Decrees of subtle satan

Did God give man authority to change his commandments?

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Hezekiah81

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(Deuteronomy 4:2) You shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall you diminish aught from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you. [Roman catholicism flagrantly and brazenly alter and displace God most high's word with their own, it's time to root out this falsehood. Now heedfully compare God's commandments (Exodus 20:3-17) versus roman catholicism's fallacious interpretation of them. You will see they blatantly left out the second commandment not to make any graven images so they can justify venerating there idols, look up sculptures in vatican city they are pagan sculptures renamed saints, also look up the obelisk they have on display it's also of pagan provenance. You will also notice they blotted out the word sabbath to justify their erroneously instated counterfeit day of worship. This is a man fabricated doctrine infused by satan. Man doesn't decide what righteous living is God most high does. God bless you.
 

Abaxvahl

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(Deuteronomy 4:2) You shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall you diminish aught from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you. [Roman catholicism flagrantly and brazenly alter and displace God most high's word with their own, it's time to root out this falsehood. Now heedfully compare God's commandments (Exodus 20:3-17) versus roman catholicism's fallacious interpretation of them. You will see they blatantly left out the second commandment not to make any graven images so they can justify venerating there idols, look up sculptures in vatican city they are pagan sculptures renamed saints, also look up the obelisk they have on display it's also of pagan provenance. You will also notice they blotted out the word sabbath to justify their erroneously instated counterfeit day of worship. This is a man fabricated doctrine infused by satan. Man doesn't decide what righteous living is God most high does. God bless you.

God did not give man the right to change His commandments but you have a fallacious and blatantly false interpretation of them in turn. I suppose the serpent, or the cherubim on the Ark, or the images of heavenly things in Solomon's Temple, were these pagan sculptures? Is all art pagan then? This entire debate was settled many centuries ago, and I'd recommend this work to look at it, for the arguments are the exact same.

God bless you.
 
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Hezekiah81

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God did not give man the right to change His commandments but you have a fallacious and blatantly false interpretation of them in turn. I suppose the serpent, or the cherubim on the Ark, or the images of heavenly things in Solomon's Temple, were these pagan sculptures? Is all art pagan then? This entire debate was settled many centuries ago, and I'd recommend this work to look at it, for the arguments are the exact same.

God bless you.
I'm sorry did God tell the children of israel to worship the bronze serpent or worship the cherubim?, No, he didn't and your man fabricated claims have nothing to stand on against the truth of God's word. Also the only people that are settled on this are the ones that compromise with the world which conveys pagan days and pagan ways.God bless you.
 
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Abaxvahl

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I'm sorry did God tell the children of israel to worship the bronze serpent or worship the cherubim?, No, he didn't and your man fabricated claims have nothing to stand on against the truth of God's word. Also the only people that are settled on this are the ones that compromise with the world which conveys pagan days and pagan ways.God bless you.

Neither did the Church tell people to give adoration/latria to the images (and it is considered a sin to do). So I assume that your position is that if that is not done then it's not in violation of the commandment? Then why do you condemn the Church?
 
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BobRyan

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This entire debate was settled many centuries ago, and I'd recommend this work to look at it, for the arguments are the exact same.
God bless you.

If you view the Bible evidence they make for it clear and convincing --- feel free to present it yourself. (go read some 20 page booklet or watch a video -- is not the same as summarizing the points they make)
 
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BobRyan

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Neither did the Church tell people to give adoration/latria to the images

The Bible says this

Ex 20:
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.(NKJV)

The two prohibitions are "bowing down to them"... and/OR "serving them".

Bowing down to the person represented by the image....
promising to serve the person represented by the image...
 
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Abaxvahl

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If you view the Bible evidence they make for it clear and convincing --- feel free to present it yourself. (go read some other book or watch a video -- is not the same as summarizing the points they make)

I linked it because the points I will make will almost certainly be the same as that work and the points against it will almost certainly be the same, the debate has genuinely stagnated.

The chief point being: God Incarnated so it is possible to represent Him in an image, for the Law says "do not make an image for you saw none on the mountain" but the Lord Jesus is "the image of the invisible God" and "we have seen His glory" so it is just in depicting Him due to this. The work begins this way also. It is impossible to depict a formless thing, but He in fact "came in the form of a servant" and so we can now do so, so this underpinning of the prohibition does not apply to the practice of the Church.

The Law also says "do this so that you do not lift your eyes toward heaven and observe the sun and the moon and the stars, all the host of the heaven, and be led astray and bow down to them and serve them," so that the aim of the Law is forbidding idolatry, which is simply putting the creature in place of the Creator as St. Paul gives in Romans. But is it idolatry in itself to depict something (and let's just be specific and say carve it or make a sculpture, for people oppose that the most, and if that is defeated then the rest follows) that is in Heaven, or on Earth, or under the Earth? No, for God commanded that the bronze snake (on the Earth) be depicted, and the Cherubim (in Heaven) be depicted. So it is not intrinsically evil to do so, provided it be not be idolatry, which the Church does not do with her images, putting the creature in place of the Creator.

Another simply being that due to the example of Scripture it is clear that not all bowing is idolatry, like Jacob bowing to Esau, or Bathsheba to Solomon, the brothers to Joseph, and so on, and no one would say that they put them in the place of the Creator by this act. Really this point is a cultural thing I believe since many in our era aren't used to bowing to people but the Church was born (both in the OT and NT) out of a cultural that was used to bowing to honorable persons, even entirely separate from idolatry (I am not considering paganism here).

To me these three points alone refute every argument of the iconoclasts, but if you want more (the work is simple and easy) you can read it for more. I will summarize a couple of other points:

Scripture by it's nature, especially concerning the Gospel, produces images in the mind. Consider the Crucifixion, the Birth of Jesus, His being scourged, Him preaching, the feeding of the 5000 and the 4000, the shipwreck of St. Paul, St. Paul's imprisonment, the Seven-Eyed Lamb of Revelation, the beauty of the lovers in the Song, the elaborate descriptions of the glory of the Levitical priesthood, and so on. When we read images are given to our mind because in our current state we are sense-bound, as God Himself gives us all these images it is absurd to say that a depiction of them is idolatry, not to mention when idolatry (defined above) isn't done there is no idolatry just like there is no murder where no murder is done.

And another which is simple but not valuable to all since they depart from the Tradition, is this: it is the Tradition of the Church, which carries weight, and without many things about the Gospels and such would not be known (authorship, locations, etc), and due to that consequence and many other false ones it should not be rejected. Supporting this I would draw on St. Vincent one of my favorites who says:

"Some one perhaps will ask, Since the canon of Scripture is complete, and sufficient of itself for everything, and more than sufficient, what need is there to join with it the authority of the Church's interpretation? For this reason — because, owing to the depth of Holy Scripture, all do not accept it in one and the same sense, but one understands its words in one way, another in another; so that it seems to be capable of as many interpretations as there are interpreters. For Novatian expounds it one way, Sabellius another, Donatus another, Arius, Eunomius, Macedonius, another, Photinus, Apollinaris, Priscillian, another, Iovinian, Pelagius, Celestius, another, lastly, Nestorius another. Therefore, it is very necessary, on account of so great intricacies of such various error, that the rule for the right understanding of the prophets and apostles should be framed in accordance with the standard of Ecclesiastical and Universal interpretation."

Like I said more information is available in that book by St. John of Damascus. Pretty much every discussion between the iconoclasts and the Church will be some variation of these points and not much has changed in all these centuries (St. John of Damascus died in 749AD).
 
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Hezekiah81

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I linked it because the points I will make will almost certainly be the same as that work and the points against it will almost certainly be the same, the debate has genuinely stagnated.

The chief point being: God Incarnated so it is possible to represent Him in an image, for the Law says "do not make an image for you saw none on the mountain" but the Lord Jesus is "the image of the invisible God" and "we have seen His glory" so it is just in depicting Him due to this. The work begins this way also. It is impossible to depict a formless thing, but He in fact "came in the form of a servant" and so we can now do so, so this underpinning of the prohibition does not apply to the practice of the Church.

The Law also says "do this so that you do not lift your eyes toward heaven and observe the sun and the moon and the stars, all the host of the heaven, and be led astray and bow down to them and serve them," so that the aim of the Law is forbidding idolatry, which is simply putting the creature in place of the Creator as St. Paul gives in Romans. But is it idolatry in itself to depict something (and let's just be specific and say carve it or make a sculpture, for people oppose that the most, and if that is defeated then the rest follows) that is in Heaven, or on Earth, or under the Earth? No, for God commanded that the bronze snake (on the Earth) be depicted, and the Cherubim (in Heaven) be depicted. So it is not intrinsically evil to do so, provided it be not be idolatry, which the Church does not do with her images, putting the creature in place of the Creator.

Another simply being that due to the example of Scripture it is clear that not all bowing is idolatry, like Jacob bowing to Esau, or Bathsheba to Solomon, the brothers to Joseph, and so on, and no one would say that they put them in the place of the Creator by this act. Really this point is a cultural thing I believe since many in our era aren't used to bowing to people but the Church was born (both in the OT and NT) out of a cultural that was used to bowing to honorable persons, even entirely separate from idolatry (I am not considering paganism here).

To me these three points alone refute every argument of the iconoclasts, but if you want more (the work is simple and easy) you can read it for more. I will summarize a couple of other points:

Scripture by it's nature, especially concerning the Gospel, produces images in the mind. Consider the Crucifixion, the Birth of Jesus, His being scourged, Him preaching, the feeding of the 5000 and the 4000, the shipwreck of St. Paul, St. Paul's imprisonment, the Seven-Eyed Lamb of Revelation, the beauty of the lovers in the Song, the elaborate descriptions of the glory of the Levitical priesthood, and so on. When we read images are given to our mind because in our current state we are sense-bound, as God Himself gives us all these images it is absurd to say that a depiction of them is idolatry, not to mention when idolatry (defined above) isn't done there is no idolatry just like there is no murder where no murder is done.

And another which is simple but not valuable to all since they depart from the Tradition, is this: it is the Tradition of the Church, which carries weight, and without many things about the Gospels and such would not be known (authorship, locations, etc), and due to that consequence and many other false ones it should not be rejected. Supporting this I would draw on St. Vincent one of my favorites who says:

"Some one perhaps will ask, Since the canon of Scripture is complete, and sufficient of itself for everything, and more than sufficient, what need is there to join with it the authority of the Church's interpretation? For this reason — because, owing to the depth of Holy Scripture, all do not accept it in one and the same sense, but one understands its words in one way, another in another; so that it seems to be capable of as many interpretations as there are interpreters. For Novatian expounds it one way, Sabellius another, Donatus another, Arius, Eunomius, Macedonius, another, Photinus, Apollinaris, Priscillian, another, Iovinian, Pelagius, Celestius, another, lastly, Nestorius another. Therefore, it is very necessary, on account of so great intricacies of such various error, that the rule for the right understanding of the prophets and apostles should be framed in accordance with the standard of Ecclesiastical and Universal interpretation."

Like I said more information is available in that book by St. John of Damascus. Pretty much every discussion between the iconoclasts and the Church will be some variation of these points and not much has changed in all these centuries (St. John of Damascus died in 749AD).
When you compromise with the world you convey pagan days and pagan ways. God bless you.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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No one has the right to tinker with God’s Word especially what God personally wrote with His own hand and spoke with His own voice which is the Ten Commandments.

Proverbs 30: Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
6 Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.
 
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Hezekiah81

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God did not give man the right to change His commandments but you have a fallacious and blatantly false interpretation of them in turn. I suppose the serpent, or the cherubim on the Ark, or the images of heavenly things in Solomon's Temple, were these pagan sculptures? Is all art pagan then? This entire debate was settled many centuries ago, and I'd recommend this work to look at it, for the arguments are the exact same.

God bless you.
Are you calling the things God most high commanded to be made to be of pagan provenance? Are you insinuating that God most high is a pagan himself? Sure sounds like it to me, but this is what happens when you try to justify your pagan days and pagan ways.
 
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BobRyan

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I linked it because the points I will make will almost certainly be the same as that work and the points against it will almost certainly be the same,

No doubt since you do agree with it. But I suspect your presentation will be shorter than 20 pages.
 
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Abaxvahl

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Are you calling the things God most high commanded to be made to be of pagan provenance? Are you insinuating that God most high is a pagan himself? Sure sounds like it to me, but this is what happens when you try to justify your pagan days and pagan ways.

No and no. For I only justified what God commanded, even if it be unnecessary for as it says in Psalm 18 (19 in Hebrew) "the judgments of the Lord are true, justified in themselves." I don't need to justify what God says for it is justified in itself just because He said it. Nothing pagan about it.
 
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BobRyan

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The chief point being: God Incarnated so it is possible to represent Him in an image, for the Law says "do not make an image for you saw none on the mountain"

Indeed. And it forbids making an image to God - even though Moses "Saw God" according to the text "face to face" and so also did the 70 elders of Israel see God.

Exodus 24:
9 Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, 10 and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. 11 Yet He did not reach out with His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, and they ate and drank.

We know from John 1 that they could not have seen God the Father - but they did see God the Son in that case.

STILL they were commanded NOT to make an image to Him at that very same time.

He in fact "came in the form of a servant" and so we can now do so, so this underpinning of the prohibition does not apply .

Your argument appears to fail just then.

but the Lord Jesus is "the image of the invisible God" and "we have seen His glory"

Indeed - yet He Himself stated that He continued to affirm His Law spoken by Him at Sinai in Matt 5.

Matt 5:
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
 
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Abaxvahl

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Indeed. And it forbids making an image to God - even though Moses "Saw God" according to the text "face to face" and so also did the 70 elders of Israel see God.

The argument does not fail due to the distinctions between the glory of God, the essence of God, and depicting the flesh of God, and so on. But ultimately this is an area where I do not know enough to proceed, not because your argument proves iconoclasm but because the MT has a variant which is not what I read in my Scriptures.

One version: "And they saw the God of Israel: and under his feet as it were a work of sapphire stone, and as the heaven, when clear. Neither did he lay his hand upon those of the children of Israel, that retired afar off, and they saw God, and they did eat and drink."

Another translation: "And they saw the place where the God of Israel stood; and under his feet was as it were a work of sapphire slabs, and as it were the appearance of the firmament of heaven in its purity. And of the chosen ones of Israel there was not even one missing, and they appeared in the place of God, and did eat and drink."

From my physical Bible: "And they saw the place, there where the God of Israel stood, and that which was beneath his feet, like something made from lapis lazuli brick and like the appearance of the firmament of heaven in purity. And not even one of the chosen of Israel perished."

It is beyond my knowledge to see which reading is valid, although I think even yours is consonant with my point.
 
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BobRyan

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The argument does not fail due to the distinctions between the glory of God, the essence of God, and depicting the flesh of God, and so on. But ultimately this is an area where I do not know enough to proceed,

The commandment is pretty simple - it says --


Ex 20:
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.(NKJV)

The two prohibitions are "bowing down to them"... and/OR "serving them" using images and if they are not god at all then it would be prohibited to bow down to them or serve them even without the image..

In any case in the simplest scenario - two prohibitions

1. Bowing down to the person represented by the image - using the image....
2. promising to serve the person represented by the image - using the image...

Your comment about what kind of form of God was seen in Ex 24 and numbers 12 is not even mentioned in the Commandment - at all. Nothing at all in it allowing it to be deleted depending on the "kind of form" of God one was going to instantiate as a metal image.

============================== as for seeing God in the OT

One version: "And they saw the God of Israel: and under his feet as it were a work of sapphire stone, and as the heaven, when clear. Neither did he lay his hand upon those of the children of Israel, that retired afar off, and they saw God, and they did eat and drink."

And in Numbers 12 we have this

Numbers 12
6 Then He said,
“Hear now My words:
If there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, make Myself known to him in a vision;
I speak to him in a dream.
7 Not so with My servant Moses;
He is faithful in all My house.
8 I speak with him face to face,
Even plainly, and not in dark sayings;
And he sees the form of the LORD (YHWH)
Why then were you not afraid
To speak against My servant Moses?”

Ezek 1 NKJV
Ezekiel’s Vision of God
26 And above the firmament over their heads was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne was a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it. 27 Also from the appearance of His waist and upward I saw, as it were, the color of amber with the appearance of fire all around within it; and from the appearance of His waist and downward I saw, as it were, the appearance of fire with brightness all around. 28 Like the appearance of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the brightness all around it. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord.

Dan 7:9
The Ancient of Days Reigns
9 “I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
 
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SkyWriting

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Man doesn't decide what righteous living is God most high does. God bless you.

Man decides what righteous living is.

James 4:17
So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.
 
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Abaxvahl

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The commandment is pretty simple - it says --

Ex 20:
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.(NKJV)

I have no idea what you mean by serving, and as for bowing down the reason is given in Deut 4 which I already mentioned before. Exodus 20 is the less expansive form and Deuteronomy gives more detail. As for seeing God: they saw only His energies but in the Incarnation we have seen a Divine Person wholly so the transformation stands (I realized the distinction).
 
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