Refusing to be vaccinated against Covid-19 is a ’sin’ & anti-vaxxers must spend their life repenting

rusmeister · Sep 23, 2021

ArmyMatt said:
I hate Game of Thrones. it's nothing more than gore and inappropriate content.

as for the bishop, yes his people rejected him and there were other correctly believing bishops who backed the people.

I guess my point was that skirting answers or whatever is also not ignoring someone. maybe it was vague or something, but that's not the same as simply dismissing someone.

and it's probably not that he's refusing to do it, he's probably not thinking about it as that podcast was 4 years ago.

I mean that he refused to look into it then, even though I was telling him at the time that it was a problem, not that I would imagine him to be continuing to think about it four years later. A lot of other complaints have been raised by people who, like me, think AFR should not be hosting speakers who are pro-abortion, pro-sexual anarchy (the alphabet soup people) and so on. The chickens are coming home to roost from this skirting answers, vagueness, and evasion. I think it can be said in a rather literal sense that there will be hell to pay from the evasion, which I was not the only one to experience. That’s one reason why I am not willing to tolerate it, and want straight answers.

I would like to see this become a mere kerfluffle and die down. But it requires honesty, straight talks, and right action for that to happen, and that hasn’t been happening. Are you aware of the public fuss being raised? My goal is to put an end to it, but it means also putting an end to certain choices and policies. Apologies where appropriate would also settle people down.

For my part, I never intended, and would certainly apologize for any perception that I was accusing people of deliberate evil, of desiring evil. The most I ever saw was an insensitivity to it, and an unwillingness to investigate the charges.

ArmyMatt · Sep 23, 2021

rusmeister said:
I mean that he refused to look into it then, even though I was telling him at the time that it was a problem, not that I would imagine him to be continuing to think about it four years later. A lot of other complaints have been raised by people who, like me, think AFR should not be hosting speakers who are pro-abortion, pro-sexual anarchy (the alphabet soup people) and so on. The chickens are coming home to roost from this skirting answers, vagueness, and evasion. I think it can be said in a rather literal sense that there will be hell to pay from the evasion, which I was not the only one to experience. That’s one reason why I am not willing to tolerate it, and want straight answers.

I would like to see this become a mere kerfluffle and die down. But it requires honesty, straight talks, and right action for that to happen, and that hasn’t been happening. Are you aware of the public fuss being raised? My goal is to put an end to it, but it means also putting an end to certain choices and policies. Apologies where appropriate would also settle people down.

For my part, I never intended, and would certainly apologize for any perception that I was accusing people of deliberate evil, of desiring evil. The most I ever saw was an insensitivity to it, and an unwillingness to investigate the charges.

sure, and maybe it will lead to more clarity.

gurneyhalleck1 · Sep 23, 2021

To be honest, I detest both parties, Fender. I hate the Democrats because they try to push sodomy, drugs, mandates, abortion, atheism, shaky science, too much government, and socialism on Americans. They honestly make me sick. Then you have the Republicans who like to spread phony quotes, deep fake videos, conspiracy theories, dangerous butcheries of science, and they use the carrot dangling with Christians about abortion where we know the "right to choose" will never go away. The Republicans really are a shadow of the Democrats with a few subtle differences and different panderings. Both parties suck royally. There should be 4 or 5 legitimate parties in the U.S., but it'll never happen. I voted Trump because he honestly was NOT a real Republican. He hijacked the party, which I thought was great.

Please forgive me for owning a Gibson product along with my Fender stuff. Forgive me, a sinner. ^_^

FenderTL5 said:
If I were to dissect your post line by line, there's quite a bit where my view would differ from yours. However, I 'like' the post because overall, I think it's reasonable. fwiw, I'm third party voter and have been since W vs Gore. Prior, I was a registered Republican.

gurneyhalleck1 · Sep 23, 2021

His post takes this into account heavily.

prodromos said:
That isn't what Rus or I are doing.

gurneyhalleck1 · Sep 23, 2021

Well, I agree, Dot. I think the bitter, yucky taste of the past 30 years, especially the most recent 15 years or so, is so vile that it makes the stomach churn. I worry for my kids. I can't fathom the world they'll inherit. I feel like we're already entering into a new era of Christian persecution Rome style. It won't be long till Orthodoxy is once again illegal and it's catacombs time. People usually accuse me of being dramatic when I say that, but at the rate we're going, I can't see any other setup.

Dorothea said:
I share your feelings on what's ahead for our country. TBH, I'm surprised the US hadn't collapsed quite a while ago. But I'm thinking it's all the good citizens in our nation that have helped save it from all the evil actions our leaders/government has done. I have a sour taste in my mouth over the whole corruption stuff, so it's hard for me to feel enthusiastic in any way about how our society and government works and is headed. Wish I could be, but those days are long gone for me. But I truly understand your POV.

gurneyhalleck1 · Sep 23, 2021

Hard to believe it's been that long since he passed. My grandpa passed away in 2014 and it seems like the other day. I miss him.

Dorothea said:
Sorry, Laura. I do understand yours and other people's decisions to take the shot to lessen symptoms, especially for the elderly. Although, truly, I think there needs to be more data on exactly how beneficial the shots have been or will be for the elderly who've taken them since they were rolled out, to be fair.

However, I must be honest, as I tend to be, and say that I am concerned about the long-term effects of the vaccines. Nobody has real data on that yet.

Thank you for your kind words about my father. He reposed in 2012.

prodromos · Sep 23, 2021

gurneyhalleck1 said:
His post takes this into account heavily.

That was just one aspect he focused on in post 698. You are ignoring that has referred to seeing numerous ways in which the narrative simply doesn't add up, which is what I understand too. Perhaps it is easier for us to see being somewhat removed geographically, because it is obvious to us that there has been fraud committed on a huge scale in the last elections. You disagree, and that is fine, but please don't pretend that you are able to get inside our heads. It ends up being insulting, which I am certain is not your intention.
I hope and pray that you are getting the sleep you need.

Dorothea · Sep 23, 2021

gurneyhalleck1 said:
Hard to believe it's been that long since he passed. My grandpa passed away in 2014 and it seems like the other day. I miss him.

May his memory be eternal. :crosseo:

rusmeister · Sep 24, 2021

ArmyMatt said:
sure, and maybe it will lead to more clarity.

But surely you agree that it would have been better to confirm what GOT was THEN, and remove the particular podcast from the platform? Steve would have been disappointed, but maybe he would have gotten that we really shouldn't have stuff that depraved as part of our spiritual diet. And this would never have come up again. The end.

But that wasn't done. Now it's part of the laundry list of legitimate complaints against AF, which ought to be working towards, not against unity by consensus with the fathers within Orthodoxy.

ArmyMatt · Sep 24, 2021

rusmeister said:
But surely you agree that it would have been better to confirm what GOT was THEN, and remove the particular podcast from the platform? Steve would have been disappointed, but maybe he would have gotten that we really shouldn't have stuff that depraved as part of our spiritual diet. And this would never have come up again. The end.

But that wasn't done. Now it's part of the laundry list of legitimate complaints against AF, which ought to be working towards, not against unity by consensus with the fathers within Orthodoxy.

I don't know. I can see the value of removing it, or editing out the GoT part, or leaving it up but adding a disclaimer or something at the beginning.

prodromos · Sep 24, 2021

prodromos said:
My mother is now suffering terribly from adverse reactions to the vaccine. This is after her miraculous recovery from severe brain injury almost a year ago. She can now barely walk and is in a lot of pain. Her doctor is clueless and is not able to help her, the same doctor who recommended she get vaccinated. My mum has gone from glorifying God, to wishing she were dead.
My son-in-law is now managing a heart condition that he never had until he got vaccinated.

I once again covet your prayers. My mother has been taken to hospital after she was found collapsed on the floor in her kitchen late in the afternoon. She was preparing breakfast so she must have collapsed in the morning. I am not able to visit her as my local government area is one of those in lockdown. Lord have mercy!

Dorothea · Sep 24, 2021

prodromos said:
I once again covet your prayers. My mother has been taken to hospital after she was found collapsed on the floor in her kitchen late in the afternoon. She was preparing breakfast so she must have collapsed in the morning. I am not able to visit her as my local government area is one of those in lockdown. Lord have mercy!

Lord, have mercy! So very sorry to read this, John. God be with her, your whole family, and may He guide her doctors.

Incidentally, my mother has fallen several times in the past week/days, isn't doing well, on anti-depressants, bp meds, etc. and self-medicates with vodka, which makes things worse. Thursday morning, my sister called my mom and asked how she was doing. She said she'd been on the floor since 3 a.m. unable to get up. Apparently, the day before when two women from the church there, my son, and mom's GP's weekly nurse came by, mom was in bed, couldn't even sit up, had accidents in her bed and on the rug. She couldn't make it to the bathroom.

For several years my sister and I have tried to talk Mom into going to assistant living. At this point, she can't live on her own, the nurse said.

Anyway, my sister called the ambulance, and they came and picked up Mom. She was tested for covid and tested positive. But nobody did a CT scan on her head for head trauma after all those falls and her not remembering things, her whole body aching, etc. In any case, my sister and niece (the latter is a social worker) contacted the hospital who was going to give her monoclonal antibody treatment then release her to go home (but the nurse from the other day suggested she go to a rehab place). So, my niece got them to transfer her to a covid floor in another hospital and I'm hoping she gets treated there with good meds for the covid and also they do other testing -- check her head, and also if she has dementia/any start of mental deterioration. For over a decade, she has lost her sense of smell and taste.

So, I will be praying for your mother, John.

Please also, if you all could, pray for my mother. Thank you!

Andrei D · Sep 24, 2021

Among these discussions it is easy to lose sight of the realities on the ground.

I continue to be strongly against the administration of any medical procedure or treatment under duress, constraint or blackmail. It seems eerie that I even have to say that, atrocious that this statement is actually contentious.

However, in the interest of the same universal principle of informed consent, I think it is just to also point out that what I see, with my own eyes: in my state, within my healthcare system, we are finally past the peak, as it appears, of this latest wave, but in the past ~6 weeks we had a larger case load than during the whole previous year. Lots of MUCH younger, much healthier people with severe COVID disease. Among the intubated, almost exclusively unvaccinated. Positives seem to be almost half and half. Any severity of illness are a still majority unvaccinated but not by a whole lot (60-65%). Severe illness and intubated are at least 95% unvaccinated.

Right now:
210 intubated of which 207 unvaccinated
Ages:
22% aged 65+
41% aged 50-64
37% aged 18-49

I won't make commentary and I realize this is about five counties worth of data so may not be a complete picture.

rusmeister · Sep 24, 2021

ArmyMatt said:
I don't know. I can see the value of removing it, or editing out the GoT part, or leaving it up but adding a disclaimer or something at the beginning.

It’s the last two that get my goat.
You must really have not listened to the podcast yourself, because it is ENTIRELY about GOT. You can’t “remove the GOT part” without removing the whole podcast. This points up what I was saying - that I raised a serious concern, and Fr Andrew didn’t give it a listen - he ignored my concern and assumed “everything was OK” and I was just an unreasonably disgruntled layman. You defend Fr Andrew’s decisions, even though you didn't research it either. It’s like I’m the only person here who both familiarized myself with GOT AND listened to the podcast episode.
Adding a disclaimer? Like, “Warning: the topic in question contains inappropriate contentography, and AFR is not responsible for the encouragement to view it the listener will receive here?” What kind of disclaimer could possibly be moral if you are familiar with the content of both GOT and the episode?

I honestly don’t understand you, Fr Matt.

ArmyMatt · Sep 24, 2021

rusmeister said:
It’s the last two that get my goat.
You must really have not listened to the podcast yourself, because it is ENTIRELY about GOT. You can’t “remove the GOT part” without removing the whole podcast. This points up what I was saying - that I raised a serious concern, and Fr Andrew didn’t give it a listen - he ignored my concern and assumed “everything was OK” and I was just an unreasonably disgruntled layman. You defend Fr Andrew’s decisions, even though you didn't research it either. It’s like I’m the only person here who both familiarized myself with GOT AND listened to the podcast episode.
Adding a disclaimer? Like, “Warning: the topic in question contains inappropriate contentography, and AFR is not responsible for the encouragement to view it the listener will receive here?” What kind of disclaimer could possibly be moral if you are familiar with the content of both GOT and the episode?

I honestly don’t understand you, Fr Matt.

it was 4 years ago, rus. I was in Seminary, starting a new school, starting a CPE program, a young priest, an Army Chaplain, and about to have a kid. forgive me for not ruminating over a single podcast for four years. it's not like I had other things on my mind.

oh, and I read the book while on deployment. I am well aware of George RR Martin's nihilism and crudeness.

Antoni · Sep 25, 2021

Andrei D said:
Among these discussions it is easy to lose sight of the realities on the ground.

I continue to be strongly against the administration of any medical procedure or treatment under duress, constraint or blackmail. It seems eerie that I even have to say that, atrocious that this statement is actually contentious.

However, in the interest of the same universal principle of informed consent, I think it is just to also point out that what I see, with my own eyes: in my state, within my healthcare system, we are finally past the peak, as it appears, of this latest wave, but in the past ~6 weeks we had a larger case load than during the whole previous year. Lots of MUCH younger, much healthier people with severe COVID disease. Among the intubated, almost exclusively unvaccinated. Positives seem to be almost half and half. Any severity of illness are a still majority unvaccinated but not by a whole lot (60-65%). Severe illness and intubated are at least 95% unvaccinated.

Right now:
210 intubated of which 207 unvaccinated
Ages:
22% aged 65+
41% aged 50-64
37% aged 18-49

I won't make commentary and I realize this is about five counties worth of data so may not be a complete picture.

Hi,

can you provide the link for this data?

rusmeister · Sep 25, 2021

ArmyMatt said:
it was 4 years ago, rus. I was in Seminary, starting a new school, starting a CPE program, a young priest, an Army Chaplain, and about to have a kid. forgive me for not ruminating over a single podcast for four years. it's not like I had other things on my mind.

oh, and I read the book while on deployment. I am well aware of George RR Martin's nihilism and crudeness.

Believe me, I understand. I am NOT trying to engage in any personal judgement, and am sure you also want reconciliation, between us, between the “liberals” and “conservatives” in the Faith, between AFR and all of its listeners, and in the Orthodox world in general.

I wish I hadn’t been right. Then I could just sit down, eat humble pie (which is good for our souls as a rule) and just work on myself. But unfortunately, I was right, Fr Andrew made a serious mistake, and is making more via his responses to angry people now. Because he was wrong to defend Steve’s podcast, not realizing that its content was entirely about promoting a bad product to the faithful as good, and is wrong to “exclude politics” when it comes to dissent with government mandates but promote it when it favors them, and, oddly enough, host speakers who challenge Church Tradition in their public lives and their politics, the right move now is to apologize and correct those mistakes, NOT pontificate on how they ought to be neutral while in fact supporting particular sides, advertently or not. The St Tikhon’s podcast is decidedly partisan, and didn’t really seek to engage dissent, only to support a position they had already assumed (the snarky “fun fact” at the beginning a clear sign of that).

I know it was not your choice, but is certainly in part due to your status, that you have had to draw lines withdrawing from some kinds of personal relationships, and I understand. I don’t wish to be seen as beating you over that. And I never expected you to think about it for four years. Only to admit that I was right in the first place, and that then, four years ago, you could have convinced Fr Andrew that I am no troll, and that I had a legitimate concern. He might not have blocked me, and might have taken a little necessary time to investigate that would have prevented the more serious eruption going on now.

To both you and him, I might offer this fun throwback:

ArmyMatt · Sep 25, 2021

rusmeister said:
Believe me, I understand. I am NOT trying to engage in any personal judgement, and am sure you also want reconciliation, between us, between the “liberals” and “conservatives” in the Faith, between AFR and all of its listeners, and in the Orthodox world in general.

I wish I hadn’t been right. Then I could just sit down, eat humble pie (which is good for our souls as a rule) and just work on myself. But unfortunately, I was right, Fr Andrew made a serious mistake, and is making more via his responses to angry people now. Because he was wrong to defend Steve’s podcast, not realizing that its content was entirely about promoting a bad product to the faithful as good, and is wrong to “exclude politics” when it comes to dissent with government mandates but promote it when it favors them, and, oddly enough, host speakers who challenge Church Tradition in their public lives and their politics, the right move now is to apologize and correct those mistakes, NOT pontificate on how they ought to be neutral while in fact supporting particular sides, advertently or not. The St Tikhon’s podcast is decidedly partisan, and didn’t really seek to engage dissent, only to support a position they had already assumed (the snarky “fun fact” at the beginning a clear sign of that).

I know it was not your choice, but is certainly in part due to your status, that you have had to draw lines withdrawing from some kinds of personal relationships, and I understand. I don’t wish to be seen as beating you over that. And I never expected you to think about it for four years. Only to admit that I was right in the first place, and that then, four years ago, you could have convinced Fr Andrew that I am no troll, and that I had a legitimate concern. He might not have blocked me, and might have taken a little necessary time to investigate that would have prevented the more serious eruption going on now.

To both you and him, I might offer this fun throwback:

the 4 year remark was me not remembering fully the contents of the podcast, and you being seemingly flabbergasted that I wouldn't remember as if I didn't have other stuff going on in my life.

if by right, you mean that GoT should never be supported by the Orthodox, I agree and have agreed. that was never my issue.

rusmeister · Sep 25, 2021

ArmyMatt said:
the 4 year remark was me not remembering fully the contents of the podcast, and you being seemingly flabbergasted that I wouldn't remember as if I didn't have other stuff going on in my life.

if by right, you mean that GoT should never be supported by the Orthodox, I agree and have agreed. that was never my issue.

I do appreciate that.
But AFR still has that podcast episode up actively promoting it. The faithful are right to demand that an Orthodox ministry not do that, or host speakers that, in their public lives, actively support positions hostile to our teachings and seeking to subvert them. If someone had Fr Andrew's ear, it would be good to suggest that the existing "kerfluffle" is not going to go away until that happens.

In the meantime, I'm trying to play peacemaker among the angry folk on FB...

ArmyMatt · Sep 25, 2021

if someone does have his ear, maybe it'll happen.

Refusing to be vaccinated against Covid-19 is a ’sin’ & anti-vaxxers must spend their life repenting

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