The Seed of Abraham

Clare73 · Sep 22, 2021

Biblewriter said:
If you had bothered to actually read what I posted, you would know that I clearly recognized that.

Recognizing and agreeing/accepting are two different things.

Forked tongue?

Clare73 · Sep 22, 2021

HARK! said:
You would do well to study Torah, and Hebrew.

And would you do not even better to believe the New Covenant revelation of the NT.

I'll use this verse to demonstrate your misunderstanding:

YHWH is speaking to Abraham.

(CLV) Gn 15:5
Then He brought him forth outside and said: Now look up toward the heavens and count off the stars if you can number them.(How many stars are there? YHWH is pointing out a great number) And He promised him: Thus shall become your seed. (Notice the word seed is singular.)

This is the correct rendering of the Hebrew word זרע zera, not zeraim.

If fact, nowhere in the TaNaK can you find the word, "zeraim" used in reference to a multitude of offspring, for good reason; that would be grammatically incorrect.

In comparison, in English, let's say that someone spoke of a field of sheep; and you asked "how many?" Someone else interjects and says "one; he said sheep, not sheeps."
Would you correct him; or would you ignore him?

And if someone else interjects and says "one; he said sheep in the corner, not all the field, meaning the one sheep, the bloody one."
Would you correct him; or would you ignore him?

So let me see if I have this straight. . .

We are to ignore the apostle who was taught personally by Jesus Christ himself (Galatians 1:11-12), who was taken up into the third heaven where he heard things man is not allowed to speak; i.e., Paul (2 Corinthians 12:1-8), and instead believe you regarding Galatians 3:16?

Really? . . .wouldn't that be called chutzpah?

Is that orthodox New Covenant Christianity?

Biblewriter · Sep 22, 2021

Clare73 said:
Recognizing and agreeing/accepting are two different things.

Forked tongue?

No. I AGREED that the "Seed" in the promises referred to in Galatians 3:16 was Christ. And I CLEARLY stated that that was UNQUESTIONABLE. So you are the one speaking with a irked tongue.

But then I PROVED that there were ALSO other promises made to Abraham's "seed" that were UNQUESTIONABLY about his PHYSICAL DESCENDANTS as a group.

Biblewriter · Sep 22, 2021

Clare73 said:
As you would do even better to believe the New Covenant revelation of the NT.
Let me see if I have this straight. . .

We are to ignore the apostle who was taught personally by Jesus Christ himself (Galatians 1:11-12), who was taken up into the third heaven where he heard things man is not allowed to speak; i.e., Paul (2 Corinthians 12:1-8), and instead believe you regarding Galatians 3:16?

Really? . . .wouldn't that be called chutzpah?

That is not orthodox New Covenant Christianity.

What you are teaching is NOT what the Holy Spirit said through the Apostles. It is only YOUR INTERPRETATION of what these sayings MEANT. And your INTERPRETATION flatly contradicts a literal HOST of other EXPLICITLY STATED scriptures.

You falsely accuse me of INTERPRETING prophetic RIDDLES, to deny clear scripture, while YOU are the one INTERPRETING some scriptures to deny other scriptures. I am only pointing out what the scriptures actually SAY, and not only say, but EXPLICITLY say, not in RIDDLES, but in PLAIN, CLEAR words.

Clare73 · Sep 22, 2021

Biblewriter said:
No. I AGREED that the "Seed" in the promises referred to in Galatians 3:16 was Christ. And I CLEARLY stated that that was UNQUESTIONABLE. So you are the one speaking with a irked tongue.

But then I PROVED that there were ALSO other promises made to Abraham's "seed" that were UNQUESTIONABLY about his PHYSICAL DESCENDANTS as a group.

A forked tongue both affirms and denies the one/same fact of Galations 3:16:
"The promises (plural, no exclusions stated) were spoken to Abraham. . .and to one person, Jesus Christ."

But the fact remains: The promises were spoken to one seed, one person, Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:16).

The emperor has no clothes, and has deceived himself that he has beautiful clothes.

Clare73 · Sep 22, 2021

Biblewriter said:
What you are teaching is NOT what the Holy Spirit said through the Apostles. It is only YOUR INTERPRETATION of what these sayings MEANT. And your INTERPRETATION flatly contradicts a literal HOST of other EXPLICITLY STATED scriptures.

So you would have me believe that
"the promises (plural, no exclusions stated) were spoken to. . .one person, who is Christ,"
does not mean: the promises were spoken to one person, who is Christ. . .
that I intepret that incorrectly?

By the way, would you like to buy my interest in a nice bridge in Brooklyn which I am selling?

You falsely accuse me of INTERPRETING prophetic RIDDLES, to deny clear scripture, while
YOU are the one INTERPRETING some scriptures to deny other scriptures.

I am only pointing out what the scriptures actually SAY, and not only say, but EXPLICITLY say, not in RIDDLES, but in PLAIN, CLEAR words.

I know!

And what could be more WHAT THEY ACTUALLY SAY than:
"the promises were spoken to one person, who is Christ"?

Do you not know that the incomplete OT is to be understood in the light of the NT, which is its completion?

Biblewriter · Sep 22, 2021

Clare73 said:
A forked tongue both affirms and denies the one/same fact of Galations 3:16:
"The promises (plural, no exclusions stated) were spoken to Abraham. . .and to one person, Jesus Christ."

But the fact remains: The promises were spoken to one seed, one person, Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:16).

The emperor has no clothes, and has deceived himself that he has beautiful clothes.

You can make false accuations. But you cannot answer the OP. For it PROVES what I said with quotatiins of scriptures that actually say it.

Clare73 · Sep 22, 2021

Biblewriter said:
You can make false accuations. But you cannot answer the OP. For it PROVES what I said with quotatiins of scriptures that actually say it.

There's nothing for me to prove.

Paul proves it all in Galatians 3:16:
"the promises were spoken to Abraham and to one person, who is Christ"

You just don't believe him. . .I do.

Biblewriter · Sep 22, 2021

Clare73 said:
There's nothing for me to prove.

Paul proves it all in Galatians 3:16:
"the promises were spoken to Abraham and to one person, who is Christ"

You just don't believe him. . .I do.

I ABSOLUTELY believe that. But you are pretending that it says ALL the promises .It says no such thing, nor does it even imply that.

Clare73 · Sep 22, 2021

Biblewriter said:
I ABSOLUTELY believe that. But you are pretending that it says ALL the promises .It says no such thing, nor does it even imply that.

"The promises" were spoken to Abraham. . .and to Christ.

Not all promises were spoken to Abraham (e.g., 2 Samuel 7:12, 16; Isaiah 9:6-7; Jeremiah 23:5, 31:31-34; Ezekiel 34:23-24, 37:24-28).

But the promises spoken to Abraham come to all those in Christ:
Genesis 12:3 - all peoples of the earth blessed through him, or his seed (Genesis 22:18),
Genesis 12:7 - land promise, fulfilled to him in the heavenly city/land (Hebrews 11:13-16),
Romans 4:13 - heir of the world (i.e., creation of Romans 1:20).

And not only those promises, but all the Messainic promises come to all those in Christ, the Messiah.

claninja · Sep 22, 2021

Biblewriter said:
But then I pinted out that there were also OTHER promises made to Abraham, which unquestionably spoke of his "seed" as his PHYSICAL DESCENDANTS, as a group.

And I pointed out that these promises clearly show that, although all true believers are children of Abraham by faith, that neither means, nor even implies, that the promises made to Abraham's PHYSICAL DESCENDANTS will be fulfilled in ANYONE except his PHYSICAL DESCENDANTS.

and it is here that your seemingly unintentional straw man is made.

Of course the OT promises to Abraham and his offspring, such as Israel being in bondage in Egypt for 400 years (exodus 1), Israel being given all the land promised to them (Joshua 21:45), and Israel becoming as a multitude of stars (Deuteronomy 1:10) already came upon the physical descendants of Abraham typologically. I don’t know any major school of theology that would disagree otherwise.

so I don’t see how your point relates to Galatians 3:16, 28-29? Do some schools of theology believe the 3 promises I just mentioned above are what the promises refer to in Galatians 3:16,28-29 in regards to the church? None that I am aware of…

Biblewriter said:
Many point out that, since Christ is unquestionably he "seed" of Abraham spoken of in the promise referred to in Galatians 3:16, then those who have trusted in Christ, that is, the church, are the promised "seed" of Abraham.

that’s because that is what Galatians 3:28-29 states. Whether one is Jew or Greek, IF they are Christ’s, THEN they are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.

Clare73 · Sep 22, 2021

Biblewriter · Sep 23, 2021

Clare73 said:
"The promises" were spoken to Abraham. . .and to Christ.

Not all promises were spoken to Abraham (e.g., 2 Samuel 7:12, 16; Isaiah 9:6-7; Jeremiah 23:5, 31:31-34; Ezekiel 34:23-24, 37:24-28).

But the promises spoken to Abraham come to all those in Christ:
Genesis 12:3 - all peoples of the earth blessed through him, or his seed (Genesis 22:18),
Genesis 12:7 - land promise, fulfilled to him in the heavenly city/land (Hebrews 11:13-16),
Romans 4:13 - heir of the world (i.e., creation of Romans 1:20).

And not only those promises, but all the Messainic promises come to all those in Christ, the Messiah.

When you say this, you are adding to what the scriptures say.

"Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar." (Proverbs 30:6)

Biblewriter · Sep 23, 2021

claninja said:
and it is here that your seemingly unintentional straw man is made.

Of course the OT promises to Abraham and his offspring, such as Israel being in bondage in Egypt for 400 years (exodus 1), Israel being given all the land promised to them (Joshua 21:45), and Israel becoming as a multitude of stars (Deuteronomy 1:10) already came upon the physical descendants of Abraham typologically. I don’t know any major school of theology that would disagree otherwise.

so I don’t see how your point relates to Galatians 3:16, 28-29? Do some schools of theology believe the 3 promises I just mentioned above are what the promises refer to in Galatians 3:16,28-29 in regards to the church? None that I am aware of…

that’s because that is what Galatians 3:28-29 states. Whether one is Jew or Greek, IF they are Christ’s, THEN they are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.

I agree with you completely. For this is only what the scriptures actually say. My prob;em is not there. Instead, my problem is the use you people make of these scriptures, claiming that the ancient proimses made to the physical descendants pf Abraham through his son Isaac and grandson Jacob, whim God re-named Israel, have been transferred to "the church."

No scripture says, or even implies, this. Instead, the scriptures are filled with explicitly stated promises made, not only to the ancient NATION of Israel, (and yes, it explicitly uses the word "nation") but alsy to each of the ancient sub-nations of Ephraim and Judah, ant to each of the twelve tribes of Israel by name, as well as to the descendants of seven specific individuals other than Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

claninja · Sep 23, 2021

Biblewriter said:
I agree with you completely. For this is only what the scriptures actually say. My prob;em is not there. Instead, my problem is the use you people make of these scriptures, claiming that the ancient proimses made to the physical descendants pf Abraham through his son Isaac and grandson Jacob, whim God re-named Israel, have been transferred to "the church."

Well, that's because the NT clearly states the gentiles are now a part of the commonwealth of Isarel and fellow heirs with the Jews in Christ

Ephesians 3:6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

Ephesians 2:11-16 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.

Galatians 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slaveg nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

Biblewriter said:
No scripture says, or even implies, this. Instead, the scriptures are filled with explicitly stated promises made, not only to the ancient NATION of Israel, (and yes, it explicitly uses the word "nation") but alsy to each of the ancient sub-nations of Ephraim and Judah, ant to each of the twelve tribes of Israel by name, as well as to the descendants of seven specific individuals other than Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

I absolutely agree there are many OT promises that were spoke to the physical descendants of Abraham and fulfilled, according to the OT, with the physical descendants of Abraham (exodus 1, Joshua 21:45, Deuteronomy 1:10).

However, we do need to be careful to follow the NT on fulfillments of OT prophecies as well.

for example, according to Paul, how was the uniting of the northern kingdom (ephraim) and the southern kingdom (Judah) fulfilled? By the uniting of believing Jews and believing Gentiles in Christ. (Romans 9:24-26).

Biblewriter · Sep 23, 2021

claninja said:
Well, that's because the NT clearly states the gentiles are now a part of the commonwealth of Isarel and fellow heirs with the Jews in Christ

Ephesians 3:6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

Ephesians 2:11-16 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.

Galatians 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slaveg nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

I absolutely agree there are many OT promises that were spoke to the physical descendants of Abraham and fulfilled, according to the OT, with the physical descendants of Abraham (exodus 1, Joshua 21:45, Deuteronomy 1:10).

However, we do need to be careful to follow the NT on fulfillments of OT prophecies as well.

for example, according to Paul, how was the uniting of the northern kingdom (ephraim) and the southern kingdom (Judah) fulfilled? By the uniting of believing Jews and believing Gentiles in Christ. (Romans 9:24-26).

Not even one of the scriptures you quoted even hints at an idea that "the gentiles are now a part of the commonwealth of Isarel." The scriptures say no such thing. That is interpretation on your part.

Clare73 · Sep 23, 2021

Biblewriter said:
When you say this, you are adding to what the scriptures say.

Ad yet every word of it is straight from the NT.

Go figure. . .

Biblewriter · Sep 23, 2021

Clare73 said:
Ad yet every word of it is straight from the NT.

Go figure. . .

No. Most of the words were straight from scripture. But you added a few words. And the words you added changed the sense.

claninja · Sep 23, 2021

Biblewriter said:
Not even one of the scriptures you quoted even hints at an idea that "the gentiles are now a part of the commonwealth of Isarel." The scriptures say no such thing. That is interpretation on your part.

Paul said the the believing gentiles were “at one time” (which implies that such is no longer the case): 1.) separate from Christ, 2.) alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, 3.) strangers to the covenants of the promise, and 4.) without hope and God in the world.

Ephesians 2:12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

since your contention is that the gentiles are not even hinted at as being part of the commonwealth of israel, so too do you also believe the gentiles are still separate from Christ and still without hope and God in the world?

Clare73 · Sep 23, 2021

Biblewriter said:
No. Most of the words were straight from scripture. But you added a few words. And
the words you added changed the sense.

Demonstration please.

The Seed of Abraham

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