Zechariah the Prophet

keras said:

Ezekiel 40 to 48 has obviously not happened yet. In fact virtually all of Ezekiel and the other Bible Prophesies have never been totally fulfilled.

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The building of Ezekiel's Temple plans in chapters 40-48 most certainly WERE fulfilled. Ezra 6:14 is proof that they were.

Ezekiel's "Gog" warfare was also most certainly a literally-fulfilled one, since it was a duplicate of the Rev. 20 "Gog" prophecy, which was "AT HAND" in John's days. And we know how in Ezekiel 12:21-28 God defined prophecies that were said to be "AT HAND". They would NOT be "prolonged" into "times that are far off". God would not only "speak" those "AT HAND" prophecies, but He would also "perform" them "in your days" to whom those prophecies were first given.

I'm hardly "complacent" or "unaware" about approaching future events, and I have no problem with believers being prepared today for upcoming tumultuous times. I have even put a date on the time when this next millennium will bring about a kind of fallow, Sabbath existence over this globe, in 2033 when the sixth millennium of history transfers over to the seventh millennium of history. The road leading to this transfer point on the calendar will be rocky, to put it mildly, but at least it has nothing to do with the details of the unsealed Revelation prophecies which have already come to pass long ago.

keras said:

NOTHING in Ezekiel 40 to 48 has been fulfilled.
Proved by how the Shekinah glory of God will come into the new Temple. Ezekiel 45:1-4
This was not the case with the second Temple.

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How can you possibly say that the second Temple started by Zerubbabel did not have God's presence? What do you think the symbolism of the seven eyes in Zerubbabel's Temple foundation stone mean? Those seven eyes represented the seven spirits of God sent forth into all the earth, as in Revelation 5:6. Zechariah 4:10 said that the seven eyes in that foundation stone REJOICED to see the plummet in Zerubbabel's hand. God was present and rejoicing to see the laying of that foundation stone by Zerubbabel's hands.

God Himself purified Joshua with clean high priesthood garments and a high priest's mitre to serve as high priest in that second Temple in Zechariah 3:1-5, just as Aaron and his sons were purified to serve in the Tabernacle. And the dedication of that second Temple was performed by a purified priesthood in Ezra 6:16-22 at that year's Passover.

Even though physically that second Temple did not appear as impressive as Solomon's, yet God said that wasn't the important thing in Haggai 2. He said He would "fill this house with glory", and "the glory of this house shall be great, the latter more than for former, saith the Lord Almighty: and in this place will I give peace, saith the Lord Almighty, even peace of soul for a possession to every one that builds, to raise up this temple." (Haggai 2:10 LXX).

Also, how can it possibly be a "denigration of scripture" to recognize when its prophesies are fulfilled? Do you feel cheated because Christ fulfilled the prophecies of His crucifixion and resurrection already? Do you feel left out because you did not experience the prophesied flood in Noah's day? All fulfilled scripture should make us rejoice that God fulfills His words to the letter, even down to the very moment He predicted them to happen. This should give us increased assurance that He "will never leave us nor forsake us."

keras said:

With your belief 3R, virtually all the Bible prophesies are of no use or value to us today

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Really? "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope." (Romans 15:4).

keras said:

Obviously Haggai's prophecy has not yet been fulfilled.
The Second Temple was destroyed amid much strife and war.

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Of course it was. But not before God fulfilled that promise in Haggai 2:9 to endow that second Temple with more glory than Solomon's. Don't you remember Simeon's words as he held the newborn Jesus?
"Lord, now lettest thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all the people: A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel." (Luke 2:29-32).

What could possibly be more glorious than the presence of the promised Messiah, when first brought into that second Temple? All the golden splendor of Solomon's Temple could not compare with God's plan for mankind's salvation finally being bodily present in that second Temple. The "King of glory" in infant form. It took an old, old man and an old, old woman to immediately recognize this fulfillment.

If there actually were any scripture plans for a new physical Temple structure in our future, served by a Zadok-family high priesthood as was required for Ezekiel's Temple, God would have to change the law once again, and revoke Christ's high priesthood. That isn't going to happen, because Christ's high priesthood is after the order of Melchizedek, which is a deathless one. He will NEVER be replaced by another priesthood, because He will never die again.

If another Temple were truly in God's plans, then Christ as the foundation stone of the True Temple made of "living stones" would have to be set aside to make way for a physical temple once again, and that isn't happening either. Christ as the "chief cornerstone" was called "elect" and "precious". He was the "stone that the builders rejected", but in spite of that, God made Him "the head of the corner". That's not going to change for an inferior substitute made of natural stones.

There are many who agree with me that the current Temple Mount location is actually the site of the old Roman Antonia Fortress. There is no source of living spring water available to that Temple Mount site, as there used to be coming from the Gihon Spring channeled to serve the Mount Zion location (which is where the First and Second Temple actually were).

For my part, I get a secret sense of satisfaction from the Muslim requirement that any visitors must remove their shoes in honor of the supposed "Temple Mount" site. If that location was the Roman Antonia Fortress where Christ was flogged by the Romans before His crucifixion, then those removing their shoes before they enter the "Temple Mount" location are unknowingly giving honor to the blood of the Savior that once spattered the ground there.

Jesus currently reigns in the established New Jerusalem which is "the mother of us all", as Paul told the believers. I've been living in that New Jerusalem reality for about 50 years by now, and one day at the final resurrection, I will finally get to stand before Him face to face.

keras said:

The New Jerusalem come to the earth AFTER the Millennium. Rev 21:1

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Absolutely agreed. But there is internal proof in Revelation 20:5 that the Millennium expired and ended with the "First Resurrection", which was Christ and the "remnant" (loipoi) - of Matthew 27 saints - who "lived again" when the 1,000 years were finished. In AD 33. Christ being the "FIRSTFRUITS" resurrection, as 1 Cor. 15:20 and 23 clearly states.

Additional proof is that Satan would be "loosed" for a "little season" when that 1,000 had expired. Revelation 12:12 is John's warning that Satan was already loosed on earth at that time to torment the inhabitants of earth and sea for a "short time". He said that "the devil is come down unto you..." An unpleasant, harsh reality for John's days. That "short time" of Satan operating on earth in John's days is the same thing as his "little season" of time for being loosed in Revelation 20:3.

If the millennium was scheduled to finish at the very time these two things took place (the "First resurrection" and the beginning of the "short time" of Satan's being loosed), then we have incontrovertible evidence that the literal thousand years of the Revelation 20 millennium was over and done with in AD 33. Meaning the New Jerusalem reality was openly manifested after that, as you have said.

keras said:

Jesus is the High Priest.
But He will have other priests to do the day to day work in the Temple, as prophesied; Revelation 5:10, Isaiah 66:21

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Believers need no other intermediary between us and God than Jesus our High Priest. "For there is one God, and ONE mediator between God and men; the Man Christ Jesus."

We don't need to wait for any possible future temple with another representative priesthood for this to be a reality. Since the establishment of the New Covenant in Jesus's blood, ALL believers become priests with freedom of access to the Father through our deathless High Priest Jesus Christ. That's why the curtain to the first section of the Temple was torn from top to bottom at Christ's crucifixion. From then on, no more separation of a compartment that only certain Levitical priests could access.

3 Resurrections said:

Absolutely agreed. But there is internal proof in Revelation 20:5 that the Millennium expired and ended with the "First Resurrection", which was Christ and the "remnant" (loipoi) - of Matthew 27 saints - who "lived again" when the 1,000 years were finished. In AD 33. Christ being the "FIRSTFRUITS" resurrection, as 1 Cor. 15:20 and 23 clearly states.

Additional proof is that Satan would be "loosed" for a "little season" when that 1,000 had expired. Revelation 12:12 is John's warning that Satan was already loosed on earth at that time to torment the inhabitants of earth and sea for a "short time". He said that "the devil is come down unto you..." An unpleasant, harsh reality for John's days. That "short time" of Satan operating on earth in John's days is the same thing as his "little season" of time for being loosed in Revelation 20:3.

If the millennium was scheduled to finish at the very time these two things took place (the "First resurrection" and the beginning of the "short time" of Satan's being loosed), then we have incontrovertible evidence that the literal thousand years of the Revelation 20 millennium was over and done with in AD 33. Meaning the New Jerusalem reality was openly manifested after that, as you have said.

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In this post I see where you indicate that the millennium has expired, and that we are then in satan's little season. What I'm not seeing in this post is where you indicate that the millennium begins. Or maybe you did since you did say literal millennium having applied AD 33 to that? Which might mean simply subtract 1000 years from that date to get to the beginning of the millennium? Assuming that might be the case, what exactly was significant about 1000 years prior to AD 33?

DavidPT said:

In this post I see where you indicate that the millennium has expired, and that we are then in satan's little season.

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That bolded part above was not quite my point. My point was that the believers in JOHN'S DAYS were THEN experiencing Satan's "little season" of wrathful oppression. You know, the whole "Satan walking about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour" kind of thing, that was taking place in THOSE days back then for only a "short time" and a "little season".

DavidPT said:

What I'm not seeing in this post is where you indicate that the millennium begins. Or maybe you did since you did say literal millennium having applied AD 33 to that? Which might mean simply subtract 1000 years from that date to get to the beginning of the millennium?

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Exactly. All we have to do is simply subtract the literal thousand years from the AD 33 date to get to the beginning of the Revelation 20 millennium. That date would be the 968/967 BC, which was the year that the foundation stone of Solomon's temple was laid down. There is proof for this year's date in historical records, if needed. Foundation stones being laid down are red-letter dates in scripture, with the month, day, and year heavily highlighted for a particular purpose.

DavidPT said:

Assuming that might be the case, what exactly was significant about 1000 years prior to AD 33?

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In a nutshell, the Rev. 20 millennium comprised the literal thousand years of a physical temple worship system of natural stones. That physical temple system was intended to foreshadow the coming True Temple not made of hands, but one that was made of believers as "living stones", with Christ as the True Temple's "chief cornerstone". Christ as the "elect", "precious" cornerstone foundation of the Spiritual Temple was laid down at His resurrection-day ascension, when God consecrated Him as our ultimate High Priest in heaven that morning. God that morning set Christ as a King upon His holy hill of Zion, even though the kings of the earth and its rulers had conspired against God and His anointed Son, intending to cast away their bonds from them. God only laughed derisively at their futile efforts to disrupt His ultimate plan.

Satan's deception of the nations was bound during that literal thousand years by the surge in the prophetic ministry of the prophets, both major and minor. Also by the fame of Solomon's kingdom, which brought the knowledge of the God of Israel to the nations of the world. Even the Queen of Sheba acknowledged this by her visit to Solomon. Even when the nation of Israel went into captivity for their disobedience, that only further spread the knowledge of the God of Israel among all the nations where they were driven. King Darius and King Nebuchadnezzar during this time both made decrees magnifying the God of heaven to their entire realm. We have scripture references pointing to Solomon initiating those millennium conditions, if references are needed.

This widespread knowledge of the God of Israel did not necessarily entail a salvific result for all, but it did remove the excuse of ignorance during that millennium period. The nations may have still continued to act in a sinful manner, but they at least could not use deceived ignorance as an excuse. And simply having Satan's deception chained during those thousand years did NOT remove humanity's own ability to deceive itself during that millennium period.

3 Resurrections said:

Exactly. All we have to do is simply subtract the literal thousand years from the AD 33 date to get to the beginning of the Revelation 20 millennium. That date would be the 987/986 BC, which was the year that the foundation stone of Solomon's temple was laid down. There is proof for this year's date in historical records, if needed. Foundation stones being laid down are red-letter dates in scripture, with the month, day, and year heavily highlighted for a particular purpose.

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When it comes to arguments in general, and maybe you might disagree, oftentimes all it takes is only one argument in order to destroy numerous arguments.

Here is what the text in Revelation 20:4 plainly states---and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. What you need to do now is to convincingly show how anyone could already be living and reigning with Christ before He is even born. If you have the beginning of the millennium beginning almost a thousand years before Christ is even born, you have Revelation 20:4 meaning that some have been living and reigning with someone for at least 970 years prior to them being born first, when it is far more reasonable to assume that they don't begin living and reigning with Him until after He is at least born first.

keras said:

Simple addition of the years of the Jewish kings, from the known date of the Babylonian conquest - 586 BC, gives the date that Solomon started to build the Temple as: 1013 BC.
So you are wrong and your preterist idea of the Millennium having already passed, is wrong too.

I would be grateful if you would start your own thread on when the Millennium is and cease from derailing my thread on the Prophet Zechariah.

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Absolutely. Can do.