The fate of Satan, the beast and his demons mirror each other

Douggg said:

First of all I am not "pre-trib". I am anytime rapture view. And it does not change that the ones resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6 will be the great tribulation martyrs, who testify of Jesus, and refuse to take the mark, the name, the number of the beast, or worship the beast. None of those things have happen yet.

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The great tribulation occurred in AD70.

Douggg said:

The great tribulation is referred to in Matthew 24:15-31. Has the world seen Jesus coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory? What is your proof that took place in 70 AD?

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

What is your proof that verse 31 took place in 70 AD ?

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The context of Matthew 24:15-22, Mark 13:14-20 and Luke 21:20-24 is clearly the destruction of Jerusalem.

In His discourse in Matthew 23:37-24:2 the Lord warns, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord (the second coming). Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? Verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

The religious Jews of Jerusalem were about to witness the destruction of their temple. Moreover, that ruination would remain in place from its demolition right up until the second coming of the Lord. The desolation of the temple significantly occurred on the wing of 40 years of idolatrous temple sacrifices (exactly a generation)? The statement “there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down” was plainly referring to, and correlating with, the warning He had just made to the religious Jews about the impending destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. It was also a direct reference to Daniel 9.

Matthew 24:1-2 records, “And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

Christ was specifically speaking here of “the buildings of the temple” not the city. You cannot anywhere find that Israel is described as this. This is literal precise detail!

Mark 13:1-2 records, “And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here. And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

In this parallel account, Mark corroborates the thought of Matthew.

Luke 21:5-6 records, “And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

The disciples then asked two questions in Matthew 24 in response to our Lord’s words.

Matthew 24:3 records:

1. “When shall these things be?”
2. “What shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”

Mark 13:4 records:

1. “When shall these things be?”
2. “What shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled (finished or ended)?”

Luke 21:7 records:

1. “When shall these things be?”
2. “What sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?”

Christ addressed both questions and both eras in chapter 24. However, because of the intermingling of His response, many Bible students suffer great confusion in identifying what aspect of the teaching relates to AD 70 and what relates to the second coming.

In His response to the first question in Matthew 24:15-22, He spoke of the end of the 40 year probationary period (AD 70), saying, “When ye (the disciples) therefore shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, whoso readeth, let him understand: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation [Gr. thlipsis], such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.”

Mark 13:14-20 says, “when ye (the disciples) shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. For in those days shall be tribulation (thlipsis), such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.”

This can only refer to the wrath of God being poured out on Jerusalem that destroyed the existing socio-political/cultural/religious system of Judaism, which was an offence to God. This people were decimated. Their religious system was effectively brought to nought. Nothing before AD 70, or after it, could compare in regard to the extent of its demise. Luke 21:20-24 reinforces that we are looking at AD 70.

Luke’s parallel passage, in Luke 21:20-24, records, “when ye (the disciples) shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”

Please note the close correlation between these 3 accounts of the same event - AD70. A comparison of these three parallel narratives will see the correspondence in teaching. Pay especial notice of what is highlighted in brown. This proves that this is an historic event that pertains to the judgment of Jerusalem as a punishment for their rejection of Christ and has been long fulfilled.

Whatever people are in view in whatever location (the Bible says Jerusalem and Judea not Johannesburg or Jaffa), they are limited if fleeing “on the sabbath day” (Saturday). This certainly isn't a restriction to American Christians, maybe Israeli ones. Now, why would such a matter be a limitation to one fleeing the great tribulation? Simple. Because of the strict Pharisaic Law in Israel at that time that restricted the actual distance a Jew could walk on the Sabbath day (Friday sunset to Saturday sunset), as it was a religious day of rest. Jews were only allowed to only walk three quarters of a mile on the Sabbath before they would break the day of rest. At the time of Jesus the Jewish authorities closed the gates of the city on the Sabbath; therefore flight from the city on that day would have been extremely difficult. How can the Futurists serious relate such a restriction (1) to the Church and (2) the period preceding "the end of the age"? This last assertion further supports the view that the Jewish capital is the setting and the Jews living in that city (prior to AD 70) are the subjects receiving this warning.

DavidPT said:

Based on what the text tells us that is a legit question needing a answer to if one is going to make wild claims that the GT was in 70 AD.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

the tribulation of those days is undeniably meaning the great trib. It even says so in Matthew 24:21. The text then goes on to say---Immediately after the GT---the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. Did any of that happen immediately after 70 AD? Of course not. That obviously means the GT can't be meaning 70 AD since it disagrees with Matthew 24:29.

And the funny thing about it, it is some of these same ones who can't even grasp that the GT was not in 70 AD that are telling us we are wrong about when the millennium is. And we are supposed to trust that they are correct about that when they can't even get the timing of the GT correct?

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Matthew 24:29-31 refers to the last trumpet. Jesus says of His Coming, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming [Gr. erchomai] in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and ‘they shall gather together’ [Gr. episunago] his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

This is referring to the exact same event as is described in 1 Thessalonians 4. It is the coming of the Lord that is signaled by the sound of the last trump and the uniting of the elect both on earth and in heaven. Christ tells us that the angels “shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” This agrees with Paul’s assertion in 1 Thessalonians 4 that Christ will come with and for His saints at His Coming. Those saints that the angels gather in heaven are the "dead in Christ," those that are gathered from the four winds of the earth are 'the live in Christ'. This is describing the same event. Moreover, this passage locates the catching away at the end of the tribulation, not seven years before it. There is no 7-year tribulation period mentioned in Matthew 24:29-30, or anywhere else for that matter.

Jesus repeats that truth in the parallel passage in Mark 13:24-27, 31-32: “in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming [Gr. erchomai] in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall ‘gather together’ [Gr. episunago] his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven ... Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.”

The first thing we should note here is that Jesus tells us that the “coming” of the Lord and the gathering (i.e. catching away) of the saints occurs after the tribulation. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 and this correlate and negate the Pretrib argument that the “gathering” (i.e. catching away) of the saints occurs before the tribulation period. Not only does He gather the living elect “from the four winds... of the earth” but He also gathers His elect from “the uttermost part of heaven.” Jesus comes “with” and “for” His saints. This challenges the popular Pretrib theory that Christ is simply coming “for” His saints the second time and coming “with” his saints the third time (7yrs later).

Matthew 24:35-39 continues: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be.”

The removal of the current heaven and earth is here connected to the coming of the Lord. After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

DavidPT said:

I don't have a dispute with the majority of this, if any of this. My dispute is with the idea that the GT was in 70 AD.

Jesus is the speaker in Matthew 24 and Jesus is never wrong about anything, and I'm certain we all at least agree with that. Jesus said in Matthew 24:29 that immediately, the keyword being immediately, following the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened, etc.


In Matthew 24:29 the Greek word for tribulation is thlipsis. In the Discourse that same Greek word is used in all of following passages unless I overlooked one and neglected to include it.

Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted(thlipsis), and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation(thlipsis), such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation(thlipsis) of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mark 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction(thlipsis), such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation(thlipsis), the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,


Based on Matthew 24:9 alone it is plainly obvious that tribulation involving unbelieving Jews in 70 AD is not what that verse is referring to. Those being delivered up to be afflicted are not unbelieving Jews but are instead professed Christians. Even you, though you claim the GT was 70 AD, would not disagree with that, or at least I don't think you would.

There is no GT in the Discourse involving unbelieving Jews in 70 AD. The GT involves the persecution of the church. Why some of you can't see that, is beyond me? There has to be some Amils though since I find it hard to believe that every single Amil on the planet thinks the GT involved 70 AD, who agree that the GT involves the persecution of the church instead. IOW, this has nothing to do with Premil vs Amil but has to do with who is agreeing with Jesus in the Discourse and who is not. BTW, there are also Premils that agree with you, yet, not all Premils agree with those Premils that agree with you, I know I certainly don't.

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Believe me: there was tribulation in Jerusalem in AD70. Jesus described the wrath of God on Israel above in Matthew 24. I showed you the evidence but again you seem to have ignored. There will be tribulation before Jesus comes. That will involve the wrath of Satan on God's elect.

DavidPT said:

Some of you are confusing tribulation with judgment. What involved 70 AD was not tribulation but was judgment. I have even noted some arguing in the past, using Noah's flood as an example, that that was a greater tribulation than the GT recorded in the Discourse. Noah's flood was not a tribulation though, it was a judgment. No one was being persecuted by anyone at the time. Calling something like that tribulation rather than judgment would be like calling Revelation 19:21 tribulation rather than judgment. Matthew 24:29 already proves that the GT is already over with by the time Jesus returns. That alone proves that Revelation 19:21 does not involve tribulation, therefore, proving there is a difference between tribulation and judgment. Once again, 70 AD involved judgment not tribulation.

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Totally disagree. There is nothing I can do when you will not address the evidence above. That is normally testimony to the fact that someone is in the wrong.

Douggg said:

Matthew 24:15--22 is not.

I am not asking for your interpretation of the text of Matthew 24:15-31. I am asking you for proof that it has happened. Jesus coming in great power and glory, . And the gathering of the elect from the four the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. In 70AD.

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There are two tribulations in Matthew 24, one relating to AD70 and one preceding the Coming of Christ. Premils seem to miss that. They are different in the nature, origin and their focus. There is the great tribulation of God upon Israel in AD70, and the tribulation of Satan upon the righteous at the end.

[/QUOTE]In Zechariah 14, when Jesus returns and stands on the Mt. of Olives it will split in half. Since it is not split in half, Jesus has not returned.[/QUOTE]

Going by Zechariah 14, your millennium is a bust.

• Surely the Jerusalem Premils portray in their alleged future millennium is altogether different to the one depicted in Zechariah 14:2 that is being attacked, “the houses rifled,” and “the women ravished”?
• How can women in the millennium be "ravished" (or raped) when no one in Jerusalem is even mortal anymore (Zechariah 14:2)?
• Zechariah 14:2-3, tells us that the result of the attack of the nations against Jerusalem is that “half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.” Surely this contradicts the whole Premillennial portrayal of Jerusalem during the millennium? This surely runs contrary to the perfect pristine peaceful Jerusalem Premils like to present in their literature, where Israel is exalted to a racially privileged position for 1,000 years?

Douggg said:

The point is that they will have a body.

Angels are beings who's estate is in heaven (unless they have been cast out), they have bodies of some sort. You are claiming that they have no bodies. Daniel recognized Gabriel in Daniel 9, so that proves that angels have bodies.


The chains are real, but not earthly chains. Who are you, a human who cannot travel into the realm of the bottomless pit, to tell us anything?

So you are claiming that the angels who kept not there first estate have not been isolated from the rest of creation? But have no basis for your claim. Your view is just the opposite of what is in the text.

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Where does it say angels have bodies?

DavidPT said:

SG does not believe that Matthew 24:31 was fulfilled in 70 AD. IOW, his interpretation is illogical. Yet, he holds some of the same views as some Preterists hold, involving some of this. But at least the way Preterists are interpreting this, though I disagree with their interpretation, they have Matthew 24:31 involving the same time period that 70 AD is involving. That's the proper way to go about things by having Matthew 24:31 meaning the same era of time the tribulation of those days are involving. Yet, they are still wrong because they have misidentified the era of time the trib of those days are involving. SG's interpretation, it is making nonsense out of 'Immediately after' recorded in Matthew 24:29 altogether. 2000 years later, or what ever amount of time it ends up being after the time of the GT when the sun goes dark, etc, is not immediately after 70 AD if it is instead 2000 years later.

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Address my post above or stop your false charges: The fate of Satan, the beast and his demons mirror each other