Is there salvation without Mary?

Valletta · Sep 23, 2021

You

robycop3 said:
Read Matt. 13:54-56. They certainly WERE Mary's kids, ginen birth by her. Those Nazarenes knew His whole earthly family. as they'd lived there since Jesus was a toddler.

Hmm, don't remember any stories of Jesus as a child playing with brothers or sisters, I can't recall when Jesus was lost where such brothers and sisters were, do you think they helped look for him? Why would they be excluded from the Bible narrative? You are under the false notion that a "brother" or "sister" of Jesus referred to in the Bible must mean that Mary is the mother of those people. It does not.

bbbbbbb · Sep 23, 2021

Valletta said:
You

Hmm, don't remember any stories of Jesus as a child playing with brothers or sisters, I can't recall when Jesus was lost where such brothers and sisters were, do you think they helped look for him? Why would they be excluded from the Bible narrative? You are under the false notion that a "brother" or "sister" of Jesus referred to in the Bible must mean that Mary is the mother of those people. It does not.

So, who is the mother of those people?

prodromos · Sep 23, 2021

bbbbbbb said:
UMMM. Step-brothers and step-sisters?

Neither the Hebrews nor the Greeks have such a distinction.

bbbbbbb · Sep 23, 2021

prodromos said:
Neither the Hebrews nor the Greeks have such a distinction.

Given the fact that the perpetual virginity of Mary was at stake forever, would it not have been at least a possibility that all four authors would have attempted to explain where these brother and sisters originated?

Valletta · Sep 24, 2021

bbbbbbb said:
Given the fact that the perpetual virginity of Mary was at stake forever, would it not have been at least a possibility that all four authors would have attempted to explain where these brother and sisters originated?

At stake? Nothing is at stake. Gen 13:8: So Abram said to Lot, “Let’s not have any quarreling between you and me, or between your herdsmen and mine, for we are brothers” NIV
Even if you reject historical documents and have no Biblical language background, although according to the Bible Abram and Lot are brothers, they have both completely different parents.

prodromos · Sep 24, 2021

bbbbbbb said:
Given the fact that the perpetual virginity of Mary was at stake forever, would it not have been at least a possibility that all four authors would have attempted to explain where these brother and sisters originated?

At the time 3 of the Gospels were written, jesus' brothers and sisters were still alive. No need to write details that were generally known.

robycop3 · Sep 24, 2021

Valletta said:
You

Hmm, don't remember any stories of Jesus as a child playing with brothers or sisters, I can't recall when Jesus was lost where such brothers and sisters were, do you think they helped look for him? Why would they be excluded from the Bible narrative? You are under the false notion that a "brother" or "sister" of Jesus referred to in the Bible must mean that Mary is the mother of those people. It does not.

Jesus was the FIRSTBORN, not "only" born. And Joseph didn't wed Mary to just be his cook. After Jesus was born & their "purification", according to Mosaic law was over, he certainly had sex with her. And over time, she had at least 6 more kids. Remember, the Nazarenes lumped Jesus in with the whole family as they wondered why He was so much superior to them in many ways, while He was to them obviously one of them.
Mary's perpetual virginity is the myth here.

bbbbbbb · Sep 24, 2021

Valletta said:
At stake? Nothing is at stake. Gen 13:8: So Abram said to Lot, “Let’s not have any quarreling between you and me, or between your herdsmen and mine, for we are brothers” NIV
Even if you reject historical documents and have no Biblical language background, although according to the Bible Abram and Lot are brothers, they have both completely different parents.

You are willfully choosing an exception to make a rule. All other instances of the use of brother and sister in scripture are clearly defined, typically as having the same parents. In cases such as David's children the mothers are named and the relationships clearly defined.

If the sinless of Mary depended on her perpetual virginity and the gospel writers were remotely aware of this, then it is more than reasonable that they would have gone to reasonable lengths to explain that Mary and Joseph could not have had any of their own children because they were never observed engaging in any hanky-panky in bed together.

Valletta · Sep 24, 2021

I'm making no exception, since you don't appear to want to study the languages I gave you an example that shows the meaning of brother clearly extends beyond the same parents--you just don't want to accept that fact and try everything you can to ignore it. That Mary was without sin does not "depend" on her perpetual virginity. Where do you get this stuff? Intercourse between a married man and woman is not sinful. You have free will, you can ignore Sacred Tradition, historical documents, and language study if you wish.

Valletta · Sep 24, 2021

robycop3 said:
Jesus was the FIRSTBORN, not "only" born. And Joseph didn't wed Mary to just be his cook. After Jesus was born & their "purification", according to Mosaic law was over, he certainly had sex with her. And over time, she had at least 6 more kids. Remember, the Nazarenes lumped Jesus in with the whole family as they wondered why He was so much superior to them in many ways, while He was to them obviously one of them.
Mary's perpetual virginity is the myth here.

Yours is a lack of knowledge of what "first born" meant to Jews. "First born" does not mean that person never gets brothers and sisters. Study.

AdamjEdgar · Sep 24, 2021

bbbbbbb said:
You are willfully choosing an exception to make a rule. All other instances of the use of brother and sister in scripture are clearly defined, typically as having the same parents. In cases such as David's children the mothers are named and the relationships clearly defined.

If the sinless of Mary depended on her perpetual virginity and the gospel writers were remotely aware of this, then it is more than reasonable that they would have gone to reasonable lengths to explain that Mary and Joseph could not have had any of their own children because they were never observed engaging in any hanky-panky in bed together.

if the virginity of Mary is the only reason that she is able to be considered a saint...then Christianity is a myth! Jesus died for the sinner not for the saint.

Also, we know from the Bible Jesus had siblings...with the exception of children from his previous wife who passed away, surely you don't believe that these were not of his own mother and that he came from an immediate family where Joseph was engaging in polygamy?

The Council of Trent proclaimed the following regarding polygamy

The Council of Trent condemns polygyny: "If any one saith, that it is lawful for Christians to have several wives at the same time, and that this is not prohibited by any divine law; let him be anathema." Polygamy in Christianity - Wikipedia

Also regarding James the brother of Jesus (relevant because of the claim for the perpetural virginity of Mary)...I have an issue with the chronology of this fellow when it is claimed by the Catholic Church for example that he is the son of Salome and not a biological brother of Jesus.
Joseph married Salome and they live together for 49 years having six children (of whom James was the youngest).
This suggests that Salome would have married perhaps between the age of 15 and 20 and that James would have likely been born within a few years of the others...more than likely before Salome reached the age of 30.
This means that when Jesus was born, James would have been significantly older then him...perhaps 30.
That would put James at the ripe old age of 60 when Jesus started his ministry.
James died 30 years later in A.D 62 in matyrdom meaning a 90+ year old needed to be killed by stoning to death at the hands of High Priest Ananus ben Ananus.

A section in Wikipedia on James says the following (although there are varied claims as to his lineage by early church leaders also discussed here)

Jesus' brothers – James as well as Jude, Simon and Joses – are named in Matthew 13:55 and Mark 6:3 and mentioned elsewhere. James's name always appears first in lists, which suggests he was the eldest among them.[70] In Jewish Antiquities (20.9.1), Josephus describes James as "the brother of Jesus who is called Christ" James, brother of Jesus - Wikipedia

Now the problem is that the apostle John, who was also a disciple of Jesus lived well into his 90's and died about A.D 100...this is between 30 and 40 years after James

Its a very difficult one to figure out...but Im leaning towards James being a biological brother.

Jaxxi · Sep 25, 2021

A

Valletta said:
Mary had no other children, please don't spread rumors.

Are you even serious right now? You need to read your Bible. Do you know what two women were with Jesus when He died?

Jaxxi · Sep 25, 2021

bbbbbbb said:
It is quite unfortunate that the four gospel writers teamed up to originate the rumors that Jesus Christ had brother and sisters.

They weren't liars. Are you suggesting the Holy Bible contains lies?

Jaxxi · Sep 25, 2021

prodromos said:
Joseph's children are indeed Christ's brothers and sisters, despite not coming from Mary's womb. What else do you think the Gospel writers would call them?

What makes anyone think they were from another womb?

Jaxxi · Sep 25, 2021

bbbbbbb said:
It is quite unfortunate that the four gospel writers teamed up to originate the rumors that Jesus Christ had brother and sisters.

Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. Matthew 1:18

Saying that they came together afterwards
obviously making her no longer a virgin.

These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers. ACTS 1:14

ACTS is not one of the four Gospels.

Jaxxi · Sep 25, 2021

Valletta said:
Mary had no other children, please don't spread rumors.

These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers. Acts 1:14

Just because you don't know something do not accuse others of spreading lies. Just educate yourself.

robycop3 · Sep 25, 2021

Valletta said:
I'm making no exception, since you don't appear to want to study the languages I gave you an example that shows the meaning of brother clearly extends beyond the same parents--you just don't want to accept that fact and try everything you can to ignore it. That Mary was without sin does not "depend" on her perpetual virginity. Where do you get this stuff? Intercourse between a married man and woman is not sinful. You have free will, you can ignore Sacred Tradition, historical documents, and language study if you wish.

Mary was not without sin, "for ALL have sinned & come short of the glory of God".

robycop3 · Sep 25, 2021

Valletta said:
Yours is a lack of knowledge of what "first born" meant to Jews. "First born" does not mean that person never gets brothers and sisters. Study.

You made MY point in your above post. I said Mary had at least six other children, as Scripture says, not that she didn't have any others after Jesus.

Fidelibus · Sep 25, 2021

robycop3 said:
Mary was not without sin, "for ALL have sinned & come short of the glory of God".

Quoting Romans 3:23, correct? If so, is it your understanding and belief the word "all" in this passage is an absolute, and that "all" means absolutely all?

Also, are you seeking God?

Have a Blessed day!

robycop3 · Sep 25, 2021

Fidelibus said:
Quoting Romans 3:23, correct?

Yes.

If so, is it your understanding and belief the word "all" in this passage is an absolute, and that "all" means absolutely all?

Yes, all humans except Jesus while He was one.

Also, are you seeking God?

I have been saved since 1978.

Have a Blessed day!

You also! (Perhaps this'll be the day you abandon the RCC !)

Is there salvation without Mary?

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