Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

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Hillsage

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I didn’t come to Christ until I was 38 years old and my incentive wasn’t love or fear it was sadness and loneliness. I was struggling in life very hard and I decided that the only way to get help from God was to turn to Him. I didn’t deserve His help because I was living my life my way not His way. After I came to Him, He changed both me and my life and I praise His Holy name for it.
I came when the Spirit convicted me, just like scripture says is supposed to happen.

JOH 16:8 And when he comes, he will convince the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:

I was at the top of my 'small Kansas town' world. I had the envy of all my friends the night I got born again. Unlike you, I wasn't struggling at all. I had the money, Californian wardrobe, 57 Chevy, motorcycle and more 'one night' stands than anyone else. But before achieving that envious place in our little city of 20,000, I served the devil. Grand theft, international smuggling, rape 2x, adultery 2x, gonorrhea 2x, prostitution, drug dealing....blah blah blah. For 10 years my testimony included "I'd still be in prison IF I had been caught for half of what I did."

When I received the 'faith' to believe, my incentive wasn't "fear" either. I got a girlfriend pregnant at 19 and was married in the ROMAN Catholic church which I was born and raised into. We were divorced in 4 months. Well, the church's stance then, and now; was you can't ever take communion again or get married again unless that first wife dies (or you get an annulment, which she did to marry another RC). I was 19 divorced and a baby on the way (1st of 2 out of wedlock).

Thanks to 'religion', I also felt like I had committed some unforgivable sin, given the RC church's laws. So I made the conscious decision to give God the finger and tell him if this is what He was all about then he could screw himself and I'd go to HELL with all my friends. And with that decision, I was going to make sure I had a front row seat. 4 years later, He came after me. I was a lost sheep and HE FOUND ME. I can't relate to all your testimonies where you found the shepherd with your imaginary free wills. My will was taken captive by the devil, just like scripture says.
 
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Ceallaigh

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It's the same reaction that I have to any of Satan's lies.

Would you say the Church fathers in the list below all subscribed to a Satanic lie?

"The main Patristic supporters of the apokatastasis theory, such as Bardaisan, Clement, Origin, Didymus, St. Anthony, St. Pamphilus Martyr, Methodius, St. Macrina, St. Gregory of Nyssa (and probably the two other Cappadocians), St. Evagrius Ponticus, Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, St. John of Jerusalem, Rufinus, St. Jerome and St. Augustine (at least initially) … Cassian, St. Issac of Nineveh, St. John of Dalyatha, Ps. Dionysius the Areopagite, probably St. Maximus the Confessor, up to John the Scot Eriugena, and many others, grounded their Christian doctrine of apokatastasis first of all in the Bible."
— Ilaria Ramelli, Christian Doctrine, 11.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I came when the Spirit convicted me, just like scripture says is supposed to happen.

JOH 16:8 And when he comes, he will convince the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:

I was at the top of my 'small Kansas town' world. I had the envy of all my friends the night I got born again. Unlike you, I wasn't struggling at all. I had the money, Californian wardrobe, 57 Chevy, motorcycle and more 'one night' stands than anyone else. But before achieving that envious place in our little city of 20,000, I served the devil. Grand theft, international smuggling, rape 2x, adultery 2x, gonorrhea 2x, prostitution, drug dealing....blah blah blah. For 10 years my testimony included "I'd still be in prison IF I had been caught for half of what I did."

When I received the 'faith' to believe, my incentive wasn't "fear" either. I got a girlfriend pregnant at 19 and was married in the ROMAN Catholic church which I was born and raised into. We were divorced in 4 months. Well, the church's stance then, and now; was you can't ever take communion again or get married again unless that first wife dies (or you get an annulment, which she did to marry another RC). I was 19 divorced and a baby on the way (1st of 2 out of wedlock).

Thanks to 'religion', I also felt like I had committed some unforgivable sin, given the RC church's laws. So I made the conscious decision to give God the finger and tell him if this is what He was all about then he could screw himself and I'd go to HELL with all my friends. And with that decision, I was going to make sure I had a front row seat. 4 years later, He came after me. I was a lost sheep and HE FOUND ME. I can't relate to all your testimonies where you found the shepherd with your imaginary free wills. My will was taken captive by the devil, just like scripture says.

free will isn’t imaginary, it’s biblical. In my case I feel that God had backed me into a corner where the only way out was thru Him. Even tho He was calling me I still had to cooperate in order to be saved.
 
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Hmm

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:amen::amen:and again I say:amen:

Share a little of your testimony for me Hmm. You've appeared since I left, because COVID has increased 'actual Christian ministry time for me'.

Also share; when did you first become aware of the plan of God for the ultimate reconciliation of ALL?

@Cormack is to blame for starting this thread which I'm glad to see is now back at the top of the charts:
Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

I've been a Christian for a while but never took ECT seriously, apart from it's impact on keeping newly interested people from the faith. This thread was a good introduction to Christian universalism and inspired me to read further. Probably the thing that clinched it for me was the mistranslation in most English Bibles of the Greek phrase "aionios kolasis" to "eternal punishment" instead of something like "corrective punishment lasting an age", something that every serious scholar/ theologian I've ever read acknowledges. This made me read all the 'hell and damnation' passages in a new light and I was impressed by the authors I read, for example, Thomas Talbott, Keith deRose and Robin Parry. And of course the guys with the really frighteningly big brains such as Ilaria Ramelli and David Bentley Hart.

I intuited that ECT was wrong but once I read these guys I understood why it was wrong. I'm encouraged that Christian universalism has been on the increase over the last 20 years as measured by books sold, YouTube videos watched etc (there aren't enough or any churches to do an actual count). I guess this coincides with people's Internet access because other not many would be exposed to the ideas. Reading others' testimonies was useful and also strongly indicates that there are a lot of clergy and academics who are closet universalists but afraid to 'come out' for fear of losing their reputation or job.

How about you? What led you to the universalist light?
 
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Clare73

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Lazarus is Greek for Eliezer. Eliezer of Damascus was set to inherit everything Abraham owned while childless. Just something to chew on.
So Lazarus was set to be in Abraham's bosom. . .and he was.
 
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Clare73

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We can’t view God’s decisions based on the decisions we would make.
Precisely. . .see Isaiah 55:8-9.
Would you kill someone just for touching your car? God killed a man for touching the Ark because he thought it was going to fall over and he tried to stop it. Would you throw someone into a lake of fire because they rejected you even just temporarily? God will. We can’t make assumptions as to what God will do that specifically contradict what He said He will do.
 
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Lazarus Short

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So Lazarus was set to be in Abraham's bosom. . .and he was.

Besides that, be aware that Eliezer of Damascus joyfully brought a wife back for Isaac, knowing that by doing so, he was disinheriting himself.
 
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Clare73

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I came when the Spirit convicted me, just like scripture says is supposed to happen.

JOH 16:8 And when he comes, he will convince the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:

I was at the top of my 'small Kansas town' world. I had the envy of all my friends the night I got born again. Unlike you, I wasn't struggling at all. I had the money, Californian wardrobe, 57 Chevy, motorcycle and more 'one night' stands than anyone else. But before achieving that envious place in our little city of 20,000, I served the devil. Grand theft, international smuggling, rape 2x, adultery 2x, gonorrhea 2x, prostitution, drug dealing....blah blah blah. For 10 years my testimony included "I'd still be in prison IF I had been caught for half of what I did."

When I received the 'faith' to believe, my incentive wasn't "fear" either. I got a girlfriend pregnant at 19 and was married in the ROMAN Catholic church which I was born and raised into. We were divorced in 4 months. Well, the church's stance then, and now; was you can't ever take communion again or get married again unless that first wife dies (or you get an annulment, which she did to marry another RC). I was 19 divorced and a baby on the way (1st of 2 out of wedlock).

Thanks to 'religion', I also felt like I had committed some unforgivable sin, given the RC church's laws. So I made the conscious decision to give God the finger and tell him if this is what He was all about then he could screw himself and I'd go to HELL with all my friends. And with that decision, I was going to make sure I had a front row seat. 4 years later, He came after me. I was a lost sheep and HE FOUND ME. I can't relate to all your testimonies where you found the shepherd with your imaginary free wills. My will was taken captive by the devil, just like scripture says.
Now that's the gospel!
 
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Lazarus Short

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So Lazarus was set to be in Abraham's bosom. . .and he was.

Besides that, be aware that Eliezer of Damascus joyfully brought a wife back for Isaac, knowing that by doing so, he was disinheriting himself.
 
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Clare73

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@Cormack is to blame for starting this thread which I'm glad to see is now back at the top of the charts:
Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

I've been a Christian for a while but never took ECT seriously, apart from it's impact on keeping newly interested people from the faith. This thread was a good introduction to Christian universalism and inspired me to read further. Probably the thing that clinched it for me was the mistranslation in most English Bibles of the Greek phrase "aionios kolasis" to "eternal punishment" instead of something like "corrective punishment lasting an age", something that every serious scholar/ theologian I've ever read acknowledges. This made me read all the 'hell and damnation' passages in a new light and I was impressed by the authors I read, for example, Thomas Talbott, Keith deRose and Robin Parry. And of course the guys with the really frighteningly big brains such as Ilaria Ramelli and David Bentley Hart.

I intuited that ECT was wrong but once I read these guys I understood why it was wrong. I'm encouraged that Christian universalism has been on the increase over the last 20 years as measured by books sold, YouTube videos watched etc (there aren't enough or any churches to do an actual count). I guess this coincides with people's Internet access because other not many would be exposed to the ideas. Reading others' testimonies was useful and also strongly indicates that there are a lot of clergy and academics who are closet universalists but afraid to 'come out' for fear of losing their reputation or job.


How about you? What led you to the universalist light?
the thing that clinched it for me was the mistranslation in most English Bibles of the Greek phrase "aionios kolasis" to "eternal punishment" (Matthew 25:46) instead of something like "corrective punishment lasting an age",
And the reason that charge has no hooks for my eyes (clothing fastener: hook and eye) is because

1) "age lasting" (
aionios) is used throughout the NT of things that are without end, enending; e.g.,
God's eternal (aionios) power, eternal glory, eternal Holy Spirit, eternal redemption, eternal life, immortal (eternal) resurrection body. . .
So there is no reason to question its meaning in "eternal punishment" and "eternal life" of Matthew 25:46.

2) "punishment" (kolasis) is used in only one other place in the NT, and it means to curtail, prune, dock.
So how is it used in the only other verse where it appears?

In 1 John 4:18, "Fear has punishment (torment--kolasis) [or: "Fear is punishing--kolasis]
and he who fears is not perfect in love."

The punishment there is that sense of sin which induces a slavish fear, which
is a docking, curtailing, pruning of perfect love.
Fear docks, curtails, restrains (kolasis--punishes) the enjoyment of love.

So in Matthew 25:46, "eternal punishment" would be an unending (eternal) restraining or curtailing; i.e., an unending imprisonment (as in 1 Peter 3:19; 2 Peter 2:4, 2 Peter 2:9; Jude 6),
and we see the nature of that imprisonment in the multitude of Scriptures where Jesus presents unending punishment in Gehenna (Mark 9:43, 45, 47-48; Matthew 5:22, 12:31, 13:30, 18:8-9, 25:41, 46; Luke 16:24).

There is no mistranslation of Matthew 25:46.

Nor does your translation pass muster.
 
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Hmm

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And the reason that has no hooks for my eyes (clothing fastener: hook and eye) is because

1) "age lasting" (
aionios), "eternal" is used throughout the NT of things that are without end, enending; e.g.,
God's eternal (aionios) power, eternal glory, eternal Holy Spirit, eternal redemption, eternal life, immortal (eternal) resurrection body. . .it means "eternal" in "eternal punishment" and "eternal life" of Matthew 25:46.

It's a complex word and it has been subject to a lot of academic attention. It's been discussed a lot on the universalist-type threads here but with no consensus so rather than rehash the arguments, I'll just say that I don't agree with your analysis or, rather because I'm not an ancient Greek expert, the majority of scholars don't agree with your analysis.
 
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Clare73

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Besides that, be aware that Eliezer of Damascus joyfully brought a wife back for Isaac, knowing that by doing so, he was disinheriting himself.
So the Lazarus of Luke 13 is not about Abraham's servant, it's just about a Hebrew.
 
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Clare73

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It's a complex word
Only if you are trying to shoehorn it into meaning something it doesn't. . .
And we think 2,000 years later we know more about what they meant than they did?

Take the word "gay."
In 2000 years when they're trying to figure out our lingo in "The whole group was lively, merry, social, pleasing to be with. They performed every week, We went there often with our friends because it was such fun. One of my favorites was John, on saxophone. He was such a gay fellow. All the guys liked him."
So, is John homosexual, or just merry?
Your answer comes from the general context; i.e., John was merry.

And the meaning of "eternal" comes from the general context of the NT, where it means undending,
as kolasis/ means curtailing, restraining; as in imprisonment, in the LoF, eternal imprisonment, which is in perfect accord with the general context of the NT regarding Gehenna.
 
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Hmm

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"Majority"?. . .are you sure about that?

Yes.

Let me just give you my best explanation of aionosis and then I'll have to leave it there because I'm suffering from aionosis battle fatigue (even though I won)

This is from Thomas Talbott:

"I think it fair to say that on no occasion of its use in the New Testament does aiõnios carry any implication of unending temporal duration. On three occasions (see Rom 16:25; 2 Tim 1:19; Titus 1:2), this term does combine with the concept of time in such a way as to imply temporal duration; but on each of these occassions, which are clearly exceptional, the context excludes the idea of unending temporal duration. Given its more normal use in the New Testament, where aiõnios refers either to Bid himself or to the possessions, gifts, or actions of God, it appears to have a special religious meaning that has nothing to do with the duration of temporal events."

So aiõnios can mean eternal but only when applied to God. So, for example, external punishment is simply punishment of any duration that has its causal source in the eternal purposes of God. We see this where the fire that consumed Sodom and Gomorrah is described as "eternal fire" in the letter of Jude. This fire's not still burning is it? Eternal here is a reference to God, meaning that it was a form of divine judgement and it's causal source was God himself. Similarly for eternal hell fire and eternal punishment and the like.
 
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Clare73

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Let me just give you my best explanation of aionosis and then I'll have to leave it there because I'm suffering from aionosis battle fatigue (even though I won)
This is from Thomas Talbott:
"I think it fair to say that on no occasion of its use in the New Testament does aiõnios carry any implication of unending temporal duration.
Well, there's our problem. . ."unending" and" temporal" are contradictory terms.

"Temporal" (time) has an ending; i.e., the end of time.
"Unending" (eternity) for us begins at the end of temporal (time).

Of couse the NT does not use aionios to mean unending termporal.
It's an absurdity.
On three occasions (see Rom 16:25; 2 Tim 1:19; Titus 1:2), this term does combine with the concept of time in such a way as to imply temporal duration; but on each of these occassions, which are clearly exceptional, the context excludes the idea of unending temporal duration. Given its more normal use in the New Testament, where aiõnios refers either to Bid himself or to the possessions, gifts, or actions of God, it appears to have a special religious meaning that has nothing to do with the duration of temporal events."

So aiõnios can mean eternal but only when applied to God. So, for example, external punishment is simply punishment of any duration that has its causal source in the eternal purposes of God. We see this where the fire that consumed Sodom and Gomorrah is described as "eternal fire" in the letter of Jude. This fire's not still burning is it? Eternal here is a reference to God, meaning that it was a form of divine judgement and it's causal source was God himself. Similarly for eternal hell fire and eternal punishment and the like.
 
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Hillsage

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free will isn’t imaginary, it’s biblical. In my case I feel that God had backed me into a corner where the only way out was thru Him. Even tho He was calling me I still had to cooperate in order to be saved.
All you just gave me was your opinion to counter my opinion. Show me your biblical support for YOUR OPINION.

Here's part of my study on the subject years ago. Sorry it's so long, but I've actually shortened it a lot to post here. I'm not dumb enough to think most here can read much before their minds glaze over.

But I believe myself to be pretty thorough in my search for truth. Trying more to be led by the Spirit for 'spiritual truth' than the fundaMENTAL scholars for church doctrines.

FREE WILL and SOVERIGNTY

I typed up a screensaver banner one time that said; "God reigns through those who obey, and He rules over those who disobey." I don't limit those words to just believers. I think that the concept of 'Free Will' sounds good because we 'think' we have it. But I don't see 'total free will' in scripture.

"What God requires of us he himself works in us, or it is not done. He that commands faith, holiness, and love, creates them by the power of his grace..." - Matthew Henry

You think you were born again of your free will. I only need to yield to this FIRST scripture alone, to disprove you. I give God the glory for the 'born from above' rebirth of my spirit into the family of God on earth.

JOH 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, not of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

JOH 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

PHI 2:13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

ACT 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

1Pe 2:8
They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do. Acts 4.27-28
"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur."

Luke 22:22
For the Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom he is betrayed!"

ROM 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Romans 9:20-21
But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

Deut. 2:30
"But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today."

2 Thes 2.11
For this reason God sends them a strong delusion so that they will believe what is false.

Isa 44:18
They know not, nor do they discern, for he has shut their eyes, so that they cannot see, and their hearts, so that they cannot understand.

Isa 19:2
And I will stir up Egyptians against Egyptians, and they will fight, each against another and each against his neighbor, city against city, kingdom against kingdom;

Isa 63:17
O LORD, why do you make us wander from your ways and harden our heart, so that we fear you not? Return for the sake of your servants, the tribes of your heritage.

Job 2:10
But he said to her, "You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?" In all this Job did not sin with his lips. ["Evil" in this verse refers to natural calamity and moral evil: Job 1:12-19].

Psa 105:25
He turned their hearts to hate his people, to deal craftily with his servants.

1Ki 22:23
Now therefore behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the LORD has declared disaster for you."

Gen 50:20
As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

Rev 17:17
For God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.

Prov. 16:4
The LORD has prepared everything for His purpose—
even the wicked for the day of disaster.


2 Thes. 3:5
May the Lord direct your hearts to God's love and Christ's endurance.

Deut. 29:4
"Yet to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear."

Prov. 16:9
A man's heart plans his way,
but the LORD determines his steps.
 
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