The fate of Satan, the beast and his demons mirror each other

Douggg · Sep 26, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
So, they didn't have that promise before Christ's death and resurrection, right? So, do you think this change "following the cross and resurrection" had any effect on Satan? If so, how much?

Satan attacks Christians so the gospel is not spread and tries to draw Christians away from the gospel. Therefore, Christians are told to put on the whole armor of God. Ephesian 6:11-13.

10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Proof in verse 13 that Satan has not been bound and cast into the bottomless pit yet.

Douggg · Sep 26, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Where does it say angels have bodies?

Because Gabriel was visually perceptible by Daniel, appearing as a man. Angels' bodies are similar to man's in form.

21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

DavidPT · Sep 26, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Totally disagree. There is nothing I can do when you will not address the evidence above. That is normally testimony to the fact that someone is in the wrong.

Here's an idea. Luke 21:20 obviously involves 70 AD. Where in that chapter does Jesus ever use the Greek word 'thlipsis'? The Greek word He does use though is this---ekdikesis

Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance(ekdikesis), that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Why didn't He instead say---For these be the days of tribulation(thlipsis), that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Douggg · Sep 26, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Believe me: there was tribulation in Jerusalem in AD70. Jesus described the wrath of God on Israel above in Matthew 24. I showed you the evidence but again you seem to have ignored. There will be tribulation before Jesus comes. That will involve the wrath of Satan on God's elect.

Tribulation of 70ad and the great unequaled tribulation of Matthew 24:15-31 are to different events.

sovereigngrace · Sep 26, 2021

DavidPT said:
Here's an idea. Luke 21:20 obviously involves 70 AD. Where in that chapter does Jesus ever use the Greek word 'thlipsis'? The Greek word He does use though is this---ekdikesis

Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance(ekdikesis), that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Why didn't He instead say---For these be the days of tribulation(thlipsis), that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Look at my color-coding, which will highlight the error of your position. They are all talking about the same thing. These are called parallel passages.

sovereigngrace · Sep 26, 2021

Douggg said:
Because Gabriel was visually perceptible by Daniel, appearing as a man. Angels' bodies are similar to man's in form.

21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

That is not proof, and you know it. Angels can appear as spirits that can be seen. There are multiple examples of that throughout the Word. But give me one single verse that says they are physical beings?

Douggg · Sep 26, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
That is not proof, and you know it. Angels can appear as spirits that can be seen. There are multiple examples of that throughout the Word. But give me one single verse that says they are physical beings?

It is proof and you know it. Gabriel was visible to Daniel, and Gabriel's body in appearance was such that Daniel called him "the man Gabriel"

"physical" is not found in the bible. Therefore I don't use the phrase "physical body". A bible argument one way or the other, therefore, cannot be made using the term "physical body".

We all know what the appearance of a man's body is. Daniel saw the man Gabriel.

It is up to you to prove that Daniel did not see Gabriel. And that Gabriel's bodily form was not that of a man.

Angels have bodies.

___________________________________________________

What you should be arguing is that Angels do have bodies, but not earthly bodies, and therefore can not be bound by earthly chains or placed in earthly prisons.

But, of course, if you did that, you would be voicing the pre-mil view.

Spiritual Jew · Sep 26, 2021

DavidPT said:
Some of you are confusing tribulation with judgment. What involved 70 AD was not tribulation but was judgment.

It was both.

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

See how it says "there shall be great distress in the land" AND "wrath upon this people"? Distress and tribulation are the same thing and wrath refers to judgment.

Spiritual Jew · Sep 26, 2021

Douggg said:
It is proof and you know it. Gabriel was visible to Daniel, and Gabriel's body in appearance was such that Daniel called him "the man Gabriel"

That was not his natural state, though. Otherwise, angels could be seen all of the time. Just because they can take a visible form does not mean they have a permanent body like human beings have.

Anyway, all of this distracts from what verses like Jude 1:6 and 2 Peter 2:4 indicate, which is that ALL fallen angels have been reserved for judgment in everlasting chains for a long time already. To interpret them as literally being in chains does not line up with reality.

Douggg · Sep 26, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Going by Zechariah 14, your millennium is a bust.

Surely the Jerusalem Premils portray in their alleged future millennium is altogether different to the one depicted in Zechariah 14:2 that is being attacked, “the houses rifled,” and “the women ravished”?

Zechariah 14:2 takes place right before Jesus returns, and thus is before the millennium begins. Half of the city going into captivity is the last ditch effort by the kings of the earth, to take the Jews there as hostages to keep Jesus from executing judgment on them.

It does not work of course, because Jesus stands on the Mt of Olives and the Jews escaped harm by fleeing through the valley created.

Spiritual Jew · Sep 26, 2021

DavidPT said:
SG does not believe that Matthew 24:31 was fulfilled in 70 AD. IOW, his interpretation is illogical.

He doesn't view the tribulation of Matthew 24:29 as being the same as the one mentioned in verse 21. There are other things that happen between the 2 tribulations, which occurs during "the times of the Gentiles" that Luke refers to in Luke 21:24.

Your refusal to acknowledge that Luke 21:20-24 is a parallel passage to Matthew 24:15-22 (and Mark 13:14-20) is the reason that you're not understanding the truth of the matter. To take all of the Olivet Discourse as referring to the same time period just does not work. You can't make sense out of it that way. It leads preterists to come to ridiculous conclusions like thinking that Christ's second coming already occurred and the gathering of the elect already occurred. It leads futurists like yourself to deny the obvious, which is that Jesus spoke partly about things related to the destruction of the temple buildings standing at that time.

Douggg · Sep 26, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
That was not his natural state, though. Otherwise, angels could be seen all of the time. Just because they can take a visible form does not mean they have a permanent body like human beings have.

Angels have bodies. They are not always visible to men, athough present, because they are multiple realm beings.

Another proof that Angels have bodies - is that Satan will be made visible that all present at that time can behold him. Ezekiel 28:16-19.

That event will be at Jesus's return, when the abomination of desolation image with be turned to ashes. When Satan will be cast into the bottomless pit.

Spiritual Jew · Sep 26, 2021

Douggg said:
Matthew 24:15--22 is not.

I am not asking for your interpretation of the text of Matthew 24:15-31. I am asking you for proof that it has happened. Jesus coming in great power and glory, . And the gathering of the elect from the four the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. In 70AD.

You have very poor reading comprehension. I agree with his interpretation of the Olivet Discourse and I know he does not believe, and has never indicated, that Jesus already came and that the elect have already been gathered. So, why are you asking him for proof that it happened?

Douggg · Sep 26, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
Your refusal to acknowledge that Luke 21:20-24 is a parallel passage to Matthew 24:15-22 (and Mark 13:14-20) is the reason that you're not understanding the truth of the matter. To take all of the Olivet Discourse as referring to the same time period just does not work.

You have grouping like verses together partly mixed up concerning the Olivet discourse and the Luke 21 parallel.

On my chart below - I do note that Luke 21 is a parallel. Jesus gave the near term (70AD) future of Israel, the long term future of Israel (forced into the nations), the end times future of Israel, Israel returned to the land.

Spiritual Jew · Sep 26, 2021

Douggg said:
You have grouping like verses together partly mixed up concerning the Olivet discourse and the Luke 21 parallel.

On my chart below - I do note that Luke 21 is a parallel.

I wasn't even talking to you, but I see that you too refuse to acknowledge that Luke 21:20-24 is a parallel passage to Matthew 24:15-22 (and Mark 13:14-20). Your chart is completely mixed up and makes no sense whatsoever.

Douggg · Sep 26, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
You have very poor reading comprehension. I agree with his interpretation of the Olivet Discourse and I know he does not believe, and has never indicated, that Jesus already came and that the elect have already been gathered. So, why are you asking him for proof that it happened?

Your saying something is not proof. Half of the Jewish population lives outside of Israel.

It is not until Jesus return, that they are all gathered back to the land of Israel. Ezekiel 39:28.

The gathering from one end of heaven to the other in Matthew 24:31 is taken from Deuteronomy 30:3-4 regarding the children of Israel.

3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

sovereigngrace · Sep 26, 2021

Douggg said:
It is proof and you know it. Gabriel was visible to Daniel, and Gabriel's body in appearance was such that Daniel called him "the man Gabriel"

"physical" is not found in the bible. Therefore I don't use the phrase "physical body". A bible argument one way or the other, therefore, cannot be made using the term "physical body".

We all know what the appearance of a man's body is. Daniel saw the man Gabriel.

It is up to you to prove that Daniel did not see Gabriel. And that Gabriel's bodily form was not that of a man.

Angels have bodies.

___________________________________________________

What you should be arguing is that Angels do have bodies, but not earthly bodies, and therefore can not be bound by earthly chains or placed in earthly prisons.

But, of course, if you did that, you would be voicing the pre-mil view.

Where does it say he had a body?

Douggg · Sep 26, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
I wasn't even talking to you, but I see that you too refuse to acknowledge that Luke 21:20-24 is a parallel passage to Matthew 24:15-22 (and Mark 13:14-20). Your chart is completely mixed up and makes no sense whatsoever.

My chart is organized according to what has been witnessed by history as proof.

70AD, then Israel forced into the nations, Israel back in the land a nation again. Where is your chart and historical proof?

sovereigngrace · Sep 26, 2021

Douggg said:
You have grouping like verses together partly mixed up concerning the Olivet discourse and the Luke 21 parallel.

On my chart below - I do note that Luke 21 is a parallel. Jesus gave the near term (70AD) future of Israel, the long term future of Israel (forced into the nations), the end times future of Israel, Israel returned to the land.

View attachment 306406

Here we have your usual pattern: when your position is exposed, and you dodge around all the clear Scripture forbidding your position, you resort to your faulty charts. I will take this as another admission that Premil cannot abide repeated Scripture.

sovereigngrace · Sep 26, 2021

Douggg said:
Zechariah 14:2 takes place right before Jesus returns, and thus is before the millennium begins. Half of the city going into captivity is the last ditch effort by the kings of the earth, to take the Jews there as hostages to keep Jesus from executing judgment on them.

It does not work of course, because Jesus stands on the Mt of Olives and the Jews escaped harm by fleeing through the valley created.

Zechariah 14:4 says, “And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.”

The prophets frequently intermixed literal and figurative language all the time. That makes it difficult to dissect. Even in the midst of the most literal of passages in the Bible, mountains are repeatedly used to impress deep spiritual truths. The predicted mountain moving ministry of John the Baptist is a case-in-point. The result of the cross saw the Gospel go out to both Jew and Gentile alike. The scope of the cross-work reached far-and-wide.

Luke 3:4-5 records, speaking of that great forerunner of Christ – John the Baptist, “As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet (in Isaiah 40:3-5), saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth.”

John 4:10, 14: "Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water ... But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."

The living waters is the Holy Spirit. The former sea represents Old Testament Israel and the hinder sea represents the overwhelmingly Gentile New Testament Church. It figuratively represents the Gospel going out to the Jews and the Gentiles through the power of the Holy Spirit.

We have already entered into the kingdom through the new birth (John 3:3), which is repeatedly described as everlasting life.

The fate of Satan, the beast and his demons mirror each other

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