Understanding The Eucharist

Do you believe in the Eucharist?

  • Yes

    Votes: 8 66.7%
  • No

    Votes: 3 25.0%
  • No sure

    Votes: 1 8.3%

  • Total voters
    12

Clare73

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I guess I will have to study what his real presence mean.
He says in Matthew "For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”
But maybe it's not the same as saying he is present, or present in the way He is in the eucharist. So in the eucharist, it's meant that Jesus is present physically, because of the bread and wine that is transformed?
What do you guys think of the Pentecostal belief that you can take communion in any meal you eat and give thanks?
Jesus separated the institution of the Lord's Supper from the potatoes and gravy that went before,
and limited it to bread and wine only. Likewise, he instituted it at a prescribed Jewish religious ordinance, Passover Meal, not at a regular meal.
Paul likewise rejects the notion of it being a regular meal for hunger (1 Corinthians 11:20-22, 1 Corinthians 11:34).
Or is that against the verse of the Bible that says to be prepared when doing so? But at the same time they do not have the same focus on his death, but more that He is risen. Thus taking away much of the focus of what happened on the cross.
It's not the Lord's Supper ordained in the NT.
Do you think many of the church rituals have evolved is because they were illiterate back then? So today it's more of a tradition? Are there modern orthodox churches that are a bit more relaxed and not as much bound to many ritual practices?
Illiteracy is overplayed during the time of Christ.
 
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The Liturgist

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The laity's portion of the liturgy is fairly standard in the Orthodox church.

Litanies
"Let us pray for X, Y, Z"
<Lord have mercy>

Standard hymns in the Liturgy (Im going off of my head here)
"Through the intercessions"
"Save us Son of God"
"Only begotten Son of God"
Hymn of the church
Cherubic Hymn
"Holy, holy, holy"
"Axion estin"
"We have seen the Light"

Generally I don't need the hymnal for the liturgy. After 20 years I have these hymns memorized in Greek and English.

If you want variety, that's for Vespers and Matins

Indeed. I really like the worship pattern, where the Divine Liturgy is constant, whereas Vespers and Matins, or the combined service of All Night Vigils in the Slavonic churches, contains the hymns proper to the day. The Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian churches also work on this principle. For example, the Syriac Orthodox equivalent of the Horologion and Octoechos is the Shimo, and another book, the Fenqitho, is like the Menaion, Triodion and Pentecostarion, in that it has the hymns for various fixed and movable feasts.

Likewise, in the Coptic Orthodox Church, the majority of the propers are in the Psalmody. The Coptic Orthodox divine office, of which I am sure our friends @Pavel Mosko and @dzheremi are very well acquainted, is extremely beautiful, but it is also somewhat unique in that it combines an almost invariant sort of combination of an Horologion and Psalter, the Agpeya, which contains fixed offices for the different canonical hours, with fixed Gospel lessons which are repeated daily, and the Agpeya offices only change during Holy Week, then, there is the Morning and Evening Raising of Incense, which I believe is also invariant, but more ornate than the Agpeya services, and finally there is the Psalmody, which actually in monasteries occurs at Vespers, at the Midnight Office and at Matins, and that is the highly variable service where you find the elaborate hymns like the Psalis, which are evocative of the Byzantine canons.

Speaking of Byzantine Rite canons, the Syriac Orthodox liturgy uses a large number of them; in addition, there is another type of Qanone hymn that folloes the Byzantine pattern but which was written by Syriac Orthodox composers, and then there is an indigenous Syriac type of Qanone (or Canon).

Sadly, the Armenian liturgy became less elaborate and developed some practices which detach the divine office from the laity; there used to be 13 anaphoras including a Presanctified liturgy in the Armenian church, but now there is only one; it is a beautiful anaphora, named for St. Athanasius and based on the Divine Liturgy of St. James, and the structure of the Armenian liturgy including the Synaxis follows the Byzantine Rite, albeit with a Roman Catholic influence, which is the reading of John 1:1-14 at the end of every Eucharistic liturgy (Soorp Badarak or Patarag in Western Armenian and Eastern Armenian respectively). A curious canon came into effect in the Armenian church which restricts the liturgy to use on Sundays and feast days only, and Vespers and the other offices are only celebrated in the largest and most important cathedrals, like Holy Etchmiadzin in Yerevan, or the Holy Sepulchre Basillica in Jerusalem, which is where you find Armenian monks. So as a result the Armenian pattern of worship features slightly fewer propers than what one might otherwise wish for.

I really wish the Armenian church would do three things: embrace the Coptic, Syriac and Eastern Orthodox practice of using vernacular languages like contemporary Eastern or Western Armenian or English alongside the Classical Armenian, bring back the beautiful anaphoras that fell out of use in the 1300s including the Presanctified Liturgy and an active divine office optimized for lay participation, and finally, make more use of the elaborate, exquisite and unique style of architecture we see in Armenian churches in the Middle East, particularly the Holy Land, for example, in the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem and the Armenian parts of the Basillica of the Holy Sepulchre. In particular, the more ancient Armenian churches feature particularly exquisite reliquaries, iconography and oil lamps, whereas more recent Armenian churches seem a bit austere in comparison.

The Assyrian Church of the East has recently revived the Presanctified Liturgy, and the Syriac Orthodox church is working on it, and I am extremely happy about this (actually, the oldest presanctified liturgy was probably written by St. Severus), because I love presanctified liturgies and what they stand for in terms of Eucharistic theology. One of the more disastrous recent reforms of the Roman Catholic liturgy occurred in 1955, when Pope Pius XII “restored” the Paschal Triduum, which meant that he got rid of the common liturgical text in the Roman Mass of the Presanctified served on Good Friday, and the Eastern Orthodox Presanctified Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great used in Lent and Holy Week (but not Good Friday); obviously, these shared a common text, because St. Gregory the Great, who you @GreekOrthodox of course know as St. Gregory Diologos, became (arguably the best) Pope of Rome, and he wrote the Presanctified Liturgy predominantly used in both churches, albeit on different occasions.

Also, there used to be a Vesperal Mass on the morning of Holy Saturday in the Roman Church which closely resembled the equivalent Byzantine Divine Liturgy, in that it featured 12 Old Testament lessons (compared to 14 in the Eastern Orthodox tradition) that were prophecies of the incarnation, passion and resurrection of our Lord and of his identity, most of which were the same as those used in the Eastern Orthodox church, and the original purpose of these, like in the Eastern Orthodox church, was to be read while the energumens - catechumens due to be baptized that day, were baptized. But Pope Pius XII redid it and ruined it based on various theoretical ideas about what the Roman liturgy had once been like during the Paschal Triduum, and this sort of speculative revision was a harbinger of the more disastrous changes to the Roman liturgy at Vatican II.
 
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The Liturgist

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Jesus separated the institution of the Lord's Supper from the potatoes and gravy that went before,
and limited it to bread and wine only. Likewise, he instituted it at a prescribed Jewish religious ordinance, Passover Meal, not at a regular meal.
Paul likewise rejects the notion of it being a regular meal for hunger (1 Corinthians 11:20-22, 1 Corinthians 11:34).
It's not the Lord's Supper ordained in the NT.

Illiteracy is overplayed during the time of Christ.

You are correct on these points. Seriously, my only objection, and the only objection of @ViaCrucis and others, to your Eucharistic theology, is the idea that when we partake of the Eucharist, we are not partaking of our resurrected and living savior, which, Christologically, makes no sense. No one ever taught that in antiquity; it seems vaguely Nestorian but Nestorius certainly did not teach that doctrine, and neither did Theodore of Mopsuestia. The consensus of every theologian in every denomination I am aware of that believes in the Real Presence, even the Calvinists, who believe He is spiritually but not physically present in the Eucharist, is that we are partaking of our living savior.

If I might ask, what denomination are you affiliated with? Or, where did you get this doctrine?
 
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The Liturgist

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What do you guys think of the Pentecostal belief that you can take communion in any meal you eat and give thanks?

I wasn’t aware that any Pentecostals believed that, and frankly, I am scandalized, shocked and appalled by it. The Eucharist is a solemn, beautiful thing, to be celebrated as we are in the actual physical or spiritual presence of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, as if we are actually at the Last Supper, with extreme reverence, beauty and solemnity. The idea of anything other than bread and wine* being consecrated so as to be, through the action of the Holy Spirit, the true body and blood of our Lord, shocks me. I think it would shock most Christians, even those with a Memorialist or Zwinglian interpretation of the Eucharist.

*Traditionally, church wine, as used to this day in the Eastern Orthodox churches and all but one of the Oriental Orthodox churches, is red wine, that is extremely sweet, not heavily fermented or alcoholic, and is dilluted with water, for two reasons, the first being that in the time of Christ, it was normal for wine to be prepared with water, and at more lavish banquets than the Lord’s Supper, such as those among the Roman Patricians, various spices were added; drinking straight wine was regarded as uncivilized, but secondly and more importantly, when the Roman soldier pierced the side of our Lord with his spear, blood and water came out. So in the Eastern Orthodox liturgy, immediately before the Eucharist, hot water, I believe its called something like xeon ( @GreekOrthodox what is the word I am searching for?) is added to the chalice. This also makes the wine warm, which has the effect of further reminding us that we are partaking of the sacred blood of our Lord, the blood of the New Covenant, given for our salvation and life everlasting.
 
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Clare73

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You are correct on these points. Seriously, my only objection, and the only objection of @ViaCrucis and others, to your Eucharistic theology, is the idea that when we partake of the Eucharist, we are not partaking of our resurrected and living savior, which, Christologically, makes no sense. No one ever taught that in antiquity;
I know that you know "salvation through faith and not by works" (Ephesians 2:8-9) also was not taught in antiguity, so I'm hoping you will understand why antiquity has no authority over Scripture with me in 1 Corinthians 11:26; in its presentation of Jesus' fulfillment of the OT sacrifices, of the OT sacrificial meal on the sacrifice itself, as well as Jesus' institution of the NT sacrifical meal on the very day of his sacrifice.

I'm not understanding why the living Jesus within US is not more important and meaningful than a living Jesus within the bread.
Can you help me out with that?
it seems vaguely Nestorian but Nestorius certainly did not teach that doctrine, and neither did Theodore of Mopsuestia. The consensus of every theologian in every denomination I am aware of that believes in the Real Presence, even the Calvinists, who believe He is spiritually but not physically present in the Eucharist, is that we are partaking of our living savior.
However, Calvin makes no such statement.
If I might ask, what denomination are you affiliated with
My theology came before my church affiliation.
I have chosen the Presbyterian, PCA, because I am in agreement with the Westminster Confession (except on divorce and remarriage), and I love the Reformation!
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Well that is beautiful and very exotic to what I've ever done before personally. I see both richness and humbleness in doing so. But at the same time it also feels very ritualistic, "mechanical", repetitive. I don't mean that in a wrong or bad way, but am I wrong in saying that the early Christians wasn't as dogmatic? But I guess they were, they were Jews after all. And I see problems all over my own lifestyle in not repeating things that in fact is very important spiritually. But as an outsider, it would take a whole lifestyle change, and I wonder if Jesus or God really care that much that we ritually do these things in such a way over and over? Jesus seemed to be breaking many Jewish habits, but I could be wrong of course. It is very inspiring to say the least and I thank you for spelling it out for me in this way!

I've seen people form the Pentecostal movement here in Denmark, which is pretty different from the ones in America I think, show many signs of deep communion and worship to God. But more loosely, as they don't have that many rituals.

And I see the same thing in in the Orthodox movement, deep communion and worship, and taking rituals very seriously.

I'm sure I'm wrong, but I've come to compare people to their likeness of chocolate. Some like dark and some light, and in their act of worship it comes out differently in their ways of personality. I could see people more on the introvert/autistic side be more drawn to rituals and extroverts on a more free church style. And I find myself somewhere in the middle not sure what I find to be right or what I prefer. Anyways, that's off-topic for another day.
Liturgy is not what we do; rather it is all about what God does for us. It is unfortunate that the State Church in Denmark has become more of a socio-political entity than and ecclesial communion.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Liturgy is not what we do; rather it is all about what God does for us. It is unfortunate that the State Church in Denmark has become more of a socio-political entity than and ecclesial communion.

That seems to be the historic nature of all state religions.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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*Traditionally, church wine, as used to this day in the Eastern Orthodox churches and all but one of the Oriental Orthodox churches, is red wine, that is extremely sweet, not heavily fermented or alcoholic, and is dilluted with water, for two reasons, the first being that in the time of Christ, it was normal for wine to be prepared with water, and at more lavish banquets than the Lord’s Supper, such as those among the Roman Patricians, various spices were added; drinking straight wine was regarded as uncivilized, but secondly and more importantly, when the Roman soldier pierced the side of our Lord with his spear, blood and water came out. So in the Eastern Orthodox liturgy, immediately before the Eucharist, hot water, I believe its called something like xeon ( @GreekOrthodox what is the word I am searching for?) is added to the chalice. This also makes the wine warm, which has the effect of further reminding us that we are partaking of the sacred blood of our Lord, the blood of the New Covenant, given for our salvation and life everlasting.

Zeon is the boiling water added to the chalice during the liturgy. Most churches have a small electric teakettle in the sacristy to get the water boiling. Then a few minutes before the consecration, one of the altar servers pours it into a small kettle (below) and then takes it to the priest to pour into the chalice itself.

upload_2021-9-24_11-3-55.jpeg


The Celebrant takes the warm water and blesses it
saying: Blessed ✠ is the fervor of Thy Saints, always: now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.

The Celebrant pours a sufficient quantity of the warm
water into the Chalice crosswise, saying: The fervor of Faith, full of the Holy Spirit.
Amen
 
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The Liturgist

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Zeon is the boiling water added to the chalice during the liturgy. Most churches have a small electric teakettle in the sacristy to get the water boiling. Then a few minutes before the consecration, one of the altar servers pours it into a small kettle (below) and then takes it to the priest to pour into the chalice itself.

View attachment 306300

The Celebrant takes the warm water and blesses it
saying: Blessed ✠ is the fervor of Thy Saints, always: now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.

The Celebrant pours a sufficient quantity of the warm
water into the Chalice crosswise, saying: The fervor of Faith, full of the Holy Spirit.
Amen

Indeed, I have seen such an electric tea kettle when I was invited into the Altar behind the iconostasis in a Russian Orthodox parish, on the Table of Preparation. The zeon is a very special and important aspect of the Orthodox Eucharistic experience, and my view is that this practice should be adopted by other churches wherever possible (one could see hypothetical problems with some Western parishes in terms of the distance between the Holy Table in the exposed open altar and the sacristy being too great, or in the absence of enough acolytes or altar servers for there to be one who would bring the zeon from the sacristy to the Altar; it would not look good to do that if you only had one altar server, obviously, but the solution in that case is to use water that might not be as hot as one would otherwise prefer).
 
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