fhansen

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Review any lexicon on the Greek. It means none of this. What you are claiming is that we are saved by our lifestyle. That's what the Pharisees thought.
Yes, the Pharisees believed we justify ourselves, that we're made just because of what we do: observing the commandments, etc. This is a matter of legalism. The New Covenant is different, however; man is made just- justfied- by God, through faith. This is a matter of grace. Paul contrasts the difference in Phil 3:
"But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith." Phil 3:7-9

So we must fully understand what faith means. It means not merely believing in God and His promises, or even strictly trusting in/relying on Him. It means more, it means a life with Him, of knowing Him, the life man was made for-so that with His grace we may gain eternal life via the only authentic means to do so. So without even referring to the 2nd chapter of James, we have Paul telling us:

“To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.”
Rom 2:7

“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.”
Rom 2:13

“Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.“ Rom 5:1-2

“…just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Rom 5:21

"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Rom 6:22-23

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” Rom 8:12-13

Much violence is done to the gospel by those who would seek to separate faith from the obligation for man to be righteous, to separate justifcation from man being made personally just/righteous, when in truth faith is the authentic means to finally achieving that righteousness in man, by God the only true Way, He fulfulling the New Covenant prophecy of Jer 31 by 'putting His law in our minds and writing it on our hearts'.

Faith, along with the other virtues of hope and love, is both a supernatural gift and a daily human choice-to pick up our cross and follow.
 
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Jay Sea

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OBNC equals OSAS.

So, what does it stand for? Once Belief, No Condemnation. iow, once a person believes in Christ for salvation, they cannot be condemned.

Does the Bible teach this? Of course it does.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

So, what does "have not believed" mean exactly? Real simple. It means "have NEVER believed".

Some have argued that "have not believed" does NOT mean "have never believed". So, I will demonstrate why it does mean that exactly.

If you (the reader of this post) have NEVER murdered anyone, it means you "have not murdered" anyone. See how that works?

However, if you (reader) EVER DID murder anyone, it means that you "have murdered" anyone.

So, the terms "have not" and "never" are synonymous.

Therefore, once a person HAS BELIEVED in Christ for salvation, it means you cannot say that they "have not believed".

Therefore, Chuck Templeton and Simon the sorcerer are both in heaven right now.

Why? Both had believed in Christ for salvation. Therefore, neither one can be condemned.

So says the Bible.
Should it not be OTNC ie Trust not simply belief.
In LOve
Jay Sea
 
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FreeGrace2

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Yes, the Pharisees believed we justify ourselves, that we're made just because of what we do: observing the commandments, etc. This is a matter of legalism. The New Covenant is different, however; man is made just- justfied- by God, through faith. This is a matter of grace.
You are preaching to the choir. As long as you don't mean that our action of believing is a gift from God. That is unbiblical.

Paul contrasts the difference in Phil 3:
"But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith." Phil 3:7-9

So we must fully understand what faith means. It means not merely believing in God and His promises, or even strictly trusting in/relying on Him. It means more, it means a life with Him, of knowing Him, the life man was made for-so that with His grace we may gain eternal life via the only authentic means to do so.
OK, you left the choir here. John 5:24 is very clear. Those who believe HAVE eternal life, which is a gift. Both "believe" and "have" in that verse are present tense, meaning that the MOMENT one believes, being now a believer, they possess eternal life.

iow, the gift of eternal life is given WHEN a person believes. Not after a life of whatever you think is required. It's an immediate gift.

And then in John 10:28 Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Therefore, from the MOMENT WHEN one believes in Christ, they shall never perish.

Salvation has nothing to do with our lifestyle. That said, I'm NOT giving a pass to those who think they can just live it up after believing in Christ. While they shall never perish, as Jesus PROMISED, they will have a life of pain, because Heb 12:11 says that God's discipline is painful. Who does God discipline? His disobedient children, of course.

So without even referring to the 2nd chapter of James, we have Paul telling us:

“To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.”
Rom 2:7
Maybe you aren't aware of what Paul followed this verse with:

Rom 3:20 - Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

So, 2:7 is how to have eternal life by your own works; be perfect in your life.

Which, of course, is impossible for everyone.

“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Rom 2:13

“Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.“ Rom 5:1-2
Again, back to Rom 3:20. No one will be justified by the law.

Only a perfect person earns heaven. All others, namely all human beings, cannot be saved by their lifestyle or works. That's why Christ came to earth and paid the sin debt for everyone. Thereby obtaining the gift of eternal life for everyone. And he gives this gift to those who trust in Him for it.

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” Rom 8:12-13
Paul is showing to believers a choice. "We have an obligation" he wrote. But he clarified that it isn't to the flesh, to live according to it, but by the Spirit. That's our obligation.

btw, please don't misunderstand "if you live according to the flesh, You will die". I'm sure you are aware that a believer who sins doesn't fall dead immediately. And since Jesus promised eternal life to believers WHEN they believe (Jn 5:24), they cannot die or perish.

So, what was Paul referring to? He was using "die" in the sense of loss of fellowship with the Lord. Read and study the first chapter of 1 John. He used "fellowship" 4 times in 3 verses. That was the subject of his first chapter. A believer who sins is out of fellowship with the Lord, or "dead to the Lord" because of what Psa 66:18 says -
If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:

Much violence is done to the gospel by those who would seek to separate faith from the obligation for man to be righteous, to separate justifcation from man being made personally just/righteous, when in truth faith is the authentic means to finally achieving that righteousness in man, by God the only true Way, He fulfulling the New Covenant prophecy of Jer 31 by 'putting His law in our minds and writing it on our hearts'.
The obligation is in NO PART a requirement for salvation.

You are simply conflating two different issues. Salvation and spiritual growth.

Faith, along with the other virtues of hope and love, is both a supernatural gift and a daily human choice-to pick up our cross and follow.
This is not related to getting saved in any way.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Should it not be OTNC ie Trust not simply belief.
In LOve
Jay Sea
Could you explain the difference between trust and belief, since the Bible uses the word 'believe' much more than trust.

I see no difference. To trust someone is to believe what they say.
 
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renniks

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Explain how a person who did at a point in their life believed in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life.

Explain how them now, not believing, negates their previous belief that gave them Eternal Life.
Explain how it doesn't. Show me where in the Bible it says that non-believers are granted eternal life.
 
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renniks

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This is a common excuse to avoid the obvious issue. The present tense is being ABUSED when you make this claim.

The present tense was used by Jesus in John 5:24 about those who believe (presently) HAVE (presently) eternal life.

Then, in John 10:28 Jesus said those He gives eternal life (believers, from 5:24) they shall never perish.

I believe what Jesus said. The issue is: do you?
Yes. I believe Jesus gives eternal life to believers and that believers will never perish.

Anyone who no longer believes obviously doesn't qualify.
 
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d taylor

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Explain how it doesn't. Show me where in the Bible it says that non-believers are granted eternal life.

Parable of the sower, only one soil did not believe and receive Eternal Life. The other three believed and received Eternal Life. But only one soil produced fruit.

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,

Then the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live.” So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.

Did the Hebrew people have to keep looking at the snake to be healed and to stay healed or did the healing take place after just one look.
 
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FreeGrace2

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d taylor said:
Explain how a person who did at a point in their life believed in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life.

Explain how them now, not believing, negates their previous belief that gave them Eternal Life.
Explain how it doesn't. Show me where in the Bible it says that non-believers are granted eternal life.
You are basically DENYING both verses; John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12.

The Bible never describes a believer who ceases to believe as an "unbeliever" and the 2 verses prove WHY. Once belief, No condemnation. That's what they mean.

Or prove from Scripture that a believer who ceases to believe ceases to be saved.

That's the ONLY way to defend your view.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Yes. I believe Jesus gives eternal life to believers and that believers will never perish.
It appears you have a reading comprehension challenge.

John 10:28 does NOT SAY "believers". Jesus spoke of those He gave eternal life, and the result of being given eternal life is that they shall never perish.
The real point is about recipients of the gift of eternal life. When Jesus said "I give them eternal life" He was making the point of who is given the gift of eternal life. That means RECIPIENTS OF THE GIFT.

So the point of John 10:28 is that those given eternal life shall never perish.

Or prove me wrong by executing 10:28 to show that Jesus didn't say that about recipients of eternal life.

Your comment really tries to twist and pervert the Scriptures.

Anyone who no longer believes obviously prove doesn't qualify.
OK prove it with a verse that SAYS believers who no longer believe are no longer saved

If you can't do that, you have no case. Just opinions.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Parable of the sower, only one soil did not believe and receive Eternal Life. The other three believed and received Eternal Life. But only one soil produced fruit.
Exactly! It was a parable about fruit production, not how to be saved.

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,

Then the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live.” So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.

Did the Hebrew people have to keep looking at the snake to be healed and to stay healed or did the healing take place after just one look.
Excellent point!
 
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Jay Sea

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Could you explain the difference between trust and belief, since the Bible uses the word 'believe' much more than trust.

I see no difference. To trust someone is to believe what they say.
I can say I believe someone or something because I can see or have verified that what is said is true or could be true. I say I trust when I have a high degree of confidence that what is said is true or the person is trustworthy who said it.
In Love
Jay Sea
 
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fhansen

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You are preaching to the choir. As long as you don't mean that our action of believing is a gift from God. That is unbiblical.
Faith is a gift of God, the act of believing is a human choice-of accepting and expressing that gift.
OK, you left the choir here.
Actually I only left the modern choir, not the original.
John 5:24 is very clear. Those who believe HAVE eternal life, which is a gift. Both "believe" and "have" in that verse are present tense, meaning that the MOMENT one believes, being now a believer, they possess eternal life.
And yet we're told how to gain eternal life:
"If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous."
Rom 2:13

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live."
Rom 8:12-13

The reason is because the two are linked: faith and righteousness-but they are not the same; faith is not the equivalent of righteousnes for man nor is it the replacement for obedience/ righteousness. The first, faith, simply opens the door to and enables the second, righteouness. We're justifed by faith.
Maybe you aren't aware of what Paul followed this verse with:

Rom 3:20 - Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
Of course, which is why the works spoken of in, for example, Rom 2:7, are definitely not works of the law but rather works of grace for the believer in Christ, works prepared for him in advance (Eph 2:10), those things done "for the least of these": works that we'll be judged on as per Matt 25. These kinds of works, moved by the Spirit, are motivated by love, which is why the Church of Christ, quoting a 16th century believer in this case can wisely teach,
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

Humble love, agape, is the full-true definition of justice or righteousness for man which is why the greatest commandments are what they are, and why Paul identified love in 1 Cor 13 as the most important compared to the two other virtues of faith and hope. Again, faith is the doorway to that righteousness, by virtue of being the direct pathway to God. And again, only God can make man just. And this is why the law cannot justify us but only serve as a teacher, can only highlight the fact that we cannot be just on our own-we fail miserably at the task; man needs God, 'apart from whom he can do nothing' but 'with whom all things are possible'.
So, 2:7 is how to have eternal life by your own works; be perfect in your life.
Um, no, it's how to have eternal life. Righteousness can never be separated from, well... righteousness- as if righteuosness were merely imputed to man. That would mean nothing changes as a result of Christ's work. But His work involves more than merely forgivness of sin, but of the actual taking away of sin, making us into new creations. The New Covenant simply gives us the only authentic means of finally acheiving that righteousness, the right way, God's way. So after Rom 3:20 Paul continues:
"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe." Rom 3:21-22

“Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.”
1 John 3:7-8
Which, of course, is impossible for everyone.
God's asking for something, some real change in orientation now towards personal righteuosness. The alternative is that we could stay in total, wanton, grave sin, which Scripture warns us will keep us from entering heaven. But God never created man to be a sinner to begin with and the purpose, the perfection, that God has in mind for man for will ultimately be obtained for each of us who open the door to Him, and remain in Him and He in us. He'll never leave us tho; but we can boot Him out if we so foolishly choose. Either way the journey is to begin here, in this life.
Paul is showing to believers a choice. "We have an obligation" he wrote. But he clarified that it isn't to the flesh, to live according to it, but by the Spirit. That's our obligation.

btw, please don't misunderstand "if you live according to the flesh, You will die". I'm sure you are aware that a believer who sins doesn't fall dead immediately. And since Jesus promised eternal life to believers WHEN they believe (Jn 5:24), they cannot die or perish.

So, what was Paul referring to? He was using "die" in the sense of loss of fellowship with the Lord.
Yes!!! And loss of fellowship with God is man's death-just as it consituted Adam's death in the beginning.
The obligation is in NO PART a requirement for salvation.

You are simply conflating two different issues. Salvation and spiritual growth.
The obligation is absolutely a requirement for salvation. Man simply wishes to shirk his obligation but that obligation never went away with the New Covenant; it's fulfillment was finally made possible by it, in fact. And that's the consistent teaching of historic Chrisitanity, along with Scripture, in both the east and west. The mature understanding of our faith is that man is oblagated to love, because love of God would've precluded Adam's sin while love of neighbor would've prelduded most of the rest that followed. Adam hadn't yet obtained the wisdom to know and value the love of God as he should. Here's a relevant quote from another believer, a 4th century bishop in this case:
"If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children." Basil of Cesarea

And more related pasages for your perusal:

Here is a trustworthy saying:


If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.
2 Tim 2:11-13

"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." Gal 6:7-9

"If indeed they have escaped the corruption of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, only to be entangled and overcome by it again, their final condition is worse than it was at first. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and then to turn away from the holy commandment passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.” 2 Pet 2:20-22
 
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renniks

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Parable of the sower, only one soil did not believe and receive Eternal Life. The other three believed and received Eternal Life. But only one soil produced fruit.

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,

Then the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live.” So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.

Did the Hebrew people have to keep looking at the snake to be healed and to stay healed or did the healing take place after just one look.
I can not take this seriously. It doesn't answer the question.
The parable of the sower shows that you can stop believing, and it will cost your salvation.
 
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renniks

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d taylor said:
Explain how a person who did at a point in their life believed in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life.

Explain how them now, not believing, negates their previous belief that gave them Eternal Life.

You are basically DENYING both verses; John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12.

The Bible never describes a believer who ceases to believe as an "unbeliever" and the 2 verses prove WHY. Once belief, No condemnation. That's what they mean.

Or prove from Scripture that a believer who ceases to believe ceases to be saved.

That's the ONLY way to defend your view.
No, "He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God."

You are the one denying what this verse says.
It doesn't say that if you believe once you are forever saved.
 
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renniks

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It appears you have a reading comprehension challenge.

John 10:28 does NOT SAY "believers". Jesus spoke of those He gave eternal life, and the result of being given eternal life is that they shall never perish.
The real point is about recipients of the gift of eternal life. When Jesus said "I give them eternal life" He was making the point of who is given the gift of eternal life. That means RECIPIENTS OF THE GIFT.

So the point of John 10:28 is that those given eternal life shall never perish.

Or prove me wrong by executing 10:28 to show that Jesus didn't say that about recipients of eternal life.

Your comment really tries to twist and pervert the Scriptures.


OK prove it with a verse that SAYS believers who no longer believe are no longer saved

If you can't do that, you have no case. Just opinions.
"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,"

"Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. As it is said, “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.” For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? ..."

"And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved."

". For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off."

If you don't continue in faith you will be cut off.
 
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I can say I believe someone or something because I can see or have verified that what is said is true or could be true. I say I trust when I have a high degree of confidence that what is said is true or the person is trustworthy who said it.
In Love
Jay Sea
Sure. Your first example is belief from experience. But since none of us have experience, we take God's Word on trust. But the Bible still calls that believing in Christ. But of course it is trust.

Believing comes from trust or experience.

The demons "believe that God is One" from experience. There is no trust or faith.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Faith is a gift of God, the act of believing is a human choice-of accepting and expressing that gift.
I'm tired of having to repeatedly correct people on this "faith is a gift thing".

So, let's be clear. Faith is a noun. Faith is what believers believe, which is what God's Words says. All of it. That is our faith. See, a noun.

So, in that noun sense, ok, God has given us His Word, so in that sense, faith is a gift.

But too many people (Calvinists particularly) claim that the action of believing (verb) is a gift from God. Not so. Man believes from the heart. Rom 10:10. Regardless of how someone spins that verse, believing is a choice, a decision from the heart to trust in what God has said regarding salvation. It's all about trust. And trust is NOT a gift.

FreeGrace2 said:
John 5:24 is very clear. Those who believe HAVE eternal life, which is a gift. Both "believe" and "have" in that verse are present tense, meaning that the MOMENT one believes, being now a believer, they possess eternal life.
And yet we're told how to gain eternal life:
"If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17
This really proves that you do not believe John 5:24. The key to HAVING eternal life is to believe. Not keeping the commandments.

And you couldn't have picked a WORSE verse to try to prove your works salvation point.

Those words of Jesus were directed to a rich young ruler (RYR) who asked Him how to obtain eternal life. He thought he was keeping the commandments. So Jesus started with that idea. Then Jesus got to the real deal. The RYR had been violating the very FIRST one. Instead of loving the Lord with ALL of his heart, mind and soul, he loved his wealth above all. And what Jesus told him to do proved that. He went away sad.

So, Matt 19:17 isn't even about getting eternal life. Jesus just used that opening to get to the heart of his problem.

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13
If you believe this is they way to get into heaven, Paul has some very bad news for you.

Rom 3:20 - Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

So this verse proves that NO ONE will get to heaven by keeping the law. In fact, Gal 3 is all about the purpose of the Law (works), which was to lead us to Christ.

FreeGrace2 said:
So, 2:7 is how to have eternal life by your own works; be perfect in your life.
Um, no, it's how to have eternal life.
So you believe that man can become perfect or sinless huh.

If that's your view, we're done because that is simply absurd and outlandish.

So after Rom 3:20 Paul continues:
"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe." Rom 3:21-22
But how can you believe v.22 after all you've claimed about the law? Righteousness is given "to all who believe".

Yes!!! And loss of fellowship with God is man's death-just as it consituted Adam's death in the beginning.
You misunderstand the difference between fellowship and relationship.

Let's use the prodigal for an example. The father and son have a permanent relationship. iow, there is no way to undo that relationship. And in the parable the son continued to be his son. However, what died and was lost was fellowship. In first Century Palestine, any idiot kid who asked for his inheritance while his father was still alive was in essence telling ol' dad that he wished he were dead. That's how shocking Jesus' parable was for those He told it to. The prodigal was very rude and disgusting by what he was asking for. That's the reason the older son had so little regard for his idiot brother. But the parable was about God's grace, plus confession of sin and repentance (returning) which is restoration of fellowship.

So, the relationship continued because it is PERMANENT. But fellowship is the state of the relationship.

Or take marriage as another example. In God's economy, marriage is to be PERMANENT. However, within that relationship, there can be loss of fellowship when one offends the other.

The obligation is absolutely a requirement for salvation.
The only requirement for salvation is trusting in Jesus Christ as Savior.

And more related pasages for your perusal:

Here is a trustworthy saying:


If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.
2 Tim 2:11-13
In v.12 the "enduring" will result in the eternal reward of "reigning with Him", which means in His Millennial kingdom that He will set up on earth after the Trib.

The better word than "disown" is "deny". So the believer either endures or denies. They are opposites. Those who deny will be denied reigning with Him. It's that simple.

And v.13 is clear: regardless of our faithlessness, God remains faithful and He CANNOT deny or disown Himself. Who indwells every believer? God the Holy Spirit.

So even a faithless believer (that would be lifestyle faith) won't be denied by the Father since the Holy Spirit indwells him.

This passage teaches eternal security. Among many others.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I can not take this seriously. It doesn't answer the question.
The parable of the sower shows that you can stop believing, and it will cost your salvation.
Yes, Jesus was clear that believers can stop believing. He said so clearly. However, what He didn't and NEVER said was that doing so will result in loss of salvation, as you presume.

The "falling away" refers back to "cease to believe". That's all.

btw, since you do believe that salvation can be lost, that means a former believer WILL PERISH the.

However, Jesus said in John 5:24 that those who believe HAVE (as in possess) eternal life.

Then, in John 10:28 He said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

So your claims are in direct contrast with what Jesus taught. You might want to re-think your claims, so they become in line with what Jesus taught.
 
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FreeGrace2

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No, "He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God."

You are the one denying what this verse says.
You couldn't be more wrong.

There is another verse that teaches the same thing.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Both verses have the same words: "have not believed". Those are the ones who will be condemned.

The words "have not believed" means "have never believed".

I'll prove it.

Let's say that you have not murdered anyone. Therefore, it can legitimately be said that you have NEVER murdered anyone.

iow, if you "have not" done something, you NEVER did it.

However, if you EVER did something, you cannot say that you "have not done it". Because you actually did it.

It doesn't say that if you believe once you are forever saved.
It means the exact same thing. Just like John 10:28.

But you seem unwilling to believe any of these very clear verses.

And you have zero verses that unambiguously say that salvation can be lost.

So it's only a presumption on your part to believe that.
 
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FreeGrace2

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It appears you have a reading comprehension challenge.

John 10:28 does NOT SAY "believers". Jesus spoke of those He gave eternal life, and the result of being given eternal life is that they shall never perish.
The real point is about recipients of the gift of eternal life. When Jesus said "I give them eternal life" He was making the point of who is given the gift of eternal life. That means RECIPIENTS OF THE GIFT.
"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,"
And where are any words that suggest or say that salvation will be lost? Nowhere.

If you don't agree with my point about John 10:28, please explain how I am wrong.

Nothing that followed in your post stated that salvation can be lost. All you have is presumption applied to the verses you quoted.

What you cannot refute is John 10:28 that tells us that recipients of eternal life shall NEVER perish. btw, that's a real long time.

And John 5:24 teaches that those who believe possess eternal life. So, the MOMENT one believes, they ARE a believer and they possess eternal life.

So, from the MOMENT one believes savingly in Christ, Jesus SAYS they shall never perish.

So, please quit trying to refute what Jesus taught. It's not becoming of a Christian.
 
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