Good chooses you?

Abaxvahl

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If I understand right what people are saying here... if you become a Christian then it is really God's doing, it's preordained.

Why doesn't God want me?

God has already stated that He desires all to come to Him and actively works towards this, but persons are truly capable of rejecting Him. Moreover people who are not Christian have and can be saved so who knows what the end will be? God bless.
 
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A_Thinker

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If I understand right what people are saying here... if you become a Christian then it is really God's doing, it's preordained.

Why doesn't God want me?
God chose you too. You just didn't choose Him ...
 
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Mark Quayle

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If I understand right what people are saying here... if you become a Christian then it is really God's doing, it's preordained.

Why doesn't God want me?
What makes you think he doesn't? Do you think your very thoughts are not caused? Why would you ask, if he is not working on you?
 
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Jeshu

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If I understand right what people are saying here... if you become a Christian then it is really God's doing, it's preordained.

Why doesn't God want me?

He would love to turn you into a loving, caring, honest, brave, generous, open minded, just, free and joyful individual.

Honest it is amazing how our Creator does it. He calls you in your wrongful self to come to Him and then He transforms you right within and where the good you could never do, you can now do.

Our Creator does this through Jesus Christ, His Son, who suffered and died to pay for our wrongful actions. So You can have life in The Spirit of God and forever grow in Truth, Love and Life, or you can reject the Creator and be more and more taken over by the bad life growing inside of you because of the lies you believe about God, yourself and your neighbour.

That is why it is good to have life in His loving truth for then we are truly able to love God, ourselves and the other.

Peace.

An invitation to The Chosen.

God's Love will not take or will
you to conform to rules or demand
which imprison, enslave, burn or kill you.

God's Love will not pervert what's Good
The Lord loves truthfully Wise and Good.
True Love was, is and always will be Good!

In God's Love you are free to be right!
In His love everything is good proper and kind.
He loves all who love good and true to rule!

His Love is caring, providing, and sharing.
His Love always enjoys and protects good life.
His love rules even when bad life has being in us!

Hear Jesus call - 'Come join up with us all!
Leave whatever ties you down and be free
loving good life with all God's own to be.'

To the rest in your heart God's asks
how long will you tarry in the darkness?
Please leave such bad existence within.

For life must not, no never should, or would, or could,
be forceful, rude, prideful, arrogant, selfish, lustful
or otherwise be untrue to God's loving truth.

Neither should life be hurting or ill,
hungry, oppressed, despised, hated
or otherwise have existence in wrong.

Please hand your Bad Life over to Jesus
Humbly ask for His Good Life back in return
and go love God, self and neighbour with Joy.

The Church knows that Jesus is coming soon
All bad life will be our shameful past then,
so please leave your bad life while you can!

Love
 
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Jay Sea

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If I understand right what people are saying here... if you become a Christian then it is really God's doing, it's preordained.

Why doesn't God want me?
G-d knows all the possibilities but leaves our outcomes and choices to us. Our choices are not preordained otherwise we could say G-d made me do it.
In Love
Jay Sea
P.S. G-d G-d wants everyone to be with him and everyone will be as he because he is a just G-d but only when one opens the door to his kingdom because of love of him without fear but with awe.
In LOve
Jay Sea
 
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timf

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Why doesn't God want me?

God spoke to the nation of Israel through the prophet Jeremiah;

Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

While this statement was for the nation of Israel, I think it touches a little on the relationship of God with man in general.

Because God gave man free will, we have to seek him out. We can get a picture of how this occurs when Jesus told Pilate;

Joh 18:37b ... Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Everyone on earth has the freedom to go his own way. God cannot make you seek him without making you into a robot.

The bible calls Jesus the truth. If you would find Jesus and God, the path lies in being "of the truth".

"How to be "Of the Truth"
 
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Maria Billingsley

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If I understand right what people are saying here... if you become a Christian then it is really God's doing, it's preordained.

Why doesn't God want me?
This is the view of John Calvin. Try Jacobus Arminius.
Blessings.
 
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jayem

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This is the view of John Calvin. Try Jacobus Arminius.
Blessings.

There's a logical inconsistency between Arminianism and God's sovereignty. If God is the absolute sovereign, who has a grand plan for the universe, then why wouldn't that plan logically include who is a believer, and who is not? It's not logical that a totally sovereign God would allow anything to happen which isn't in accord with his plan. Which means that God has already decided who is, or will be, a Christian, and who will not.

There's also a corollary here. Can anyone really know s/he made a free will decision to accept Jesus? Is it not possible that God was subconsciously directing your will? It's happened before. In Exodus, the text states that Pharaoh, after several of the plagues, was ready to release the Hebrews. But God hardened his heart against emancipation. God's plan was for the Egyptians to suffer additional plagues in order to show his power. Saul of Tarsus was a Pharisee and a persecutor of Christians. Would he have become a Christian had Jesus not confronted him on the road to Damascus, and struck him blind for 3 days? In this very forum I've seen posts from Christians saying they came to belief after having spiritual experiences. If all of these are true, it tells me that God has chosen them. Calvinism—or some type of predestination—is more logically coherent.
 
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Sketcher

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If I understand right what people are saying here... if you become a Christian then it is really God's doing, it's preordained.

Why doesn't God want me?
You can't say that he doesn't want you, all you can say that if he has picked you, it has not yet come to fruition. You still could become a Christian in the time you have left.

I don't believe that God doesn't want you to come to him, or that there's anyone today that he doesn't want to come to him. But let's say there was a person out there today whom God did not want to extend his grace to, and would not save. Asking why God wouldn't want to save him seems meaningless, because it's not going to change his mind, or his authority, or his supremacy. To choose to not follow God because of this would be foolish, because there is no good option besides following God - and if we go full Calvinist, it's not really an option anyway. Under Calvinism, God either elected or rejected everyone in eternity past, and there's nothing anyone can do about it. If one rebels against God and wasn't elected, then God rejected that person first, so it doesn't matter anyway. If one rebels against God and was elected, that person will eventually be brought back into the fold, so in the big picture it's kind of like a child "running away from home" for an hour or two, only to come right back. Therefore, if someone is really, truly 100% permanently reprobate it should not deter anyone else from following God, and if Calvinism is true, it won't.
 
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Clare73

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If I understand right what people are saying here... if you become a Christian then it is really God's doing, it's preordained.

Why doesn't God want me?
Who said he doesn't?

It's not all over yet.
 
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ViaCrucis

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If I understand right what people are saying here... if you become a Christian then it is really God's doing, it's preordained.

Why doesn't God want me?

God does choose us, and He does want you.

Calvinism and Arminianism are two sides of the same coin. And as a Lutheran I find both equally problematic.

The problem with Calvinism is that it focuses on God's sovereignty, rather than the Cross and God's love and mercy.

The problem with Arminianism is that it focuses on man's ability, rather than the Cross and God's love and mercy.

Election is not God picking and choosing who will (or won't) be saved. Election is God choosing to save us in Christ, and then actually doing that.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Clare73

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God does choose us, and He does want you.

Calvinism and Arminianism are two sides of the same coin. And as a Lutheran I find both equally problematic.

The problem with Calvinism is that it focuses on God's sovereignty, rather than the Cross and God's love and mercy.

The problem with Arminianism is that it focuses on man's ability, rather than the Cross and God's love and mercy.

Election is not God picking and choosing who will (or won't) be saved. Election is God choosing to save us in Christ, and then actually doing that.

-CryptoLutheran
Sorta' falls short, don't you think, of Paul's illustration of the principle and operation of soverign election in Jacob and Esau (Romans 9:10-13), where neither twin had any bearing on their position with God.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Sorta' falls short, don't you think, of Paul's illustration of the principle and operation of soverign election in Jacob and Esau (Romans 9:10-13), where neither twin had any bearing on their position with God.

I think that the Calvinist reading of Romans ch. 9 is severely deficient. Romans 9 can't make sense except within the context of everything Paul has said previously, and also what follows. The place that Romans 9 is going is ultimately Romans 11:32.

Romans 9 isn't about God picking some and not others; rather 1) God would be within His right to create "vessels fit for destruction" should He so will it 2) God's choosing Jacob rather than Esau does not result in Esau's damnation.

Instead both Jacob and Esau, both the chosen brother and the passed over brother, both Jews and Gentiles, are included in all whom God shall make His. For God "will have mercy on whom He will have mercy" and He has "consigned all to disobedience in order that He might have mercy on all.".

The condemnation and judgement of "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" is not the final word God has, the final word God has isn't the Law, but the Gospel: All have been consigned to disobedience, as transgressors of the Law, in order that God's mercy is universal. God's mercy is for sinners, all sinners, all and without exception.

The Gospel is not about God's sovereign will and right, but rather about God's full and universal grace in Jesus Christ for all. God very well may be within His rights to create some fit only for destruction, but that isn't who God is. God isn't a capricious militant, He is the God who gives Himself up freely toward those who are not worthy of Him, in order that He might make the unlovely lovely by Himself. To clothe the naked beggar, and give him the inheritance of God's House, and honored at His Table as a beloved child.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Mark Quayle

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I think that the Calvinist reading of Romans ch. 9 is severely deficient. Romans 9 can't make sense except within the context of everything Paul has said previously, and also what follows. The place that Romans 9 is going is ultimately Romans 11:32.

Romans 11:32 is just one of the places Romans 9 is going. Not only are you imposing your bias on the context by making it sound like Romans 11:32 is THE summation of Romans, but you are misusing Romans 11:32, in your use of 'all'.

Of course Romans 9, whether making sense with or without the context, still should be taken in context, and not out of context! Where does a Calvinist reading do otherwise? I keep hearing this, but whenever a good job of exegesis is done on the chapter (or even the whole book), nothing is shown to deny Calvinism's use of Romans 9.

Romans 9 isn't about God picking some and not others; rather 1) God would be within His right to create "vessels fit for destruction" should He so will it 2) God's choosing Jacob rather than Esau does not result in Esau's damnation.
Haha! Even more hated than God's choice, is God's predestining for destruction! Yet here you go proposing just that! Better yet, you are saying he CREATES for that use, and has every right to do so —one of Calvinism's favorite claims!

Instead both Jacob and Esau, both the chosen brother and the passed over brother, both Jews and Gentiles, are included in all whom God shall make His. For God "will have mercy on whom He will have mercy" and He has "consigned all to disobedience in order that He might have mercy on all.".

The condemnation and judgement of "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" is not the final word God has, the final word God has isn't the Law, but the Gospel: All have been consigned to disobedience, as transgressors of the Law, in order that God's mercy is universal. God's mercy is for sinners, all sinners, all and without exception.

No doubt you are sincere. But the hyperbole is absent from the text. Or, more to the point, your use of 'all', to mean (as if it was part of a concept but not part of a rhetorical process) that God WILL have mercy on all (funny, here, how 'might' which is often misused by Arminians and others to say it is not decided yet but just possible, you are using to say 'will'.), is wrong, though you are right it is all inclusive in that none can bypass the principle —that only through God's mercy can any be saved.
The Gospel is not about God's sovereign will and right, but rather about God's full and universal grace in Jesus Christ for all. God very well may be within His rights to create some fit only for destruction, but that isn't who God is. God isn't a capricious militant, He is the God who gives Himself up freely toward those who are not worthy of Him, in order that He might make the unlovely lovely by Himself. To clothe the naked beggar, and give him the inheritance of God's House, and honored at His Table as a beloved child.
If God does not fit some for destruction, as is his right (which you admit), then why did he even bother to mention it? But now you have made an assertion, with only your last post to back you up, that the Gospel is not about God's sovereign will and right (though in your description of a proper use of Romans 9 you said it was), but rather about God's full and universal grace in Jesus Christ for all. Good luck —er, providence :) — with that!
 
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Clare73

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I think that the Calvinist reading of Romans ch. 9
Red herring? . . .Calvin, Luther, Arminius, Chafer, nor anyone else have anything to do with the simple and plain text, taken at its word.
is severely deficient. Romans 9 can't make sense except within the context of everything Paul has said previously, and what follows.
I find Romans 9 makes perfects sense as stated in the context of everything Paul has said previously and also what follows.
The place that Romans 9 is going is ultimately Romans 11:32.
Agreed. . .as well as going to the reason for Israel's rejection.
The book of Romans is about righteousness being only from God, and showing that all men, Gentiles and Jews alike, are shut up in sin (Romans 11:32), with a digression in Romans 10 giving a more complete explanation of the cause of Isael's rejection stated at the end of Romans 9.

Romans 9 is about God's separations in the descendants of Abraham in the context of God's promise to Israel, vindicating God's righteousness in the rejection of Israel in the light of that promise, and demonstrating the justice of that rejection by:

1) explaining the true meaning of the promise to Israel: that not all Israel is Israel, that just as there was a separation between Abraham's descendants, Isaac and Ishmael, Jacob and Esau, so there is a separation now between Abraham's descendants, unbelieving Israel and believing Israel, the remnant (11:1-5) in whom the promise is being fulfilled (vv. 6-13);

2) asserting, proving the absolute sovereignty of God in the disposition of men (vv. 14-24),

3) demonstrating the rejection of the Jews and bringing in of the Gentiles is foretold in the OT (vv. 25-29), and

4) ending with the reason for Israel's separation now--into believing Israel and unbelieving Israel (v.32); i.e., they pursued righteousness by law rather than by faith, failing to believe their own law which pointed to Christ and, thereby, stumbling over the "stumbling stone."
Esau was not Israel as demonstrated in
Romans 9
Agreed. Paul is dealing with personal election there, not Israel, and demonstrating the absolute sovereignty of God in the disposition of men.

He is further demonstrating separation/choice in his vindication of God's righteousness in rejecting Israel:
"separation" (Isaac and Ishmael) based on God's choice of/promise to Sarah,
"separation" (Jacob and Esau) based on nothing but God's absolutely sovereign choice,
"separation" again (belief and unbelief),
and fulfilling his promise to Israel in a believing remnant only, with God's choice of the Gentiles in their stead (Romans 11:19) . . .which is likewise a type/shadow of God's future greater choosing and separating in the new covenant (Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:11; Romans 8:29-30).
 
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ViaCrucis

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If God does not fit some for destruction, as is his right (which you admit), then why did he even bother to mention it?

See what the Apostle has already written, "God demonstrates His love for us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8), and what he says later, "God has consigned all to disobedience so that He may have mercy on all." (Romans 11:32).

God would be within His rights, but He doesn't.

It is not about God's sovereignty picking and choosing, it is about God's love fully expressed and embodied in Jesus Christ for the whole world.

All means all.
Christ died for everyone.
Anything less than that would not be the Gospel, and should be rightly rebuked as false gospel and anathema.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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If I understand right what people are saying here... if you become a Christian then it is really God's doing, it's preordained.

Why doesn't God want me?
Only some Christians say that. I don't even think it is a major teaching of Christianity just Calvinism.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Only some Christians say that. I don't even think it is a major teaching of Christianity just Calvinism.

Lutherans believe in predestination, but we understand it in a substantially different way than Calvinists do. Namely, predestination does not mean God rejects anyone, what is usually called "double predestination"; and further, we do not believe predestination means that the elect can't help but be saved, otherwise the Lord's teaching that even the elect can fall away and the Parable of the Sower makes no sense.

So a Lutheran response to the Five Points ofCalvinism would be:

(Calvinist position --> Lutheran position)

Total Depravity --> Total Inability

essentially the same here, we are thoroughly unable by our own power do anything to merit grace, not even a "yes" to God's invitation.

Unconditional Election --> Unconditional Election

Lutherans agree with Calvinists here, election is completely unconditional, it has nothing to do with what we've done, what we do, or what we will do. God has chosen us in Christ before the foundation of the world. God didn't choose me because there was anything about me that merited salvation, God chose me purely as an act of love and grace.

Limited Atonement --> Universal Atonement

Note that it isn't "Unlimited Atonement" as Arminianism says, it is universal. Christ died for everyone. Jesus didn't just die for the elect, Jesus didn't just die for those who would believe. Jesus died for everyone, and so literally everyone is included in Christ's perfect, finished, atoning work. That's why St. Paul can say in Romans 5:18 that all have been justified, and the author of Hebrews can say in Hebrews 2:9 that Christ suffered death for all human beings.

Jesus really did die for everyone. Not some, not most, not a few, but everyone.

Irresistable Grace --> Resistable Grace

The Lutheran position is that, yes, we can reject, deny, resist God's grace. We can, in our sin, say "no" to God and deprive ourselves of God's love and mercy. In fact, that's how people damn themselves. God isn't the one who damns sinners, we damn ourselves by our rejection of what God has done, is doing, and will do. Lutherans would agree with C.S. Lewis who writes that in the end there are only two kinds of people, those who have said to God, "Thy will be done"; and those to whom God says, "thy will be done". It is the will of God that all be saved, the only ones who won't be saved are those who insist on having everything their way--even to the bitter end.

Perseverance of the Saints --> Assurance of the Saints

The Calvinist position, having built itself atop the previous propositions, asserts therefore that it is impossible for one who has been regenerated and justified to later turn away, fall away, apostatize, etc. Lutherans reject this entirely, otherwise the Scriptures would never warn us of the danger of shipwrecking our faith, of falling away, etc. However, Lutherans insist, absolutely, on the assurance and total confidence we can have in Jesus. Not by trying to peer into a crystal ball to read God's hidden thoughts, not by looking inside of ourselves at our feelings, or looking at our works, or anything we've said, or done, thought, or even believed. Rather, we can look to the external, visible, objective realities of the Gospel--the physical body and blood of Jesus that hung upon the cross that we receive "in, with, and under" the symbols of bread and wine; the physical water of Baptism which is connected to God's word, in which we have been born again as God's children and united to Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, to the preaching of the Gospel itself (when the Gospel is being faithfully preached and not mingled together with Law), and the audible words of Absolution where we hear forgiveness of our sins spoken in the name, stead, and authority of Jesus Christ.

It is the visible, external, objective word of God that gives us assurance that we belong to Christ. Not a mystical experience, or by assessing the length or shortness of the logs in our eyes. We are, all of us, sinful sinners that sin, naked beggars; it is only by the long and everlasting arm of God's love and compassion for us in Jesus Christ that gives us hope, confidence, and assurance of our salvation.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Mark Quayle

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See what the Apostle has already written, "God demonstrates His love for us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8), and what he says later, "God has consigned all to disobedience so that He may have mercy on all." (Romans 11:32).

God would be within His rights, but He doesn't.

It is not about God's sovereignty picking and choosing, it is about God's love fully expressed and embodied in Jesus Christ for the whole world.

All means all.
Christ died for everyone.
Anything less than that would not be the Gospel, and should be rightly rebuked as false gospel and anathema.

-CryptoLutheran
All means absolutely everyone who ever will have lived? Always?

Have you ever heard the saying, "The sacrifice was sufficient for all, efficient for only the Elect."?
 
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