O.B.N.C.

fhansen · Sep 26, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
OBNC equals OSAS.

So, what does it stand for? Once Belief, No Condemnation. iow, once a person believes in Christ for salvation, they cannot be condemned.

Does the Bible teach this? Of course it does.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

So, what does "have not believed" mean exactly? Real simple. It means "have NEVER believed".

Some have argued that "have not believed" does NOT mean "have never believed". So, I will demonstrate why it does mean that exactly.

If you (the reader of this post) have NEVER murdered anyone, it means you "have not murdered" anyone. See how that works?

However, if you (reader) EVER DID murder anyone, it means that you "have murdered" anyone.

So, the terms "have not" and "never" are synonymous.

Therefore, once a person HAS BELIEVED in Christ for salvation, it means you cannot say that they "have not believed".

Therefore, Chuck Templeton and Simon the sorcerer are both in heaven right now.

Why? Both had believed in Christ for salvation. Therefore, neither one can be condemned.

So says the Bible.

Faith entails righteousness, right behavior, because faith means relationship/fellowship/communion with the very Source of righteousness. God can accomplish in man what man could not accomplish in himself. “Apart from Me you can do nothing” John 15:5.

And this is why, in the same passage, Jesus tells us that we must remain in Him. We can walk back away from Him, from the faith and the relationship that it establishes, by living and acting unjustly, unrighteously. By that sin we show that we no longer care. Sin is darkness, incongruous with faith, hope, and love.

d taylor · Sep 26, 2021

Take your pick on articles on the outer darkness.

Search Results for “outer darkness” – Grace Evangelical Society

renniks · Sep 26, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned

Present tense. If you once believed, but no longer do it doesn't apply.

d taylor · Sep 26, 2021

renniks said:
Present tense. If you once believed, but no longer do it doesn't apply.

Explain how a person who did at a point in their life believed in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life.

Explain how them now, not believing, negates their previous belief that gave them Eternal Life.

d taylor · Sep 26, 2021

John 4 states that taking a drink from the water Jesus offers becomes a spring to Everlasting Life.

but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

Freth · Sep 26, 2021

d taylor said:
John 4 states that taking a drink from the water Jesus offers becomes a spring to Everlasting Life.

but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

The Lord is the fountain of the living waters. The Lord can be forsaken by us, just as Israel did.

Jeremiah 17:13 O Lord, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the Lord, the fountain of living waters.

A fountain is constantly flowing water to the potential partaker. If you stop drinking, you become thirsty. The fountain is there, flowing, but it's up to you to drink to be quenched daily, even hourly.

d taylor · Sep 26, 2021

Freth said:
The Lord is the fountain of the living waters. The Lord can be forsaken, just as Israel did.

Jeremiah 17:13 O Lord, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the Lord, the fountain of living waters.

A fountain is constantly flowing water to the potential partaker. If you stop drinking, you become thirsty. The fountain is there, flowing, but it's up to you to drink to be quenched daily, even hourly.

John 4 does not state this

Freth · Sep 26, 2021

d taylor said:
John 4 does not state this

John 4:

John 4:23-24 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Worship is not a one-time thing and then you're done. It's an ongoing process in your life. What is worship, if not drinking of the fountain of living waters? (that's a rhetorical question)

Proverbs and the first angel's message; fear, worship, the Spirit and the fountain:

Proverbs 14:27 The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life, turning a person from the snares of death.

Revelation 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Is fountains of waters a double entendre also pointing to the living waters? I believe so.

These verses (above) point to worship as fearing the Lord, giving Him glory and recognizing His authority as Creator. We are to worship in the spirit and in truth. Worship is a continuous action, whereby we receive of the living waters.

Nehemiah 9:20 Thou gavest also thy good spirit to instruct them, and withheldest not thy manna from their mouth, and gavest them water for their thirst.

Isaiah 44:3 For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Doug Brents · Sep 26, 2021

d taylor said:
The outer darkness is not a clear example of hell.

God is light, and in Him there is not darkness at all. And in Heaven there will be no pain, no sorrow, and no tears.

So anywhere that there is darkness is where God is not. And anywhere there is pain and tears is not the domain of God (Heaven).

Doug Brents · Sep 26, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
Oh, excuse me sir, but trying to defend a particular teaching or doctrine from a parable doesn't count. Jesus didn't give parables to teach people. He had to explain them to His own disciples who didn't understand them. So you think you're much smarter than His personally trained disciples? Interesting.

Am I smarter? No.
But I do benefit from the fact that Jesus explained some of His parables to them to teach them (and us) how to interpret other parables.

But since you seem unable to understand or properly discern the meaning in parables, here is an unambiguous statement for you to digest.

In Rom 11:19-22 the Holy Spirit speaking through Paul said, “You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.”

Paul is speaking to Gentiles who have been grafted into the tree that is the Church. They are “in Christ”; they are saved. Yet the warning is that if they fail to continue (abide, remain) in Christ, they can and will be cut back off from the tree.

Now, does this mean that they were never in Christ to begin with? No. That would imply that God is such a bad Gardner that His grafts do not “take”.

d taylor · Sep 26, 2021

Doug Brents said:
God is light, and in Him there is not darkness at all. And in Heaven there will be no pain, no sorrow, and no tears.

So anywhere that there is darkness is where God is not. And anywhere there is pain and tears is not the domain of God (Heaven).

So God is not present at night time. What did Jesus do stay in the sun all the time. Got a verse showing there is no tears or crying in heaven.

I bet a believer who misses out on fellowship with Jesus, because of poor dicipleship on earth during their life, will be crying tears.

d taylor · Sep 26, 2021

Freth said:
John 4:

John 4:23-24 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Worship is not a one-time thing and then you're done. It's an ongoing process in your life. What is worship, if not drinking of the fountain of living waters? (that's a rhetorical question)

Proverbs and the first angel's message; fear, worship, the Spirit and the fountain:

Proverbs 14:27 The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life, turning a person from the snares of death.

Revelation 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Is fountains of waters a double entendre also pointing to the living waters? I believe so.

These verses (above) point to worship as fearing the Lord, giving Him glory and recognizing His authority as Creator. We are to worship in the spirit and in truth. Worship is a continuous action, whereby we receive of the living waters.

Nehemiah 9:20 Thou gavest also thy good spirit to instruct them, and withheldest not thy manna from their mouth, and gavest them water for their thirst.

Isaiah 44:3 For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Why are you talking about worship, when i am talking about a person receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life.

Do you not realize they are not the same.

Doug Brents · Sep 26, 2021

d taylor said:
So God is not present at night time. What did Jesus do stay in the sun all the time. Got a verse showing there is no tears or crying in heaven.

Indeed, Rev 21:4 - “And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

FreeGrace2 · Sep 26, 2021

fhansen said:
Faith entails righteousness, right behavior, because faith means relationship/fellowship/communion with the very Source of righteousness.

Review any lexicon on the Greek. It means none of this. What you are claiming is that we are saved by our lifestyle. That's what the Pharisees thought.

God can accomplish in man what man could not accomplish in himself. “Apart from Me you can do nothing” John 15:5.

Jesus was talking to SAVED disciples. He was telling them that apart from being in fellowship with Him, they could NOT produce fruit.

And this is why, in the same passage, Jesus tells us that we must remain in Him.

He sure couldn't have been talking about salvation, because He told us that He gives eternal life to believers (John 5:24 and 10:28) and those recipients shall never perish (10:28).

Instead, He was talking about fellowship. iow, the ONLY WAY to produce fruit is to be in fellowship with Him.

We can walk back away from Him, from the faith and the relationship that it establishes, by living and acting unjustly, unrighteously. By that sin we show that we no longer care. Sin is darkness, incongruous with faith, hope, and love.

So sad. No believer can leave the relationship, any more than any human child can undo their physical birth by his/her parents.

With a physical birth, the relationship between parents and child is permanent. It cannot be undone. The DNA permanetly establishes the relationship.

Spiritually the same principle holds. At our spiritual birth, being born again, the "DNA" is the Holy Spirit Himself who lives IN us. And that relationship cannot broken.

Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 26, 2021

renniks said:
Present tense. If you once believed, but no longer do it doesn't apply.

This is a common excuse to avoid the obvious issue. The present tense is being ABUSED when you make this claim.

The present tense was used by Jesus in John 5:24 about those who believe (presently) HAVE (presently) eternal life.

Then, in John 10:28 Jesus said those He gives eternal life (believers, from 5:24) they shall never perish.

I believe what Jesus said. The issue is: do you?

FreeGrace2 · Sep 26, 2021

Freth said:
The Lord is the fountain of the living waters. The Lord can be forsaken by us, just as Israel did.

Jeremiah 17:13 O Lord, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the Lord, the fountain of living waters.

A fountain is constantly flowing water to the potential partaker. If you stop drinking, you become thirsty. The fountain is there, flowing, but it's up to you to drink to be quenched daily, even hourly.

Please prayerfully consider what Jesus said in John 5:24 and 10:28. Then get back to me.

d taylor · Sep 26, 2021

Doug Brents said:
Indeed, Rev 21:4 - “And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

Revelation 21 is not about heaven, it is about the new heaven and new earth.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 26, 2021

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Oh, excuse me sir, but trying to defend a particular teaching or doctrine from a parable doesn't count. Jesus didn't give parables to teach people. He had to explain them to His own disciples who didn't understand them. So you think you're much smarter than His personally trained disciples? Interesting.

Doug Brents said:
Am I smarter? No.
But I do benefit from the fact that Jesus explained some of His parables to them to teach them (and us) how to interpret other parables.

Did He explain the parable you tried to use to defend your claims? No. Parables can be taken in many different ways, even contradicting the other ways.

To use a parable to teach a doctrine is being on very shaky ground. Only when there is an explanation by Jesus, like there is in the parable of the soils, can one use a parable to teach a doctrine.

But since you seem unable to understand or properly discern the meaning in parables, here is an unambiguous statement for you to digest.

Jesus gave parables to those who didn't want the truth. So He gave them the truth that they weren't able to understand.

ONLY when Jesus provided an explanation can we actually understand Jesus's point.

In Rom 11:19-22 the Holy Spirit speaking through Paul said, “You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.”

Paul is speaking to Gentiles who have been grafted into the tree that is the Church. They are “in Christ”; they are saved. Yet the warning is that if they fail to continue (abide, remain) in Christ, they can and will be cut back off from the tree.

I recommend you study the meaning of "cut off". It was used throughout the OT. It has nothing to do with loss of salvation, which isn't found anywhere in the Bible.

Now, does this mean that they were never in Christ to begin with? No. That would imply that God is such a bad Gardner that His grafts do not “take”.

Both John 5:24 and 10:28 refute ANY claim of loss of salvation.

Jesus said very clearly that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

I believe that totally. Why don't you?

Doug Brents · Sep 26, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
ONLY when Jesus provided an explanation can we actually understand Jesus's point.

Only those without eyes are so blinded. The Holy Spirit gives understanding to those of us in whom He dwells.

FreeGrace2 said:
I recommend you study the meaning of "cut off". It was used throughout the OT. It has nothing to do with loss of salvation, which isn't found anywhere in the Bible.

You exclude a key phrase that follows “cut off” in many places. And that phrase is “and thrown into the fire”. Those who are cut off from the tree, from Christ who is the Life, and from whom we draw life, die and are then thrown into the fire to be burned up. That is Hell, the second death, eternal separation from God.

FreeGrace2 said:
Both John 5:24 and 10:28 refute ANY claim of loss of salvation.

Jesus said very clearly that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

I believe that totally. Why don't you?

He makes it clear in other passages, of which I have only listed a few (but there are many), that we must abide with, remain in, stay faithful to, Him to receive eternal life. The fact that we received eternal life does not preclude the fact that we can lose it if we do not remain faithful. That is VERY clear from Scripture (if you take the whole, and don’t focus on a single verse or passage).

FreeGrace2 · Sep 26, 2021

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
ONLY when Jesus provided an explanation can we actually understand Jesus's point.

Doug Brents said:
Only those without eyes are so blinded.

OK, that would include Jesus' own disciples then.

The Holy Spirit gives understanding to those of us in whom He dwells.

So you presuming the Holy Spirit doesn't dwell in me?

You exclude a key phrase that follows “cut off” in many places. And that phrase is “and thrown into the fire”.

I had hoped that you had enough discernment to understand an agricultural metaphor.

To be "cut off" as the Jews of Jesus' day would have understood it, meant either physical death, which does not fit the text, or being banished from Jewish society. iow, no longer useful in the Jewish system. As very proud "chosen people" this would have been a horrible thought to any Jew.

Being thrown into the fire is simply where non-useful branches were thrown. This in no way teaching loss of salvation.

It is just so sad that you have chosen to not believe what Jesus taught in John 5:24, that those who believe HAVE eternal life, and in 10:28, that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

You simply cannot reconcile your claims with Scripture, because Scripture contradicts your claims.

Those who are cut off from the tree, from Christ who is the Life, and from whom we draw life, die and are then thrown into the fire to be burned up.

Nonsense. You are just forcing a metaphor to be literal. It was never meant to be.

That is Hell, the second death, eternal separation from God.

Yeah, I know WHAT it is, and WHERE it is. But you don't believe that those given eternal life shall never perish. In spite of what Jesus said in very clear words.

What do you think of this verse?

1 Cor 3:13 - their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.

The problem is that you default to hell when you read "fire". So explain 1 Cor 3:13 then.

He makes it clear in other passages, of which I have only listed a few (but there are many), that we must abide with, remain in, stay faithful to, Him to receive eternal life.[/quote]
YOU HAVE NOT! What you have provided doesn't say or mean what you think and claim.

In effect, all that you list as requirements to receive eternal life amounts to a works based salvation, which the Bible totally rejects.

We have (are given) eternal life on the basis of faith in Christ. John 3:15,16, 5:24, 10:28.

The fact that we received eternal life does not preclude the fact that we can lose it if we do not remain faithful.

I have been asking (begging) anyone who has claimed this to show me the verse that teaches this. And guess what; no one has.

Why is that? Because there are no such verses. Your claim amounts to a false gospel.

That is VERY clear from Scripture (if you take the whole, and don’t focus on a single verse or passage).

Then give me those "very clear Scripture".

btw, since it seems you're not into counting beyond 1, I've given plenty of verses that affirm what I believe. Unlike yourself.

O.B.N.C.

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