out, but I'd like to ask something real quick. From where did you learn to apply this form of Exegesis? Who have been your main influencers/teachers on this approach to Revelation?

It's not that I think you have all of your interpretation wrong, 'cuz I don't. I agree with you on the Substitutionary Atonement, but handling the book of Revelation is a little different. So, I'm just wondering from whom you've learned to read and interpret it.

Thanks! :cool:
Actually, I have no interpretation, and I don't interpret it.

My response to you was from Revelation itself, no interpretation by me required.

However, there is no human rule book for interpreting prophecy other than:
1) all interpretation must be in agreement with NT teaching, which is God's completed revelation to his people, and
2) Scripture does not contradict itself regarding NT teaching. So if the apostles disagree with a present interpreation, I judge it to be in error.

I stand behind only what I assert regarding any interpretation disagreeing with NT teaching. The apostles knew nothing of many of these interpretations, and I don't think it's because they were more ignorant than we.

Sometimes I see figurative parallels to Christian doctrine in Revelation, but it's not anything I will defend against other interpretations, because my objections are based only on contradiction to NT teaching.

That's about the sum of it for me and interpreting unfulfilled prophecy, which I suspect will disappoint you.
 
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