Healing: God Has More Mercy Than Man

Bobber

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So says some oddbod on his website. I prefer commentaries by professional bible scholars....

Some oddbod? Keep in mind they considered Jesus that too. "Have any of the rulers or the Pharisees believed on him? Jn 7:48 “How did this man attain such learning without having studied?” Jn 7: 15 So don't do that from one who might be a dear precious brother in the Lord. The issue is does what he say find it's place in scripture! But lets look at a few things your professional Bible scholars said keeping in mind we're not bound to have to believe them.

Romans by C. E. B. Cranfield
Emeritus Professor of Theology, University of Durham
Paul’s meaning is that all things, even those which seem most adverse and hurtful, such as persecution and death itself, are profitable to those who truly love God. But not every sort of profit is meant. So the expression has to be made more precise. Hence the addition of `for their true good’. Paul does not mean that all things serve the comfort or convenience or worldly interests of believers: it is obvious that they do not. What he means is that they assist our salvation.


Now if I asked him does this mean when we don't avail ourselves to the invitation to pray and fail to do so to change situations."You have not because you ask not" then that means that was a plan by providence that I failed to apply the word of God....I'm guessing he'd say NO. I'm guessing he'd say that to fail to apply the word of God correctly is NOT working together for good. I'm guessing he'd say by my loving God in a more diligent way the measure of good I experienced would have been more.

The Epistle to the Romans by John Murray
Though not expressed, the ruling thought is that in the sovereign love and wisdom of God they are all made to converge upon and contribute to that goal. Many of the things comprised are evil in themselves and it is the marvel of God’s wisdom and grace that they, when taken in concert with the whole, are made to work for good.

Still doesn't mean a failing to apply the word of God in a certain area as one walks out their Christian life was meant by God to be a part of the working together for good. I'd say you've got to add in obedience and carrying out instructions to have that as an absolutes that all things work together for good. We can KNOW THAT ever from the answer from Paul why are many weak and sickly among you and some of have died before their time. You can't say everything was working together in their life for good in such a context. One must keep it in the context of how it the Rom 8:28 verse was meant.
 
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Bobber

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But the prayer of faith in James 1 is begging and pleading. "But WHEN YOU ASK, you must believe and not doubt".

No it's not. A Christian does not need to BEG and PLEAD. A child of God is to KNOW their position in Christ, KNOW it and know that they're the righteousness of God in Christ because of the precious blood of Jesus! Because of the precious blood you can come BOLDY the throne of grace to receive grace and mercy in time of need. Scripture says healing IS mercy. LK 13:15. Jesus told us what the prayer of faith IS! One can't scoot around it.

What thing soever you desire when you pray believe you receive them and you shall have them.
Mark 11:24

Many, many, many, many never get this. Every time they read this they think it's saying, "What things you you desire when you pray believe that God is able and you might get it. Of course that's not what Jesus said. Jesus said you've got to believe you've got it before you see it manifested NOT JUST believe that God is able to do it. This establishes what the prayer in faith means. For the very reason that James says the prayer of faith will save the sick and the Lord WILL raise up ANY who pray it (not I that said this but James) should be telling you that healing is the absolute will of God for any saint.

1 John 5:14 "If we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.".

And we know healing is the will of God. We don't know when the manifestation will come after believing one receives, not just believing God is able BUT believing they receive when they pray it shall be done. James 1:7, Lk 13:16, Gal 6:13


Nowhere does it say it is God's will for Christians to be continually healthy. The fact that we fall sick in the 1st place is proof of that. Sometimes it is God's will for us to suffer....

Sorry but you're wrong. It is the perfect will of God for all his children to be healthy as your soul prospers. 3 Jn 1:3
  • He may be testing us, just as he tested Job by allowing terrible afflictions to come upon him.
I never said one doesn't have to wait in patient faith for the manifestation of healing to take place. Job was healed after his time of difficulty too. If you're going to use Job it only fair that you acknowledge that he WAS HEALED. Will you acknowledge that? JOB....WAS....HEALED.
 
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Bobber

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It may be to cause us to rely more on God. The same reason that God refused to heal Paul of his 'thorn in the flesh'...

You have no evidence whatsoever that Paul's thorn in the flesh was a physical sickness. Sorry but that's just your religious tradition that has made that up. Interesting that Paul could go to the Isle of Meltita and heal the father of Publius and all other sick people came and we're healed! No healing for Paul though you'd say?

Paul revealed in 2 Cor 12: 7 that the thorn of the flesh was a messenger of Satan. It was a demon from Satan sent to hinder the message of the gospel from going forth. This messenger created persecution against Paul for he wanted the word of God stopped not sickness. Jesus even told him it was because of the abundance of revelations he'd received to help people get free. Satan put a target on his back.
 
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swordsman1

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Some oddbod?

Yes, he is a liberal Christian, opposed to fundamental Christianity. He does not believe in hell as defined in scripture. He is an LGBTQ advocate, a left-wing political activist, and anti-war proponent. And his main job appears to be as a tour guide. If you are getting your theology from such dubious characters, and rejecting commentaries by respected professional bible scholars, then I am not surprised you think the way you do.

Keep in mind they considered Jesus that too. "Have any of the rulers or the Pharisees believed on him? Jn 7:48 “How did this man attain such learning without having studied?” Jn 7: 15

So because Jesus never trained as a theologian, we should all be paying attention to the multitudes of unqualified amateurs that plague the internet with their unorthodox ideas?

The issue is does what he say find it's place in scripture!

Well, seeing as the vast majority of bible versions disagree with his particular translation of Rom 8:28, then clearly not!


Now if I asked him does this mean when we don't avail ourselves to the invitation to pray and fail to do so to change situations."You have not because you ask not" then that means that was a plan by providence that I failed to apply the word of God....I'm guessing he'd say NO. I'm guessing he'd say that to fail to apply the word of God correctly is NOT working together for good. I'm guessing he'd say by my loving God in a more diligent way the measure of good I experienced would have been more.

Who said anything about not praying? Of course we should pray for healing. Whether God in his divine wisdom grants that request is another matter.

Still doesn't mean a failing to apply the word of God in a certain area as one walks out their Christian life was meant by God to be a part of the working together for good. I'd say you've got to add in obedience and carrying out instructions to have that as an absolutes that all things work together for good. We can KNOW THAT ever from the answer from Paul why are many weak and sickly among you and some of have died before their time. You can't say everything was working together in their life for good in such a context. One must keep it in the context of how it the Rom 8:28 verse was meant.

Who said anything about not obeying scripture?
 
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swordsman1

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No it's not. A Christian does not need to BEG and PLEAD. A child of God is to KNOW their position in Christ, KNOW it and know that they're the righteousness of God in Christ because of the precious blood of Jesus! Because of the precious blood you can come BOLDY the throne of grace to receive grace and mercy in time of need.

Those are your words I was echoing, not mine. Contrary to what you claimed, the prayer of faith IS asking God. "But WHEN YOU ASK, you must believe and not doubt". The Christian has no right to DEMAND that God grant our wishes as if he is some kind of genie.

Jesus told us what the prayer of faith IS! One can't scoot around it.

What thing soever you desire when you pray believe you receive them and you shall have them.
Mark 11:24

Many, many, many, many never get this. Every time they read this they think it's saying, "What things you you desire when you pray believe that God is able and you might get it. Of course that's not what Jesus said. Jesus said you've got to believe you've got it before you see it manifested NOT JUST believe that God is able to do it. This establishes what the prayer in faith means. For the very reason that James says the prayer of faith will save the sick and the Lord WILL raise up ANY who pray it (not I that said this but James) should be telling you that healing is the absolute will of God for any saint.

No, that is faulty Word of Faith teaching, as espoused by Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn and the other WOF charlatans. That is taking a single verse out of context and making a monstrous false doctrine out of it. Mark 11:24 is not a blank check that says God must grant whatever we request so long as we do not doubt. The correct way to interpret scripture is in the light of other scripture. And there are numerous other verses that specify conditions for prayer to be answered. One condition is given in the very next verse - if you are not forgiving others. Another is that the request must be according to his will (1 John 5:14). And I have already given you numerous verses that shows where healing may not be God's will. Another condition is that the request must not be from our selfish desires (James 4:3).

Even Jesus did not have his prayer to relieve his suffering granted (Luke 22:42). Was Jesus's request denied because he had doubts? No, it was denied because it was not God's will.

Providing it is God's will to grant our request and all the other conditions for prayer are met, then of course we can be certain the request will be granted according to Mark 11:24. Any Christian that believes in the power of God, and that nothing is impossible for Him, will also believe that God is able to fulfil their request, no matter how audacious it is. And IF IT IS GOD'S WILL, then it WILL happen. We can believe it will happen even before the request is granted.

The reason that many such prayers are not granted, is not because they doubted God's ability, but because it was not God's will.
 
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swordsman1

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And we know healing is the will of God. We don't know when the manifestation will come after believing one receives, not just believing God is able BUT believing they receive when they pray it shall be done. James 1:7, Lk 13:16, Gal 6:13

Show me the scripture that says physical healing is always God's will.

Sorry but you're wrong. It is the perfect will of God for all his children to be healthy as your soul prospers. 3 Jn 1:3

3 Jn 1:3 says nothing of the sort.

I never said one doesn't have to wait in patient faith for the manifestation of healing to take place. Job was healed after his time of difficulty too. If you're going to use Job it only fair that you acknowledge that he WAS HEALED. Will you acknowledge that? JOB....WAS....HEALED.

Erm....Read your bible. Job never prayed for healing. Nor did his friends.
 
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swordsman1

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You have no evidence whatsoever that Paul's thorn in the flesh was a physical sickness. Sorry but that's just your religious tradition that has made that up. Interesting that Paul could go to the Isle of Meltita and heal the father of Publius and all other sick people came and we're healed! No healing for Paul though you'd say?

Yes I do have evidence Paul's 'thorn' was a physical ailment. The phrase “in my flesh” is a local dative that denotes the physical body and thus implies the problem afflicted him physically (see also 2 Cor 4:11; 10:2). It was obviously physically painful in the same way a thorn stuck in the flesh would be physically painful, that left him physically weak (v9), with Paul grouping that weakness with four other physical adversities (v10). We know that Paul suffered from a physical ailment that was a trial not only to him but also to the Galatians (Gal 4:13-14) and this could well be the same problem.

Whatever it was, God never granted Paul's prayer to take it away. And the reason for that is not because Paul doubted God's ability, but because God wanted Paul to rely on His strength. And that reason can apply to us as well.

It was a demon from Satan sent to hinder the message of the gospel from going forth. This messenger created persecution against Paul for he wanted the word of God stopped not sickness.

That definition of Paul's 'thorn' is nowhere to be found in scripture.

It couldn't possibly have been a demon from Satan, because Paul was "given" the thorn in the flesh for his own good, in order to prevent spiritual pride (v7). The passive voice implies that God gave it to him. The same verb ἐδόθη is used when God gives something of benefit (Gal 3:21; Eph 3:8; 5:19; 1 Tim 4:14). Why would Satan give Paul something that would benefit his ministry?! Also Paul identifies it as a weakness and says that he has now become content with his weakness (v10). He would hardly be content if a demon was constantly attacking him. Therefore a "messenger of Satan" is most likely a personification of Paul's affliction, not a literal demon.
 
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Bobber

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Yes I do have evidence Paul's 'thorn' was a physical ailment. The phrase “in my flesh” is a local dative that denotes the physical body and thus implies the problem afflicted him physically(see also 2 Cor 4:11; 10:2). It was obviously physically painful in the same way a thorn stuck in the flesh would be physically painful.....

That's enough. You've overlooked the one big thing here. Paul borrowed the colloquial expression or idiom from the Old Testament. Paul's readers fully understood the context. Here you see it used in Numbers, and the book of Joshua,

But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell. Num 33:55

And,

Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes..... Joshua 23: 13

So are we to believe Paul being fully aware of this idiom actually believed all these Israelites of Moses and Joshua's day actually had eye problems? Were they REALLY grabbing their physical sides hurting? Didn't it say thorns in their sides? So there's TWO examples and that provides historical context of how Paul used the verse. Clearly he meant it as an idiom so let's not pretend he didn't.
Current day we don't use the idiom although we do but we've changed it a bit.

Don't we say so and so is a pain in the .........? Oh so that means we're saying our physical backside is hurting and time to get out the heat lentamente? Or when we see an unkept house on a street and call it an eye sore....do we run down to an optometrist to get help? Of course not so how about we get real and not be seeking to interpret the scriptures this way.




 
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Bobber

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That definition of Paul's 'thorn' is nowhere to be found in scripture.

What matters is what the idiom Paul used means and DOESN'T mean. It was never meant and Paul knew of it from the reading of Num 33:55 and Joshua 23:13 as I revealed in my last post that it wasn't meant to be understood as something literal. The Jews in Joshua's time DID NOT grab their sides or have hurting eyes because of the enemies of the land!

Now when Paul used the word "messenger" ἄγγελος (angelos) -->of Satan look up that word ἄγγελος (angelos). 181 times in the scripture it's translated as ANGEL. Seeing therefore it's a "messenger" Angel of Satan what more could be said....except it's a demon. So sorry your assessment that the "messenger" angelos (of Satan) wouldn't be a demon I 'd have to contend would be grossly untrue. I'm not sure how much more clear Paul could have been.
 
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Bobber

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It couldn't possibly have been a demon from Satan, because Paul was "given" the thorn in the flesh for his own good, in order to prevent spiritual pride (v7).

OK now let's unpack this. You're going with the thorn was given to prevent spiritual pride and going by the KJV it's might be understood why you'd take it that way. When the scritpure says "Lest I become concieted" it comes from the greek ὑπεραίρωμαι (hyperairōmai) and I think the New King James more rightly put's it down this way---> And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. NKJV 2 Cor 12: 7

That does not have to mean PRIDE. It can clearly mean that Satan (remember it was a messenger of Satan not a messenger of God) that Satan WAS NOT going to allow Paul ANY victories that he didn't have to absolutely make his stand in faith to receive based on what came from these revelations. In other words let's put it another way. Satan was saying to Paul by what he did that if you're going to go out there and be telling people all the detailed revelations of who and what you are now in Christ and the type of authority believers now have I'm not going to let you have one inch of victory that you didn't have to stand to get.

Now when Paul asked the Lord three times to have this messenger of Satan (not messenger of God) to be pulled off Jesus didn't say he couldn't gain the victory over the problems it'd cause from day to day. He said MY GRACE is sufficient for you OR what you've obtained by grace will do the job. And what did he obtain by grace. The Name of Jesus, the blood of the Lamb, the authority of the believer BUT there's a fight a spiritual one you have to sustain. The battle is won so we're an occupying force in victory but as Paul pointed out in Eph 6:10....we're still in a warfare. So remember what the Lord said to him. My strength is made perfect in weakness FOR....FOR, when I am weak then I am STRONG! Notice he didn't say Paul would stay weak. He said he always would rise up and overcome in his strength!

Now one says but Paul said he'd glory in weakness. NOT TO STAY WEAK! He's saying he reached the point where he didn't mind having it look like all hope was gone, because by faith and his worship of God it would change things. Acts 16 Paul and Silus in jail perfect example. Acts 16:22 Persecuted, locked up and jail with their hands and feet in chains....WEAK...they praised God and an earthquake happens. They're free no longer bound! No longer weak. Jesus basically said to Paul apply the word of God.....IT WILL BRING YOU VICTORY ....out of that weakness....you'll be shown to be strong! You can't take the STRONG out of that verse and just stay with the weak, or that Paul was always weak with some physical sickness.

That's no where found in scripture and it's not even found in scripture that Paul was sick. Of course he undoubtedly had to stand against sickness in Jesus name as every human being might periodically have to do but to say Paul's thorn in the flesh was an on going continual sickness. No where found in scripture. The scripture leans towards an understanding that he was referring to the persecutions he had to endure rise up and overcome. When I am weak ....than I am STRONG!
 
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It's because the way and manner they're seeking to get healed. Let's look at Jn 5: 2,4

Have you been healed? If so, what was your condition, how long did you have it, and when did the healing come? I would like to understand your perspective on the subject.

~bella
 
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swordsman1

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OK now let's unpack this. You're going with the thorn was given to prevent spiritual pride and going by the KJV it's might be understood why you'd take it that way. When the scritpure says "Lest I become concieted" it comes from the greek ὑπεραίρωμαι (hyperairōmai) and I think the New King James more rightly put's it down this way---> And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. NKJV 2 Cor 12: 7

That does not have to mean PRIDE. It can clearly mean that Satan (remember it was a messenger of Satan not a messenger of God) that Satan WAS NOT going to allow Paul ANY victories that he didn't have to absolutely make his stand in faith to receive based on what came from these revelations. In other words let's put it another way.

I'm afraid your understanding of Paul's thorn in the flesh is quite wrong. Here are some commentaries of 2 Cor 12:7 that will help you understand this verse better. Needless to say, no commentator claims it was a demon, or even suggests it as a possibility. They are generally agreed it was either a physical ailment or a human persecutor. They all agree the "thorn" was given by God in order to prevent spiritual pride and to force Paul to rely on God's strength.

What is important for our debate however is that Paul's repeated prayer for relief from his affliction was not answered. God refused to grant his request for good reason, and it wasn't because he lacked faith. And God can refuse to answer our prayers for similarly good reasons.


Scott J. Hafemann - Professor of New Testament at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary

In 12:7b, he makes it clear that God kept him from such conceit by granting him “a thorn in [or against] his flesh,” that is, “a messenger of Satan” sent to batter or torment him. Once again, Paul uses the divine passive in this verse: “There was given me [by God] a thorn in my flesh.” Both Paul’s rapture and his thorn are the work of God. As Ralph Martin observes, “The importance of the passive verb, edothē, ‘was given,’ can hardly be exaggerated. God is the unseen agent behind the bitter experience.” Paul’s use of the divine passive in regard to his receiving this “messenger” as well as for his rapture into heaven may be intended to correct the accusation of his opponents that his “thorn” was the work of Satan alone, not of God. From their perspective, Paul’s inability to overcome it thereby called his legitimacy into question.

The exact nature of this “thorn” or satanic messenger has been a matter of much debate. Nonetheless, Ulrich Heckel has convincingly demonstrated that Paul’s “thorn in the flesh” in 12:7 and the parallel reference to his “weakness” (astheneia) in 12:9 are best taken to refer to some personal sickness. The other options are to understand them as referring to his inner temptations (a view that no longer finds much support) or to his being persecuted by his opponents (a view first found among the Fathers, beginning in the fourth century A.D.). Those who favor this last view emphasize that it was not a thorn in the flesh, but a thorn against the flesh. They also advocate a parallel between the “messenger of Satan” in 12:7 and the “servants” of Satan in 11:15 and point to the use of the image of a “thorn” in the LXX of Num. 33:55 and Ezek. 28:24 to refer to the enemies of Israel.


James M. Scott - professor of religious studies at Trinity Western University

In this section Paul makes a startling admission, one that would have been potentially damaging to him in the hands of his opponents. The apostle admits that God himself is ultimately responsible for his physical weakness! Just as God was responsible for his heavenly ascent (note the divine passives in vv. 2 and 4), so also God was responsible for his receiving a “thorn in the flesh” (note the divine passive in v. 7); however, the real crux of Paul’s admission consists in the reason for which he was given this physical malady, that is, to keep him from becoming conceited. If a glorious outer appearance is missing in Paul, it can be explained by his superlative inner experiences, which might normally make him proud. By this argument, Paul can justify his obvious physical weakness and yet underscore his apostolic authority.

To keep Paul from becoming conceited because of his revelatory experience, a thorn in my flesh was given to him (i.e., by God). In other words, the formal cause of Paul’s weakness, which the opponents so vehemently decry, is none other than his extraordinary apostolic revelations! By this subtle and ingenious maneuver, Paul deconstructs his opponents’ most effective argument against his apostleship. In effect, Paul makes suffering and weakness—even the extreme sort that he constantly endures (cf. 11:23bff.)—a sign of genuine, and even exceptional, apostleship since the more often that an apostle ascends to the divine throne of glory, the more his pride will need to be held in check by earthly suffering.

It is difficult to ascertain whether the thorn (skolops) refers to a persecutor (cf. Num. 33:55; Ezek. 28:24) or to a physical ailment (cf. Ps. 32:4[LXX 31:4]). If the following clause (“a messenger of Satan to torment me”) is meant to be an appositional modifier of “thorn,” then the former interpretation is possible. On the other hand, the latter interpretation cannot be dismissed, especially if Paul is alluding to Psalm 32:4: “For day and night your [sc. the Lord’s] hand was heavy upon me; I was tormented with bodily suffering while a thorn (akanthan) was stuck in me.” Psalm 32, a thanksgiving for healing and forgiveness after confession of sin, concludes with an exhortation to boast: “And boast, all you who are upright in heart” (v. 11). The “thorn in the flesh” (not represented in the MT) is a metaphor for the psalmist’s unspecified physical ailment. The parallel to 2 Corinthians 12:7 is obvious (cf. Gal. 4:12-20), for our passage also makes a connection between the thorn in the flesh and boasting in weakness (cf. 2 Cor. 12:9). The fact that Paul knew this psalm is shown by the citation of Psalm 32:1–2 in Romans 4:7–8 (“Blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man [anēr] against whom the Lord will not reckon sin”). If our passage alludes to this psalm, then it may imply that Paul received divine forgiveness for his conceit.


Murray J. Harris - professor of New Testament exegesis and theology at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School
To keep him from becoming conceited (or overly elated; see Notes) there was given him a thorn in his flesh. Two inferences are fair: (1) The agent implied by edothē (“there was given,” GK 1443; cf. the “theological passives” in vv.2, 4) is God. This is confirmed by the fact that the “thorn” (skolops, GK 5022; see Notes) was given to achieve a beneficial purpose—the prevention of spiritual conceit—and that Paul requested the Lord for the departure of the messenger (v.8). (2) The “thorn” was given immediately or shortly after the vision described in vv.2–4.

The efforts that have been made to identify Paul’s “thorn” are legion. The recurring suggestions may be grouped under three broad headings: (1) spiritual or psychological anxiety (such as anguish over Israel’s stubborn unbelief [P. H. Menoud]); (2) opposition to his ministry or message (a single opponent [T. Y. Mullins] or opponents in general [M. L. Barré]); and (3) a physical malady, whether unspecified as to its nature (C. H. Dodd and I) or specified (such as malaria [W. M. Ramsay], Malta fever [W. M. Alexander], or migraine headaches [U. Heckel]). But paucity of information and the obscurity of Paul’s language have frustrated all attempts to solve this enigmatic problem. In fact, had Paul revealed what his skolops was, Christians of succeeding generations who lacked his particular affliction or disability would have tended to find his experience (vv.8–10) irrelevant. As it is, countless believers have been helped by his reference to his “thorn.”

It is remarkable that Paul could regard his affliction as given by God and yet as “a messenger of Satan.” This may support the view that the affliction was some type of physical malady, because in 1 Corinthians 5:5 (cf. 1Co 11:30; 1Ti 1:20) Satan appears as God’s agent for the infliction of disciplinary illness (cf. Job 2:1–10). Certainly a recurrent and tormenting malady could be considered “a messenger of Satan,” for it might bring Paul within the shadow of death (cf. 2Co 1:8–9) or hinder the advance of the gospel either by arousing the contempt of his hearers (cf. Gal 4:13–14) or by so incapacitating him that traveling plans were frustrated. Be that as it may, behind any and every machination of Satan Paul could discern the overarching providence of a God who perpetually creates good out of evil.
 
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swordsman1

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Ralph P. Martin - professor of New Testament at Manchester University

Paul confesses that he is not the agent responsible for this thorn. He reports that the thorn ἐδόθη μοι, “was given to me.” It is doubtful that Satan is the giver, even if σκόλοψ τῇ σαρκί, “thorn in the flesh,” is the grammatical subject of ἐδόθη, “was given.” If Paul had intended to convey such information, he most likely would have chosen a word other than δίδωμι, “give.” This word was usually employed to denote that God’s favor had been bestowed (cf. Gal 3:21; Eph 3:8; 5:19; 1 Tim 4:14). Plummer suggests that if Satan was the agent, ἐπιτίθημι, “lay upon” (Luke 10:30; 23:26; Acts 16:23), or βάλλω, “cast” (Rev 2:24), or ἐπιβάλλω, “put on” (1 Cor 7:35), would have been more appropriate. As mentioned earlier, we have an example of the passivum divinum, “divine passive.” This “divine passive,” speaking of God as the hidden agent behind events and experiences in human lives, fits well into Paul’s thinking. He sees both the revelation and the thorn as from God. Hence Zmijewski is correct when he writes that though “thorn” can be assumed to be the grammatical subject of “was given,” in reality “the evidence points to God being the essential acting subject.”

There is uncertainty in identifying Paul’s use of σάρξ, “flesh,” in the expression “in the flesh.” The question centers on whether to render this phrase “in the flesh” or “for the flesh.” It is a question of whether to take τῇ σαρκί as locative dative (“in”) or dative of disadvantage (“for”). If it is the former, then most likely Paul is speaking of a physical malady or ailment, for we should understand σάρξ, “flesh,” in the neutral sense, namely, the physical body. The argument against taking the dative as locative is that if Paul intended it this way, he would have included the preposition ἐν, “in.” On the contrary, it has been proposed that this is the dative of disadvantage (“for the flesh”). If this position is adopted, then σάρξ, “flesh,” takes on the Pauline sense of man’s lower nature. Opponents of this position argue that if Paul had wanted to convey this meaning of σάρξ, “flesh,” he most likely would have contrasted it with some reference to the Spirit. On the basis of Hughes’s thinking, we understand “flesh” to be of the non-theological category.

John Chrysostom (Hom. 2 Cor. 26) understood σατανᾶς, “Satan,” in the general sense of adversary, and he concluded that Paul’s thorn was his opponents (specifically, Alexander the coppersmith). Recently this argument has been revived. The support of this position is well worth noting, and there are four basic points that endorse the position that the thorn refers to Paul’s opponents.
...
However, there is much support for the view of the thorn as referring to something other than the opponents of Paul. The medieval thinkers (from Gregory the Great to Aquinas) understood the Vulgate rendering of stimulus carnis, “goad of the flesh,” to imply sexual temptation.
The Reformers (such as Calvin and Luther) viewed Paul’s thorn in the flesh as spiritual temptation. Few modern commentators adopt this view.

Rather, the majority opt for some form of physical ailment. One common ailment suggested was a severe form of ophthalmia. This is inferred from the colorful language of Galatians. In Gal 4:13 Paul speaks of a weakness of the flesh (σάρξ) and proceeds to acknowledge the willingness of the Galatians to pluck out their eyes and give them to him (4:15). Also, Paul is seen as closing the Galatian epistle by noting that the handwriting is his own, for this writing is in large letters (6:11). Also, appeal is made to the (hypothetical) case of Acts 23:5, where Paul fails to recognize the high priest. This defective eyesight may stem from, as the theory goes, the scales that fell from Paul’s eyes after his conversion experience (Acts 9:9, 18). This theory, though interesting, has received little support in recent times.
Another ailment suggested is epilepsy, possibly as a result of the experience Paul had at his conversion. That is, the fact that Paul fell down on the road to Damascus has been seen as evidence that Paul was epileptic; but this is doubtful.

One of the more attractive hypotheses is that of Ramsay. Paul, it is said, suffered from a form of recurring malarial fever. It has been suggested that he contracted this disease in Pamphylia. For Ramsay, this theory covers all the symptoms Paul seems to exhibit. Accordingly, Paul was incapacitated by the attacks of this fever. If the fever seared the head, one can appreciate how Paul felt battered about.

Other forms of suffering have been suggested. The thorn, e.g., may have been the agony that Paul experienced at the Jewish rejection of the gospel. We know this was a problem for Paul as recorded in Romans, chaps. 9–11, especially 9:1–3. Menoud does make the point that Paul never mentions sickness in his tribulation lists. Akin to this suggestion is the idea that Paul’s apostleship was refused.
Clavier believes that Paul suffered disorders to his nervous system as a result of the hardships he endured and the shock his psyche received from his visions and revelations.
Yet, with all these physical ailments suggested, one wonders with Binder whether a person who was so often on the “battlefield” could have been so physically weak and still have withstood the rigors of Paul’s life.

But this is not to say that the supposition that Paul’s suffering was physical cannot also be defended. It is worth noting that Satan is associated with physical illness in the biblical tradition. We see this in Job 2:5, where Satan is allowed (by God’s permission) to inflict sickness. Also in Luke 13:16 Satan is credited as the one responsible for the woman being bent over for eighteen years. There is nothing to suggest that a “literal” messenger (ἄγγελος) was the agent for these respective illnesses. In addition, the term “angel of Satan” was not necessarily a common phrase. Contrary to those who see ἄγγελος, “messenger,” as signifying a “person” (specifically, adversaries), Paul may have simply been attributing his ailment to satanic origin, but always with the conviction that God was in control. Probably the most telling argument against the position that Paul was referring to human opponents as the thorn in the flesh (and by now it should be apparent that the possibilities offered concerning the thorn roughly fall into two categories, namely, human opponents and physical ailment) is found in 12:8. This verse relates that Paul prayed that God would remove the thorn. Would the apostle pray to be spared persecution? This is doubtful, since persecution was the fuel on which Paul seemed to thrive. The more he was persecuted the more he seemed determined to press the claims of his apostolate. Moreover, if this thorn was given to Paul near the time of his revelation of 12:2–4, then it is doubtful that Paul was speaking of the opponents in 11:13–15, for he had yet to confront them. Yet we must honestly recognize that a chronically ill Paul does not fit well with the picture of Paul found in the NT. Rather, Paul is one who must be seen as in robust health and with a strong constitution. On the other side, at Corinth where his apostolic role was under fire, any physical weakness would have seemed a liability; then Paul could not deny that the estimate of his person in 10:10, 11:21, and 12:10 is valid, however much it was exploited by his traducers.

Something in the nature of defective speech has also been suggested as Paul’s thorn. This could account for his making a bad first impression at Corinth (1 Cor 2:1–5; 2 Cor 10:10). Moreover, it may supply the reason why he was impressive in his letters, but “deficient” in his speech (10:1, 9–11; 11:6). Such an ailment would not prove incapacitating nor drain one’s strength, yet it would be humiliating, evoking ridicule and scorn. But again this is only a guess.

We simply do not know the meaning behind “the thorn in the flesh.” At best we can say with Bruce that the thorn attacked Paul some time after the ecstatic experience. From the present tense of κολαφίζῃ, “batter,” it appears that this was a continual problem. It seems also likely that Paul suffered a kind of physical disorder, but even that is uncertain. In all probability, the Corinthians knew of what Paul spoke. We, however, are left on the outside listening to one side of a two-sided conversation. We will probably never know the truth (or, at least, never know for sure we have the truth).

David E. Garland - Professor of Christian Scriptures at Baylor University
Over elation from the incredible experience of being allowed entry into paradise could easily lead to an over inflation of one’s ego so that one feels superior to others less blessed by supernal visions. To prevent such spiritual pride from welling up in Paul, he was given a thorn in the flesh. The passive voice implies that God gave it to him. Paul’s “thorn” was an effective cure for any mistaken euphoria that visions might evoke. God wanted Paul to remain humble and fully aware of his own weakness. The thorn punctured any pride that might surge within him because of his grand entry into heaven, and the result was that he dealt with others with the meekness and gentleness of Christ (10:1) rather than with the arrogant puffery of Satan.

Most interpreters through the years have assumed that Paul alludes to some bodily ailment. This view is reinforced by Paul’s mention of a physical illness that detained him in Galatia and led to his preaching the gospel to them. He writes that his physical condition was a trial to them (Gal 4:13– 14). Assuming that this affliction was something that persisted, the suggestions range from a pain in the ear or head, to malarial fever, epilepsy, and solar retinitus. ...

Since Paul prays so fervently to have the stake removed, it was probably something that he felt interfered with his ministry. Marshall identifies it as a “socially debilitating disease or disfigurement which was made the subject of ridicule and invidious comparison.”⁴²² Paul’s speech has been the subject of the Corinthians’ criticism (10:10), and the stake could have been something that led to some kind of a speech handicap. The “angel of Satan” could allude to the story of Balaam (Num 22:22–34) where the angel of the Lord gets in his way three times to prevent him from speaking and cursing the nation of Israel, against God’s will. In the end we must accept the fact that we will never know for certain what Paul’s stake in the flesh was. We can only be certain that initially it caused him considerable annoyance.

The phrase “angel of Satan” is in apposition to the stake. Satan comes to bedevil him as an agent of testing. The verb “to torment” (kolaphizein, “abuse,” “batter”) implies humiliating violence—being slapped around; and the present tense suggests that it was persistent—something that happens over and over again. The same word is used for the abuse of Jesus in his passion (Mark 15:65; Matt 26:67), and by choosing this word Paul might connect his sufferings as an apostle with those of Christ.
Satan comes as God’s adversary to lure people away from God’s rule, or he comes as God’s proxy to implement trials God authorizes. The story of Job provides the foremost example of the latter. Does this Satanic angel try to hinder the advance of the gospel in some way (see 1 Thess 2:18)? If so, Satan’s purposes are thwarted (see 2:11). What is sent to torment Paul is transformed by God into a means of proclaiming Christ’s power and grace. This surprising twist reflects the paradoxical way God defeats Satan. God permits Satan to strike the apostle, but God turns the stricken Paul into an even greater instrument of his power. A proud, arrogant Paul would have only hindered the gospel’s advance. A humiliated, frail Paul, lead as a captive in God’s triumph, has accelerated the gospel’s progress so that the fragrance of knowing God spreads everywhere (see 2:14).

Raymond F.Collins - professor of the New at The Catholic University of America
In fact, despite having given Paul an overwhelming ecstatic experience, Godtook the initiative in keeping Paul humble. Therefore, because of the abundance of revelations, lest I exalt myself, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan, to torment me so that I might not exalt myself (12:7). Lest Paul be carried away because of the overwhelming revelatory experience (tē hyperbolē tōn apokalypseōn), God gave him “a thorn in the flesh.” This was to keep Paul from having any undue pride (hyperairōmai, used by Paul only in 12:7) because of what he had experienced. “Was given,” a divine passive, corresponds to the divine passive “was snatched up” (ēpargē) of verse 4 (cf. v. 2). Both experiences are the result of God’s action. It is likely that both occurred in the same time frame.

Various physical ailments and disabilities as well as all sorts of psychological difficulties—enough to fill a dictionary of pathology!—have also been proposed as the referent of Paul’s metaphor. Difficulties with speech or sight are most commonly proposed (cf. Gal. 4:13–15; 6:11). If Paul suffered from some sort of obvious physical disability, he may have been mocked by the interlopers, who accused him of being weak in physical appearance (see 10:10). In the end, it is impossible to know what Paul meant by this intriguing image. The Corinthians themselves may not have known the real meaning of the metaphor.
Paul personifies the image by describing it as a messenger of Satan (angelos satana; see 11:14). The thorn was given to torment Paul (hina mē kolaphizē). That “torment” really means “beat” adds to the personification. Satan’s messenger was sent to Paul to flog him. Whatever Paul suffered was comparable to a beating that he might receive (cf. 11:24–25a).
 
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Bobber

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I'm afraid your understanding of Paul's thorn in the flesh is quite wrong. Here are some commentaries of 2 Cor 12:7 that will help you understand this verse better. Needless to say, no commentator claims it was a demon, or even suggests it as a possibility.

Of course it's very, very easy to provide a whole host of Biblical commentaries which don't adhere to what I and many others are saying from the scriptures' and from the Greek. It's extremely hard for any one from theological seminaries to see a different possibility outside of their long held traditions. This can be shown from "Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed in him? John 7:48 I'm not insinuating your quotes are from Christ denying Pharisees but the point is many religiously trained minds can make great mistakes.

But I have provided you NOT THEM with this. If they were here I and others could challenge them with the same, (see below)

Now when Paul used the word "messenger" ἄγγελος (angelos) -->of Satan look up that word ἄγγελος (angelos). 181 times in the scripture it's translated as ANGEL. Seeing therefore it's a "messenger" Angel of Satan what more could be said....except it's a demon. So sorry your assessment that the "messenger" angelos (of Satan) wouldn't be a demon I 'd have to contend would be grossly untrue.

You've bypassed that and haven't even sought to address what I've shared. And as for some of the ones you've quoted wondering if it's a human persecutors as a whole who sought to persecute him and not a demon or forces from the spiritual realm, LOOK that wouldn't even ultimately matter with the issue we're trying to establish. Wouldn't make any difference at all. The central point is IT WAS NOT physical sickness and there's no evidence that can demonstrate such. To say Pauls thorn was physical sickness and the Lord said he wouldn't deliver him from it is a Covenant violation of Deut 28, Gal 3:16, Jm 5:14 Isaiah 53:4, Matt 18:19, Lk 13:16 and 3 John 3:1-2 The Spirit said, "Is ANY sick among you? And it goes on to say, "The Lord WILL raise him up!" "

That's an all inclusive statement and can't be said to be any thing less. If they apply the prayer of FAITH....James said this not I.....they will be healed. The only disclaimer would be from what Paul stated....why are so many weak and sick among you 1 Cor 11:30 .....and he went on to explain why but told them there was a solution to that which would still say they could be healed as it being the will of God. In other words some people may need to make adjustments.
 
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swordsman1

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Of course it's very, very easy to provide a whole host of Biblical commentaries which don't adhere to what I and many others are saying from the scriptures' and from the Greek. It's extremely hard for any one from theological seminaries to see a different possibility outside of their long held traditions. This can be shown from "Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed in him? John 7:48 I'm not insinuating your quotes are from Christ denying Pharisees but the point is many religiously trained minds can made great mistakes.

Well, people here can read your interpretation of Paul's 'thorn in the flesh' and they can read those of the overwhelming consensus of professional bible scholars and decide for themselves who is correct.

But I have provided you NOT THEM with this. If they were here I and others could challenge them with the same, (see below)

Now when Paul used the word "messenger" ἄγγελος (angelos) -->of Satan look up that word ἄγγελος (angelos). 181 times in the scripture it's translated as ANGEL. Seeing therefore it's a "messenger" Angel of Satan what more could be said....except it's a demon. So sorry your assessment that the "messenger" angelos (of Satan) wouldn't be a demon I 'd have to contend would be grossly untrue.

You've bypassed that and haven't even sought to address what I've shared. And as for some of the ones you've quoted wondering if it's a human persecutors as a whole who sought to persecute him and not a demon or forces from the spiritual realm, LOOK that wouldn't even ultimately matter with the issue we're trying to establish. Wouldn't make any difference at all. The central point is IT WAS NOT physical sickness and there's no evidence that can demonstrate such. To say Pauls thorn was physical sickness and the Lord said he wouldn't deliver him from it is a Covenant violation of Deut 28, Gal 3:16, Jm 5:14 Isaiah 53:4, Matt 18:19, Lk 13:16 and 3 John 3:1-2

The reason the demon idea is not even considered by scholars is because 'angelos' can mean either "messenger" or "angel". And the vast majority of bible translations, including all the major versions, have it as "messenger" as that fits the context far better. If Paul had meant demon he would have used the word for demon which is 'daimonion'.
 
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Bobber

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Well, people here can read your interpretation of Paul's 'thorn in the flesh' and they can read those of the overwhelming consensus of professional bible scholars and decide for themselves who is correct.

You merely piled on with quite a number of individuals who share a theological bent. I could pile on with numbers of individuals who would side with my view but won't do it so it doesn't turn into my theologians are better than yours type of rebuttals. What's important is what do the scriptures say with a focus NOT merely what the King James version says but the actual greek.

The reason the demon idea is not even considered by scholars is because 'angelos' can mean either "messenger" or "angel". And the vast majority of bible translations, including all the major versions, have it as "messenger" as that fits the context far better.

It doesn't matter HOW they rendered it. What matters is what the actual greek word calls it, ἄγγελος (angelos) You've even acknowledged IT CAN MEAN ANGEL.

If Paul had meant demon he would have used the word for demon which is 'daimonion'.

He would not have had to do that at all. Even in the other scriptures devils are called angels (albeit fallen ones) "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." Matt 25: 41 The scriptures did not say the devil and his 'daimonion's there....It said the devil and his angels. ἄγγελος (angelos)

But let's not depart from our central discussion. The back and forth of whether it was a fallen angel or hosts of them hindering Paul, which Paul actually did say took place, Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us. I Thess 2:18 If you're going to insist on holding to it wasn't Satan or one of his forces but rather human persecuting , well even going there you have people who are being influenced to actions by the devil. But the REAL thing we're talking about here is that the thorn WAS NOT a physical sickness. Your position is that God wants some to stay sick. I say and I believe the scripture reveals that's unscriptural. He wants them healed, that is....that being his perfect will.
 
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swordsman1

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You merely piled on with quite a number of individuals who share a theological bent. I could pile on with numbers of individuals who would side with my view but won't do it so it doesn't turn into my theologians are better than yours type of rebuttals. What's important is what do the scriptures say with a focus NOT merely what the King James version says but the actual greek.

Yes, but my citations are all from peer-reviewed publications by respected bible scholars. Yours would undoubtedly be from Word of Faith charlatans or amateur oddbods with a website.

It doesn't matter HOW they rendered it. What matters is what the actual greek word calls it, ἄγγελος (angelos) You've even acknowledged IT CAN MEAN ANGEL.

He would not have had to do that at all. Even in the other scriptures devils are called angels (albeit fallen ones) "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." Matt 25: 41 The scriptures did not say the devil and his 'daimonion's there....It said the devil and his angels. ἄγγελος (angelos)

Well, when the majority of bible translations render 2 Cor 12:7 as 'angel' and when at least some of the commentators acknowledge this could mean a demon, then we can begin to take your idea seriously. Until then, I'm afraid it will remain on the theological scrap heap.

But the REAL thing we're talking about here is that the thorn WAS NOT a physical sickness. Your position is that God wants some to stay sick. I say and I believe the scripture reveals that's unscriptural. He wants them healed, that is....that being his perfect will.

Says you. All the commentators I have quoted say that a physical ailment is not only possible but most likely IS Paul's 'thorn in the flesh'. And they give their reasons for it being so. They also all agree that it was God who gave Paul the 'thorn' for his own good, and that God refused to heal him of his problem despite Paul's repeated prayers.
 
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Bobber

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Yes, but my citations are all from peer-reviewed publications by respected bible scholars. Yours would undoubtedly be from Word of Faith charlatans or amateur oddbods with a website.

LOL,LOL. Well like I said. When one gets into a discussion on that level you're going with my theologians are better than your theologians and you're GETTING AWAY from what the actual manuscripts say and your going away from each one testing all things and holding fast to that which is good. 1 The 5:21 I don't want to play that game for your off of Thus Saith The Lord and only the Lord when you do so. And each one should keep in mind they said this about Jesus Christ as well. You have to know they made charges and claims he Jesus was a charlatan, and who is this Peter anyway. Ignorant oddbods and some in that day would say, VERY, VERY IGNORANT PEOPLE! Acts 4:18 The question is are you REALLY sure you want to go down that road? I can only hope people here don't want to make the same huge mistake that they did. They in effect MISSED what God was trying to say.

Well, when the majority of bible translations render 2 Cor 12:7 as 'angel'....

You're not getting it are you? You've already acknowledged it CAN mean angel for in the greek it is the word for it. The means you can't slam the door against the use of it for it is the greek word. Messenger...still is a messenger of Satan not God for that's what it said.

....and when at least some of the commentators acknowledge this could mean a demon, then we can begin to take your idea seriously. Until then, I'm afraid it will remain on the theological scrap heap.

Forget the commentators. I've shown you the greek. Now what do you say? So you say this man of God says this and this one says that. How about you argue your position from the scriptures' and not their opinions.

All the commentators I have quoted say that a physical ailment is not only possible but most likely IS Paul's 'thorn in the flesh'.

I'm well aware they do. One of them suggested the following that in Gal 4:13 Paul speaks of a weakness of the flesh (σάρξ) and proceeds to acknowledge the willingness of the Galatians to pluck out their eyes and give them to him (4:15) Sorry but these men don't get the obvious. That the people were using an idiom and idiom which has probably been used throughout all history albeit changed somewhat. When one says today I'd give my right arm to you if it'd help should you think people 1000 years later would have justification to believe poor Swordman...there must have been something wrong with his arm! I think not. I think you'd say, "Come on folks! Understand what an idiom is!" So sadly here we are today. People are refusing to accept the historical context of words and I don't care what commentators they are nor who they are. With all due respect it's time to grow up.

And one of your commentators suggested maybe God used Satan to impart an inflictions for discipline illness. Have these individuals really thought through on what they're saying? That would mean Paul could never be healed, NEVER get rid of some illness and what applied to Christians to whom James wrote wouldn't apply to him.... if he has committed sins they shall be forgiven him and the Lord shall raise him up. Surely you've got to see there's a weakness to their arguments?


And they give their reasons for it being so. They also all agree that it was God who gave Paul the 'thorn' for his own good, and that God refused to heal him of his problem despite Paul's repeated prayers.

And that's a violation of James 5:15

Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. (He said ANYONE and God is not a respecter of persons)
 
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Bobber

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Have you been healed? If so, what was your condition, how long did you have it, and when did the healing come? I would like to understand your perspective on the subject.

~bella
Sure I had a bad flue come on me a few years ago. Jesus said speak to the mountain (metaphor for a big problem) and commanded it to leave plus other declared and thanked him continually for what he did on the cross took my infirmities and carried my sickness and declared by his stripes I am healed. The cold chills I was having and temperature left me and when I got to work I was fine. I do believe though if one isn't getting pretty much a instant manifestation of something especially for potentially a serious issue they better see a doctor immediately, as in heart problems, or symptoms of stroke. To the hospital without delay. I also do believe God can work with and through Doctors.

Had a situation with my adult daughter just recently. They found a 3 inch cyst on her spine. They weren't given MRI's to large numbers because of covid but they finally got in. Shocked at what they found. She wanted to go the Doctors way BUT it's not Doctor or God in our book it's God AND the Doctor. Prayed and agreed God would impart special insight to the Doctor even added to his training, revelation wisdom from God and she came out of it fine. His exact words were this is astounding. Exact words. Nobody recovers from this the speed you have. She now back to work full time and even working another job. We give God all the praise for his goodness and mercy!
 
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bèlla

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Thank you for replying. I’ve been healed from Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Fibromyaligia, and a bulging disc. The latter was confirmed in the presence of medical personnel. It was for their edification. Not mine. I already knew His healing power. I’ve written about each on the site.

Nevertheless, I would NEVER tell a believer they’re doing something wrong or must adhere to a formula. God chose to heal me. For others, their ailment is a cross or serves a greater purpose for His glory.

~bella
 
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