Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

LoveGodsWord said:

only your words denying the scriptures shared with you claiming unorthodox heresy making an appeal to orthodoxy without scripture claiming because the majority do not believe therefore it cannot be true. This is what the religious leaders of the day did to Jesus and the Apostles rejecting Gods' Word and putting them to death to seek to silence the Word of God.

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This is like the pot calling the kettle black .

You teach many heresies: Saturday worship, soul sleep, soul annihilation, and a certain version of Millennialism, among many others. You teach these heresies as facts.

Generally, UR believers only mention their theory as a possibility.

I notice in this thread, disagreements becoming accusations of un-orthodoxy, heresy and even blasphemy.

Put it away, people. Don't you think it bit absurd to assume and declare that your opponent is going to "hell" because he denies the existence of it? Your opponent might have good reason to think so.

Christianity has been trying to bring the whole world to salvation/God's side for almost 2000 years. It has saved many, but not all. God must have seen it, and don't you think He might just have made a provision for it? Don't you suppose He has a better Plan than you can imagine? Of course He does!

Given the overall goal of Christianity, I think it quite strange that any Christian would look askance at UR, when they should welcome it with (at least) tentative hope. Why should you look forward to your own salvation...while smugly picturing in your mind the lost and wicked being relegated to eternal fire?

Is "hell" an idol? I think it is at least a spiritual stronghold. Put it away, people.

First, my apologies to everyone for this inexcusable wandering off topic. Right, got that part out of the way.

Hmm said:

Coming from Tennessee, it's amazing that you would even have heard of a Championship team, let alone support one. Which team is it and why did you choose it?

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1970s, soldiers from the Parachute Regiment were training with the US 101st Airborne near Nashville. The 101st asked for local families to entertain the viisiting troops on weekends. My dad signed up because he'd been in the 8th Air Force in England (North Pickenham, Norfolk) and had returned home a shameless Anglophile.

The Para guys who stayed with us weren't much older than I was, and I ended up bringing a couple of them down to Nashville on a few occasions to have a beer or two. One of them was from London, and was a Millwall fan. He persuaded me that Millwall were the best team in the world, and that anyone who supported any other club was best described by a number of colorful slang expressions that i won't use here. That was the entirety of my knowledge of football.

Many years later the Anglophilia I'd inherited from my dad asserted itself, and I got interested in English sports. That's when I discovered EFL football, and the one team I knew anything about at all was Millwall. So there I am, a Southern-accented half-Korean old gaffer from Tennessee who is, against all reason, a Millwall supporter. Come on you Lions! (The fact that I'm also probably the only card-carrying member of the Barmy Army in Middle Tennessee as well is, I think, best left unexamined.)

MMXX said:

I'd say regarding 1 Corinthians 6:9, it would be pointed that everyone starts out as a sinner. Which would go with 1 Corinthians 15:22. As I understand it, universalism is saying just as Christians came to Christ and were forgiven through Christ in this world/age, everyone else will come to Christ and be forgiven through Christ in the world/age to come. But literally "there will be hell to pay" first.

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As for 2 Corinthians 5:10, that's regarded by pretty much everyone as pertaining to Christians. Christians will stand before the Judgement Seat of Christ also written about in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, which is different from the White Throne Judgement talked about in Revelation 20:12.

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Only according to some erroneous interpretations of prophetic riddles (Numbers 12:8),
which interpretations are in contradiction of authoritative NT teaching.

"The Day" of 1 Corinthians 3:13 is the final judgment of the "last day" of John 6:39-40, 44, 54; 1 Corinthians 5:5, 1:8; Philippians 1:6, 10, 2:16; 1 Thessalonians 5:2-6, which is the final judgment of Revelation 20:12-15.

LoveGodsWord said:

Universalism makes a mockery of the death of God's dear son.

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Rhetorical Scenery Chewing, 10 yard penalty and loss of down. Christian Universalism assumes that our Lord's Sacrifice actually saves everyone, that His Grace actually is irresistable, and that God's Will is going to be done , and nothing anyone can do has any power to stop it.

We know that "God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Scripture says that God's Will is that all be saved. Your lot says it ain't gonna happen. "Poor God, nothing He can do."

Scripture says that our Lord Christ gave Himself as a ransom for all. You believe that it just didn't do a lot of folks any good, and that they're damned anyway. "Poor Jesus, He died for all but only saved some.

A fig for your doctrine.

Hmm said:

I think the main reason people reject Christianity is because of the way it's been presented to them - that it's anti-science, God tortures people forever etc.

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The only reason anyone rejects Christianity is because they are not born of the Holy Spirit (John 3:3; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Romans 8:7-8).

This is not rejecting God though, in fact it's making a stand for the loving and rational God that Christianity should have taught them about.
I think it's a parable

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So do I. . .assigning a name is to make clear the beggar was not a Gentile, but one of them, for the parable is about the Jews refusing to listen to Moses and the Prophets regarding Jesus, and that even his resurrection from the dead would not change their minds, as it did not... they continued to persecute and kill Christians, as in Paul.

but whether it is or not the meaning of the story is that God wants us to be generous with our wealth and to help those less fortunate than ourselves. It's funny how that is often overlooked in the rich west and the story is turned into being evidence for ECT.

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Jipsah said:

Rhetorical Scenery Chewing, 10 yard penalty and loss of down. Christian Universalism assumes that our Lord's Sacrifice actually saves everyone, that His Grace actually is irresistable, and that God's Will is going to be done , and nothing anyone can do has any power to stop it.

We know that "God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Scripture says that God's Will is that all be saved. Your lot says it ain't gonna happen. "Poor God, nothing He can do."

Scripture says that our Lord Christ gave Himself as a ransom for all. You believe that it just didn't do a lot of folks any good, and that they're damned anyway. "Poor Jesus, He died for all but only saved some.

A fig for your doctrine.

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I see an underlying assumption on the part of many that man's will or their own will overrides God's Will. Apologists assert that God will not override our puny wills, but that just pegs my MBE detector...

LoveGodsWord said:

You missed the point. If Universalism is true Jesus did not have to die.

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Really? What about sin, did that cease to exist?

Your lot believe that Christ's sacrifice wasn't enough to save everyone. I say it was.

Yet we know the scriptures teach us that Gods' salvation is conditional on believing

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So ultimately everyone will believe. "Every knee shall bow", right?

and following what Gods' Word says.

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And they will, with shouts of thanksgiving.

God is a God of love, mercy, justice and judgement

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But alas, those qualities are limited by what corrupt humans allow Him to do. Nonsense!

and as the scriptures teach showing mercy to thousands of them that love Him, and keep His commandments (Exodus 20:6; John 14:15).

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More thousands than you'd admit if God wasn't compelled to observe the restrictions your doctrine tries to place on Him. Fortunately, He isn't.

Universalism teaches love and mercy without justice and judgement.

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Denominational doctrine, summarily rejected.

Yet it is this same justice and judgement that shows the love of God in sending Jesus to die the death that we all deserve to die.

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And if you stopped right there you'd have the rights of it, but that wouldn't conform to your sectarian beliefs. Here you go...

so that those who believe and follow God's Word can be reconciled to God.

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Thereby taking the power away from God and giving it to corrupt human beings. Nonsense!

Universalism therefore makes a mockery of the death of God's dear son and sin and counts the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing despite to the Spirit of God's grace

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Hogwash, however oft repeated. God's Will will be done, and no one, human or devil, can prevent it. Christ's sacrifice will save all, no matter how much contrived doctrines of men, designed to make it seem as though we have power to thwart God's Will or Christ's Sacrifice, deny it. The "God can't..." idea is straight from the pit.

According to the scriptures Gods' mercy and love and forgiveness are all conditional on us

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"Poor God, He did so want to save everyone, but the beings He created stopped Him. Nothing He could do, even giving His life on the Cross wasn't sufficient to save them all." Nonsense!

This is a false teaching that has it's origin in the Garden of Eden

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And there's one that comes from Man's desire to be in control, and to Save Himself. It's the belief that "God Cannot", that He can only do what we allow Him to do. God wants to save everyone, but We Stop Him. Christ's sacrifice saved everyone, but We Refuse It. We have the power, we can thwart God's will, we're in charge. If there has ever been a diaboliocal doctrine, that has to be near the top of the list.

Hmm said:

God's wrath isn't separate from his love though. I think of it like a human father who has told his child not to run into the road, the child runs, the father is angry in snatching hold of the child and pulling him/her back and the quick angry reaction was an act of love.

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Hopefully not stretching the analogy too far, but if a father sees his elder son take his younger son’s toy for the umpteen time he gets angry and takes the older son aside and tells him about the consequences if he continues to do this which may include a punishment that fits the crime. The punishment has to be proportionate though - it wouldn't be very loving if the father tormented his son for the rest of his life.

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Or is God's punishment of "hell" a revelation of the proportion of the crime in rejecting and disobeying (thumbing your nose at) the Divine Sovereign?
I say it is. . .

LoveGodsWord said:

Twisting scripture out of context does not make a false teaching true.

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That's something SDAs should be wary of asserting. Just sayin'

LoveGodsWord said:

No need for repetition.

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It was meaningless the first time around.

Hmm said:

Edited. This is a reply to @LoveGodsWord.

No-one is disagreeing with you here when you say things like the truth is God's Word as you do in that post. The problem is is when you then go on to identify this truth with your own, limited understanding of it. And everyone's understanding is limited, so I'm not being personal. No-one can apprehend the truth directly, we can only approach it indirectly by means of interpretation and that is, by definition, not identical with the truth. It may be the exact opposite even.

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Hmm said:

I think the more immediate concern is to realise that they need to be read in conjunction with the rest of the Bible, such as this verse, and that we have humility:

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1 Corinthians 13:12​

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We see our eternal future in a glass darkly, not what God has plainly revealed to us in his word now.

Clare73 said:

Only according to some erroneous interpretations of prophetic riddles (Numbers 12:8),
which interpretations are in contradiction of authoritative NT teaching.

"The Day" of 1 Corinthians 3:13 is the final judgment of the "last day" of John 6:39-40, 44, 54; 1 Corinthians 5:5, 1:8; Philippians 1:6, 10, 2:16; 1 Thessalonians 5:2-6, which is the final judgment of Revelation 20:12-15.

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I accept as an axiom that the Bible interprets itself. Now as to the Revelation 20:15, we see that some are cast into the Lake of Fire. Now if you are thinking they suffer eternal torment in the fire there, there is a better way to look at it. All through the Bible, God has depicted Himself as a Refining Fire and sometimes as Soap, for the purpose of refining the base ore of mankind into the silver and gold He desires in us. According to this well-established principle (IF you have searched it out), the LoF is for a final refining. God will have His silver and gold. See this excerpt from my book chapter "Godfire":

GOD AS A REFINER



Isaiah 48:9-11
For My Name’s sake I defer My anger, for My praise I will restrain it for you -
otherwise I would cut you off.
Behold, I have refined you, though not as silver.
I tested you in the furnace of affliction.
For My own sake, for My own sake, I act.
For how should I be profaned? I will not give My glory to another.

Zechariah 13:7-9
...Strike the shepherd and the sheep will be scattered!
I will turn My hand against the little ones.
Then it will happen - it is a declaration of Adonai - that in the entire land
two-thirds will be cut off and die, but a third will be left in it.
This third I will bring through the fire. I will refine them as silver is refined,
and will test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My Name and I will answer them.
I will say, ‘They are My people,’ and they will answer, ‘Adonai is my God.’



Malachi 3:1-3



Behold, I am sending My messenger and he will clear the way before Me.
Suddenly He will come to His Temple - the Lord whom you seek -
and the Messenger of the covenant - the One whom you desire -
behold, He is coming,” says Adonai-Tzva’ot.
But who can endure the day of His coming? Or who can stand when He appears?
For He will be like a refiner’s fire, and like soap for cleaning raw wool.
And He will sit as a smelter or a purifier of silver, and He will cleanse the sons of Levi, and purify them like gold or silver.
Then they will become for Adonai those who present an offering in righteousness.




[The above is from the Tree of Life Version of the Bible.]




We see from these quotes that God will refine a portion or remnant of His people, especially the sons or descendants of Levi. Further, if God is a refiner, and His fire is a refiner’s fire, what else can we say of His Lake of Fire, except that it is for refining? It must be so, for God does not act contrary to His stated purposes, and is not a God of confusion.




We see this theme again on the Day of Pentecost. When the disciples were all gathered together, the Spirit of God came upon them as a wind (same word as Spirit) and there were manifestations on them, which the writer of Acts likened to fire. The disciples were thus refined.

LoveGodsWord said:

Because for me only Gods' Word is true

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Once filtered though SDA dogma, of course.

LoveGodsWord said:

If Universalism was true there was no need for Christ to die.

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That's still nonsense.

Universalism makes a mockery of the death of God's dear son and counts the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing despite to the Spirit of God's grace

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More nonsense.

Lazarus Short said:

I accept as an axiom that the Bible interprets itself. Now as to the Revelation 20:15, we see that some are cast into the Lake of Fire. Now if you are thinking they suffer eternal torment in the fire there, there is a better way to look at it. All through the Bible, God has depicted Himself as a Refining Fire and sometimes as Soap, for the purpose of refining the base ore of mankind into the silver and gold He desires in us. According to this well-established principle (IF you have searched it out), the LoF is for a final refining.

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You haven't been keeping up. Post #222 follows:

Salted with the fire of refining is dealing radically with our sin (cut it off, pluck it out) so that we won't end up in the LoF, making the LoF not the fire of refining with which we are salted.

Jipsah said:

Once filtered though SDA dogma, of course.

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This thread was not intended for SDA bashing. Will LGW agree with you? VERY unlikely, so why bother?

Clare73 said:

You haven't been keeping up. Post #222 follows:

Salted with the fire of refining, is dealing radically with our sin (cut it off, pluck it out) so that we won't end up in the LoF, making the LoF not the fire of refining with which we are salted.

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You have arrived logically...to a wrong conclusion.

I have not been keeping up - I'm way past.