People Were Warned This Would Happen

Oompa Loompa said:

Yep...I said this months ago. If I am too poor or dumb to get a voter ID, how can I possibly get a covid passport or prove my identity to get a vaccine?

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In Colorado, you don't have to have a photo ID in order to be vaccinated.
Coloradans Will Not Need ID To Receive COVID Vaccine

In NYC, you don't have to have a photo ID either. You do need something legal that shows your date of birth but not a photo ID. There aren't many things I can think of other than what the website lists, except maybe a baptismal certificate. The point is it doesn't have to be a photo ID.
COVID-19: Vaccination Requirements - NYC Health

Hank77 said:

I'm not so sure it's mainly about the Tuskegee experiments. Looking at the NYC data the highest rate of vaccinations is among the two age groups over 45, whose rate is in the high 50s and 60s. The 18-44 group drops down to the low and mid-40s. False information about the vaccine causing infertility?

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Or assessment of risk for older people vs. younger people?

Or working in jobs where they cannot afford to miss time if they have a reaction?

Oompa Loompa said:

So I am told, black folks are not getting vaccinated for the same reason they cannot get a voter ID.

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No one legally in the US shouldn't be able to get a photo ID in NYC. They give plenty of different types of documents that can be used to get a photo ID and there are at least 13 DMV offices around the city.
https://dmv.ny.gov/forms/id44.pdf

Now that's just NYC, not other places around the state or around the country.
I live in a rural county. About 20 yrs ago they closed our DMV office which was open once a week. They also closed the DMV office that was 20 miles from us which was also open once a week on a different day. Now the only DMV is 70 miles from us. So for people who don't drive that's a problem.

Oompa Loompa said:

So I am told, black folks are not getting vaccinated for the same reason they cannot get a voter ID.

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you mean personal identification, haven't heard of getting a voter ID just ID requirements.

ID is required for a lot of things

Petros2015 said:

There's also some genuine mistrust there; there actually *have been* conspiracies against them in the past.

Tuskegee Syphilis Study - Wikipedia
Its revelation has also been an important cause of distrust in medical science and the US government amongst African Americans.[15]

Generally, the only things I am concerned about are incompetence or greed if I am concerned about the safety of a product. (and I think this one is safe). But not everyone has that luxury.

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If we are going on past actions of the government then we all have reasons to be concerned. Minorities, prisoners, government employees, mental patients, etc. have been subject to government abuses in regards to informed consent.

A. MKULTRA - During MK Ultra the government conducted experiments on mental patients, at least one of its own employees resulting in death, other citizens, etc.

Wikipedia page on MKultra for an overview of the topic
Project MKUltra - Wikipedia

SF weekly article which discusses operations in San Francisco where agents lured men with prostitutes then drugged them, as well as drugging people at bars, restaurants, and other locations
Operation Midnight Climax: How the CIA Dosed S.F. Citizens with LSD

Notes from the Joint Hearing before the Select Committee on Intelligence and the Sub-committee on Health and Scientific Research in 1977. The document spells out that experiments were performed on unwitting subjects, and lists a number of details
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/national/13inmate_ProjectMKULTRA.pdf

Memoranda related to the death of Dr. Frank A. Olson, as a result of an MKUltra experiment
http://www.voltairenet.org/IMG/pdf/olson_documents.pdf

A PDF copy of a 1977 New York Times article spelling out funding of experiments in private institutions. It is based on the discovered remaining documents, and interviews
https://mikemcclaughry.files.wordpr...to-control-behavior-ny-time-august-2-1977.pdf


B. Forced sterilization - The government sterilized those they deemed feebly minded, native Americans, blacks, Puerto Rican women, etc.

Wikipedia page on forced sterilization for an overview of the topic
Compulsory sterilization - Wikipedia

The majority decision of the United States Supreme Court in the case of Buck vs. Bell, in 1927, upholding sterilization for those deemed "feeble minded." Hosted by Cornell Law School
BUCK v. BELL, Superintendent of State Colony Epileptics and Feeble Minded.

CNN and MSNBC articles discuss reparations for survivors of North Carolina's sterilization program
North Carolina lawmakers OK payments for victims of forced sterilization | CNN

For eugenic sterilization victims, belated justice

CNN article discusses California's program which sterilized 20,000 people
California's dark legacy of forced sterilizations | CNN

Psychology Today article discusses the historical impact of sterilization, and notes cases where it continues today
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...201309/involuntary-sterilization-then-and-now

Jstor article recounts the sterilization of native-american populations in the United States, primarily by the Indian Health Services
The Little-Known History of the Forced Sterilization of Native American Women - JSTOR Daily

C. Sexually Transmitted Disease studies in Guatamala
From 1946-1948 United States Public Health Service studies were taking place in Guatemala, where the unknowing subjects (prisoners, mental health patients) were unwittingly, intentionally, exposed to sexually transmitted diseases. Unlike the Tuskegee study where those who already had syphilis were denied treatment, in this case the subjects were intentionally infected, and then given treatment to see what treatments would work. Some were not treated at all.

CNN article describing experiment in a US prison in which inmates were injected with gonorrhea, and later experiments in Guatemala with sexually transmitted disease, carried out without consent
Studies show 'dark chapter' of medical research - CNN.com

United States government apologizes for unethical experiments in Guatamala
US apologizes for infecting Guatemalans with STDs in the 1940s - CNN.com

Center for Disease Control summary of the Guatemalan study, which indicates that initial experiments involved infected female sex workers being intentionally used to transmit disease to prisoners. Soldiers and patients in mental hospitals were also subjects in the study
Fact Sheet on the 1946-1948 U.S. Public Health Service Sexually Transmitted Diseases (STD) Inoculation Study | HHS.gov

Lessons learned regarding informed consent, especially when the United States Government is concerned, have been costly. We should not just brush over informed consent.

newwaytobehuman said:

But why would African Americans be more likely to be exposed to more false information than other races?

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I don't think that they are.
Maybe the differences in education in more black areas compared to more white areas. White areas are more affluent with better schools?
Whites are also more likely to have a regular family doctor that they trust. Where blacks in those areas have more access to clinics and hospital ERs.

newwaytobehuman said:

am wondering could it be cultural differences?

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How so?

newwaytobehuman said:

Or mistrust of the government after experiments like Tuskagee

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That, too. I don't think it's one thing. Just like whites have different reasons for not being vaccinated and many of them believe the conspiracy theories.

Ana the Ist said:

128 died of syphilis or complications.

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Point remains, you're picking particular incidents and suggesting that people should just have tunnel vision about perspective and scale. Vaccine deaths that can be directly demonstrated as caused are hardly unexpected, unless you can substantiate this ambitious claim.

Plus we're talking absolute/relative risk assessment, the benefits of less people getting hospitalized overall is worth the risk that is kind of the case with even OTC medication (aspirin for example) that we either don't recognize or don't care about by contrast to hyperbolizing and acting like you're going to start some great revolution like in the 1700s against Britain.

Aldebaran said:

When I got the J&J shot, I asked if they wanted to see my ID, and they said, "No". They simply took my word for it when I gave them my name and other info. which they wrote on the card and gave to me. I could have given them anyone's name and they wouldn't even know. People could do that for someone who doesn't want the shot, but wants the card. Money could be made doing that.

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People already are trying that and getting charged, do you think people are this naive to not verify things. Depends also on where and how you got it, since I got mine through the health department, meaning they already have my ID on file and such.

If we're so worried about fraud, then why do we seem to just sweep the blatant attempts at fraud in regards to vaccination status that keep popping up every few months? Is that not important enough to you?

Aldebaran said:

Yeah, I do. I just want to hear one of them have the nerve to say it. More likely, they'd just say I'm a racist for even asking.

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Awfully defensive there, almost like you don't like what you hear even if it might reflect the truth. Weird how that works..

Ana the Ist said:

It's too complicated to explain...

Well I'm sure you'll forgive anyone who doesn't believe it's real, and obviously you can't be upset no one is fixing it

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So you literally just appeal to incredulity now? Are you sure you're in the right here or are you just unwilling to have an adult discussion and keep playing burden tennis instead? SEriously, this is the kind of response I'd expect from a teenager who thinks they've got it all figured out.

Ana the Ist said:

Gulf War Syndrome, thalidomide, qualuudes, oxycontin, all those "radiation treatments" were they just put radiation in stuff and called it medicine.

There's a ton of messed up chapters in medical history....but for some reason, Tuskegee is treated like it's special.

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I don't think any rational person ever claims medicine is without a dark aspect of its history, but fixating on that to try to discredit any medical advance is dangerous without actually substantiating the concerns with the immediate issue, rather than appealing to a fallacy of historical precedent, as if the modern age is identical to the past.

SilverBear said:

Conservative news organizations know they are not part of BLM but love to represent them as such.

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The vast majority of people who matched in BLM parades aren't card carrying members. It's not really an important distinction. It's not an org as much as a movement.

Ana the Ist said:

Really? So you do think you can identify systemic racism better than the black people...

Why isn't it systemic racism? The mandate is a policy which has a disproportionately larger negative impact on the black community.

Are you saying that impact is more a result of their own choices to not get the vaccine than....some magical racism hidden in a spooky system?

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Nice strawman, because I didn't say that even remotely.

The mandate itself having that effect doesn't mean it is a manifestation of systemic racism, because that systemic racism already exists, because it's built into societal structures, norms, etc. Again, you haven't even started to try to understand this, but instead just act like you already have the answers yet also play dumb. It's weird, like you can't commit to anything

Maybe understand what racism means in the context of systemic problems instead of reducing it to personal prejudices that no one is claiming emerges from a system that doesn't have intentionality in the first place

People's misunderstanding of something can lead to them trying to make it a scapegoat for their own insecurities, but you using one BLM group to reflect all black people's perspective on vaccine mandates is already massively dishonest and myopic on its face and now you're trying to pull a tu quoque and "own" people in an argument to satisfy your more than evident insecurities, coping through passive aggression to boot.

tall73 said:

If we are going on past actions of the government then we all have reasons to be concerned. Minorities, prisoners, government employees, mental patients, etc. have been subject to government abuses in regards to informed consent.

A. MKULTRA - During MK Ultra the government conducted experiments on mental patients, at least one of its own employees resulting in death, other citizens, etc.

Wikipedia page on MKultra for an overview of the topic
Project MKUltra - Wikipedia

SF weekly article which discusses operations in San Francisco where agents lured men with prostitutes then drugged them, as well as drugging people at bars, restaurants, and other locations
Operation Midnight Climax: How the CIA Dosed S.F. Citizens with LSD

Notes from the Joint Hearing before the Select Committee on Intelligence and the Sub-committee on Health and Scientific Research in 1977. The document spells out that experiments were performed on unwitting subjects, and lists a number of details
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/national/13inmate_ProjectMKULTRA.pdf

Memoranda related to the death of Dr. Frank A. Olson, as a result of an MKUltra experiment
http://www.voltairenet.org/IMG/pdf/olson_documents.pdf

A PDF copy of a 1977 New York Times article spelling out funding of experiments in private institutions. It is based on the discovered remaining documents, and interviews
https://mikemcclaughry.files.wordpr...to-control-behavior-ny-time-august-2-1977.pdf


B. Forced sterilization - The government sterilized those they deemed feebly minded, native Americans, blacks, Puerto Rican women, etc.

Wikipedia page on forced sterilization for an overview of the topic
Compulsory sterilization - Wikipedia

The majority decision of the United States Supreme Court in the case of Buck vs. Bell, in 1927, upholding sterilization for those deemed "feeble minded." Hosted by Cornell Law School
BUCK v. BELL, Superintendent of State Colony Epileptics and Feeble Minded.

CNN and MSNBC articles discuss reparations for survivors of North Carolina's sterilization program
North Carolina lawmakers OK payments for victims of forced sterilization | CNN

For eugenic sterilization victims, belated justice

CNN article discusses California's program which sterilized 20,000 people
California's dark legacy of forced sterilizations | CNN

Psychology Today article discusses the historical impact of sterilization, and notes cases where it continues today
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...201309/involuntary-sterilization-then-and-now

Jstor article recounts the sterilization of native-american populations in the United States, primarily by the Indian Health Services
The Little-Known History of the Forced Sterilization of Native American Women - JSTOR Daily

C. Sexually Transmitted Disease studies in Guatamala
From 1946-1948 United States Public Health Service studies were taking place in Guatemala, where the unknowing subjects (prisoners, mental health patients) were unwittingly, intentionally, exposed to sexually transmitted diseases. Unlike the Tuskegee study where those who already had syphilis were denied treatment, in this case the subjects were intentionally infected, and then given treatment to see what treatments would work. Some were not treated at all.

CNN article describing experiment in a US prison in which inmates were injected with gonorrhea, and later experiments in Guatemala with sexually transmitted disease, carried out without consent
Studies show 'dark chapter' of medical research - CNN.com

United States government apologizes for unethical experiments in Guatamala
US apologizes for infecting Guatemalans with STDs in the 1940s - CNN.com

Center for Disease Control summary of the Guatemalan study, which indicates that initial experiments involved infected female sex workers being intentionally used to transmit disease to prisoners. Soldiers and patients in mental hospitals were also subjects in the study
Fact Sheet on the 1946-1948 U.S. Public Health Service Sexually Transmitted Diseases (STD) Inoculation Study | HHS.gov

Lessons learned regarding informed consent, especially when the United States Government is concerned, have been costly. We should not just brush over informed consent.

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Strange that no middle class white males or females are subjects in this research.

Aldebaran said:

Do you remember the Gulf War Syndrome? For awhile, it was thought that our soldiers got it from biological weapons being used against them, and then it was thought to come from biological weapons there being in weapons depots that our troops blew up, and that biological weapon material got spread around. It turned out that the sickness came from Anthrax vaccines the soldiers were required to get due to worries that Anthrax weapons might be used in the Gulf War.

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It did not turn out that the Anthrax vaccine caused it.
Gulf War syndrome - Wikipedia