Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

Lazarus Short said:

I may as well discuss with a wall. You dismiss two years of intense study with a wave of your hand. Why? Do you really think I am not sincere?

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Just a minute. I didn't dismiss anything or doubt the information about the two years of study. None of that was in my post.

However, you wrote the following (emphasis mine): "The OP wanted to ask what kept people back from universalism, but it has devolved into a thread about proofs pro or con."

I agreed with you. That was the topic, just as you said. And it caused me to offer an answer to the question.

I answered that the great majority of Christians who do not accept universalism do so on the basis of what the Bible says on the subject. THAT's what "keeps people back."

You may feel that the Bible endorses the concept of universalism, but relatively few Christians think so and almost no denominations.

So with all due respect for people who affirm universalism, the answer to the question of this thread is straightforward. The people asked about believe as they do because of their belief in the truth of the Bible. There's no complicated reason, no obscure reason, no surprising reason. They and the churches to which they belong find in the Bible that the word of God teaches the opposite of universalism.

Hillsage said:

"LONE VOICE" you say Albion? This has been posted a hundred times by me in the past. No takers refuting it.

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"LONE VOICE"= St. Augustine. (Not you.)

The pro-universalism POV as argued on this thread has more than once tried to show how strong its case allegedly is by citing one Early Church Father (and one who wasn't very "early" at that).

If he is the lone voice from the first half-millennium who can be cited in defense of this theory, it isn't very strong as evidence.

2PhiloVoid said:

Overcomplicating it? Do you know how often I've heard that slam-dunk type dismissal?

If I only had a dime for every instance ...

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I don't recall ever hearing it before. From my perspective I arrived at that conclusion on my own. While I've seen several treads about universalism, I don't recall coming across any threads about annihilationism. So I haven't seen how it's debated. But I understand where you're coming from now.

MMXX said:

Okay in all fairness in annihilationism (as I understand it) there's life after death for the wicked long enough for them to be judged and then permanently blotted out of existence. Then added to interim is if the annihilationist believes in soul sleep or not. But the only reason why I brought up annihilationism, is because it was one so-called heresy being used to debunk another so-called heresy.

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Perhaps you can start up a thread and prove to everyone that the wicked are not destroyed at the second coming from the scriptures. Something I am yet to see with your many claims of heresy unsupported by the scriptures that are simply your words in denial of the scriptures shared with you here linked. According to the scriptures our opinions do not really matter much. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them over the teachings and traditions of men that lead us way from God and His Word (Romans 3:4).

Take Care.

I am not offended/annoyed by the concept of Christian Universalism at all. In fact, I want it to be true. Unfortunately, I don’t believe it’s true nor biblical.

The vast majority of non-believers don’t want to have anything to do with God. Many who claim not to believe, I think, are disingenuous. They know there’s a God but they hate the thought of surrendering their will to him. One of my non-believer friends said those exact words today.

People will definitely be sorry they end up eternally separated from God, but they still won’t love him.

In the story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16 (which some biblical scholars say is not a parable but an actual event since Lazarus was mentioned by name), the rich man is regretting his former disbelief, but he’s still not repentant.

Those who want nothing to do with God now will get their desire eternally granted.

LoveGodsWord said:

Perhaps you can start up a thread and prove to everyone that the wicked are not destroyed at the second coming from the scriptures. Something I am yet to see with your many claims of heresy unsupported by the scriptures that are simply your words in denial of the scriptures shared with you here linked. According to the scriptures our opinions do not really matter much. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them over the teachings and traditions of men that lead us way from God and His Word (Romans 3:4).

Take Care.

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"Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them over the teachings and traditions of men that lead us way from God and His Word" is used to support virtually every doctrine in existence.

You're using the same argument everyone you think has a false doctrine uses. "My doctrine is backed up by God's Word!". So is virtually everyone else's. You have a link to a bunch of verses showing that your doctrine is scriptural. Virtually everyone has a bunch of verses to show their doctrine is scriptural.

Interpretation of what the Bible says is the real issue. I think anyone who's really after the truth will see that and admit that their doctrine is an interpretation of God's Word.

MMXX said:

"Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them over the teachings and traditions of men that lead us way from God and His Word" is used to support virtually every doctrine in existence.

You're using the same argument everyone you think has a false doctrine uses. "My doctrine is backed up by God's Word!". So is virtually everyone else's. You have a link to a bunch of verses showing that your doctrine is scriptural. Virtually everyone has a bunch of verses to show their doctrine is scriptural.

Interpretation of what the Bible says is the real issue. I think anyone who's really after the truth will see that and admit that their doctrine is an interpretation of God's Word.

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No sadly I am not assuming anything. You have been provided scripture that disagrees with your position. You have provided nothing accept claims of heresy your not able to prove from the scriptures. Not much more to be said really accept who should we believe and follow; God or man? *Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29

Take Care.

2PhiloVoid said:

I have a question ...

... since Universalists seem to have 1 Corinthians 15:22 as a primary "go to verse," how do they reconcile their interpretation of this with what Paul writes previous to this in the vary same letter in 1 Corinthians 6:9 and then later to the same group of people in 2 Corinthians 5:10?

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I'd say regarding 1 Corinthians 6:9, it would be pointed that everyone starts out as a sinner. Which would go with 1 Corinthians 15:22. As I understand it, universalism is saying just as Christians came to Christ and were forgiven through Christ in this world/age, everyone else will come to Christ and be forgiven through Christ in the world/age to come. But literally "there will be hell to pay" first.

As for 2 Corinthians 5:10, that's regarded by pretty much everyone as pertaining to Christians. Christians will stand before the Judgement Seat of Christ also written about in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, which is different from the White Throne Judgement talked about in Revelation 20:12.

Lazarus Short said:

Why? More to the point, why do you say it so readily. Further, which Bible? I have at least three versions in my library which do not mention "hell." So I can say that Hell and ECT are un-Biblical. Saying "not biblical" assumes that the Bible, the Church and theology are monolithic, but none of them are.

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The word hell is not in the Bible but there are words that are used for the place called hell.. God has established himself in the Bible especially in the old testament. From the beginning he's made it clear our dedication to him and the results if we shun him. Examine yourself, your motives in dispelling gods intent. Once I was told that the unit's were superior in intelligence and the average Joe could never comprehend it's magnitude. Do you think Jesus would ever think or even say that? Would you follow anyone with that dilusion of grandior? Don't set yourselves up as greater then God. I see no need to prove my beliefs so no debates but you all need to convince others to convince yourselves. Safety in numbers?
The uni:s have no fear of God. I am fearful for them to dare to say and treat God the way they are. How can you even comprehend facing God? And believe me that day will come. Repent while you can. have you sinned so badly that you need this escape you believe in?

Albion said:

Just a minute. I didn't dismiss anything or doubt the information about the two years of study. None of that was in my post.

However, you wrote the following (emphasis mine): "The OP wanted to ask what kept people back from universalism, but it has devolved into a thread about proofs pro or con."

I agreed with you. That was the topic, just as you said. And it caused me to offer an answer to the question.

I answered that the great majority of Christians who do not accept universalism do so on the basis of what the Bible says on the subject. THAT's what "keeps people back."

You may feel that the Bible endorses the concept of universalism, but relatively few Christians think so and almost no denominations.

So with all due respect for people who affirm universalism, the answer to the question of this thread is straightforward. The people asked about believe as they do because of their belief in the truth of the Bible. There's no complicated reason, no obscure reason, no surprising reason. They and the churches to which they belong find in the Bible that the word of God teaches the opposite of universalism.

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I don't think most Christians find anything in the Bible. They believe what the preacher/minister/priest says and what their church's statement of doctrine says. Very few have cracked a Bible to find out for themselves.

BTW, sorry if I overreacted to your previous post...

MMXX said:

ECT has been very deeply ingrained in most traditional Christian teaching. To the point where suggesting there isn't going to be everlasting conscious torment, isn't just viewed as heresy but tantamount to blasphemy.

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Very true, you all do your best to do away with Jesus.

returntosender said:

The word hell is not in the Bible but there are words that are used for the place called hell.. God has established himself in the Bible especially in the old testament. From the beginning he's made it clear our dedication to him and the results if we shun him. Examine yourself, your motives in dispelling gods intent. Once I was told that the unit's were superior in intelligence and the average Joe could never comprehend it's magnitude. Do you think Jesus would ever think or even say that? Would you follow anyone with that dilusion of grandior? Don't set yourselves up as greater then God. I see no need to prove my beliefs so no debates but you all need to convince others to convince yourselves. Safety in numbers?
The uni:s have no fear of God. I am fearful for them to dare to say and treat God the way they are. How can you even comprehend facing God? And believe me that day will come. Repent while you can. have you sinned so badly that you need this escape you believe in?

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It is a mistake to think universalists don't fear God. We take His Son Jesus the Christ at His word when He told us we could call on God as our Abba, Father.

What do you think I have to repent of? I have repented of many things, chief among them having been an atheist. Having been a damnationist is a small matter. As for facing God, I do not need to comprehend it - God says we will all give an account. You write as if I am not a Christian.

LoveGodsWord said:

No sadly I am not assuming anything. You have been provided scripture that disagrees with your position. You have provided nothing accept claims of heresy your not able to prove from the scriptures.

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I'm as open to the interpretation of scripture regarding annellationism, as I am to the interpretation of scripture regarding universalism. That said, both interpretations are regarded as heresy. Heresy really just means that it's not in accordance to orthodox Christianity. These days some equate the word heresy with sacrilege and blasphemy, but originally that's not what heresy meant. Heresy just meant unorthodox. I think you should have taken into consideration that I called both annellationism and universalism heresy. Because that's what they are, because both are unorthodox.

LoveGodsWord said:

Not much more to be said really accept who should we believe and follow; God or man? *Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29

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That's exactly what orthodox Christianity says about what you believe/teach.

returntosender said:

Very true, you all do your best to do away with Jesus.

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No, we honor Jesus the Christ as the Creator and Savior of the whole Cosmos. The majority limit Him by subscribing to a theology which, if you understand its implications, maintains that He can't make all things new, though He stated that He would.

MMXX said:

I'm as open to the interpretation of scripture regarding annellationism, as I am to the interpretation of scripture regarding universalism. That said, both interpretations are regarded as heresy. Heresy really just means that it's not in accordance to orthodox Christianity. These days some equate the word heresy with sacrilege and blasphemy, but originally that's not what heresy meant. Heresy just meant unorthodox. I think you should have taken into consideration that I called both annellationism and universalism heresy. Because that's what they are, because both are unorthodox. That's exactly what orthodox Christianity says about what you believe/teach.

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According to the scriptures it is the many that are called but only the few that are chosen *Matthew 22:14. An appeal to orthodoxy or generally accepted theory, doctrine, or practice does not necessarily relate to what is true and what is not true. In the days of Jesus His teachings were generally considered by the religious teachers of the day as being unorthodox while His teachings were generally against what was considered the accepted theories and doctrines and traditions of His day *Matthew 15:2-9. So to appeal to what the majority believes and teaches is not always an appeal to what is right and true. In the days of Jesus the orthodox teachers of the day called Him of the devil and His followers a cult *John 10:20-25; Acts of the Apostles 28:22. Therefore the only standard of truth according to the scriptures is the Word of God *John 17:17 as we are guided by His Spirit *John 16:13. It is the Word of God therefore witnessed by the Spirit of truth that bears witness to the Word of truth that is the only standard of what is true and what is not true. This is a revelation from God to those who believe and follow Gods' Word and seek Him for it *John 8:31-36; John 14:26. If we neglect Gods' Word therefore we put out the lamp that lights the way when the road is dark and narrow *Psalms 119:105; Matthew 7:13-14. There is nothing new under the sun according to the scriptures. The thing that has been is the thing that will be again but what does this even mean *Ecclesiastes 1:9? The many therefore will never know until it is too late according to the scriptures *Matthew 7:21-23.

Take Care.

Hmm said:

Well, why is UR not biblical?

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Because I’m Matthew 7:21-27 Jesus specifically said that not everyone who says to Him Lord Lord will enter Heaven. If universalism is true then this would be a false statement.

Hmm said:

That would only apply to people who want to be saved in the next life but don't want to honour God in this. You're also implying that you can fob God off with an act of insincere repentence in the next life, which is not the view taken by universalism.

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No I’m not implying that their repentance would be insincere when they’re receiving their punishment. On the contrary I think at that point they will be most sincere since they have come to realize the severity of their consequences. It will no longer be something in the future that may not ever take place, by then it will be all too real. Then they’ll realize their mistake.

MMXX said:

Even if hell isn't an eternal torture chamber, eternal speration from God, total annihilation etc, I still would not want to go there. But my main reason for trying my best to live the way God wants me to is because He's my Father and I love Him and want to please Him, and avoid doing things that greave Him, because I love Him.

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God gives both incentives for motivating people to repent, both His love and His wrath. Perhaps some need different incentives for motivation.