Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

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Maria Billingsley

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What is it about universal redemption that annoys so many Christians?
It is not the truth. Those who follow man made doctrines will not inherit the Kingdom of God. This is why true Christians fight for truth. Our faith in Jesus Christ of Nazareth and His Gospel.
Blessings.
 
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Albion

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What is it about universal redemption that annoys so many Christians?

Thanks for asking. I think that most Christians decide on the basis of Scripture and not by what would be nice if it were true, etc.

So if we turn to Scripture for the answer, there are a few sketchy references in the Bible that might suggest Universal Salvation, but there are so many others that speak in different ways of the lost being eternally lost and punished, that the weight of Scripture really cannot, in good conscience, be set aside when we contemplate this issue.
 
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Lazarus Short

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Thanks for asking. I think that most Christians decide on the basis of Scripture and not by what would be nice if it were true, etc.

So if we turn to Scripture for the answer, there are a few sketchy references in the Bible that might suggest Universal Salvation, but there are so many others that speak in different ways of the lost being eternally lost and punished, that the weight of Scripture really cannot, in good conscience, be set aside when we contemplate this issue.

My considered impression on reading the KJV was that it was a UR text with a few ECT snippets. Digging a little, I found those snippets to be bad translations or outright insertions. That brings us to the quest of the OP: what holds most Christians back from eager acceptance of UR?

Is it not that that they have been indoctrinated with a few "proof" texts that seem to support "hell" and damnation, while dozens of UR-friendly texts go un-noticed and un-acknowledged? I have those dozens of UR-friendly texts in a computer file and can copy/paste them at any time.

I think we are barely past the days when Bibles were chained to the pulpit and Christians had only what the priest cared to share. Today, most Bibles gather dust on coffee tables or the backs of pews, while Christians STILL only have what the priest/minister/preacher cares to share.
 
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Albion

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My considered impression on reading the KJV was that it was a UR text with a few ECT snippets. Digging a little, I found those snippets to be bad translations or outright insertions. That brings us to the quest of the OP: what holds most Christians back from eager acceptance of UR?
As said, there are a few, a scant few, verses that merely hint at the possibility of UR. Against that, there are many and emphatic verses that speak of the lost being permanently lost. That's what has led almost every Christian denomination to take the latter view, and they all are aware of the "translation" issues you referred to.

But if this issue is to be pushed further, we will need a good argument FROM SCRIPTURE that shows the purported evidence for Universalism to be convincing. In other words, why it is that almost every Christian denomination has gotten such a significant belief dead wrong? Talking generally about God being loving or forgiving (which is the favorite reply of many people who are comforted by the thought that there is no hell or, if there is, that it is not very intimidating) is not going to do it.
 
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Andrewn

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That brings us to the quest of the OP: what holds most Christians back from eager acceptance of UR? Is it not that that they have been indoctrinated with a few "proof" texts that seem to support "hell" and damnation, while dozens of UR-friendly texts go un-noticed and un-acknowledged?
The question I have is whether UR is suitable for general teaching in a church setting. My impression is that it is not. Generally, Christians believe in ECT and a teacher who mentions UR will be immediately rejected. And as for unbelievers, they also know that ECT is the standard Christian doctrine, but they themselves mostly believe in universal salvation or universal annihilation. So, who really is ready to hear a teaching about UR except some deep-thinking CF junkies like myself :).

I have those dozens of UR-friendly texts in a computer file and can copy/paste them at any time.
Would you please either post that file or send a PM to me?
 
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Lazarus Short

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Would you please either post that file or send a PM to me?

Glad to!

GENESIS





18:18 all the nations of the earth will be blessed



28:14 all the families of the earth will be blessed





NUMBERS



16:22 the God of the spirits of all flesh





I KINGS



8:43 all the people of the earth will come to know and fear you, just as your own people Israel do.





PSALMS



46:10 "I will be honored by every nation. I will be honored throughout the world."



65:2 O you who hear prayer, to you shall all flesh come.



86:9 All the nations you made will come and bow before you, Lord; they will praise your holy name.



138:4 O Jehovah, all kings of earth confess Thee, When they have heard the sayings of Thy mouth.





ISAIAH



11:9 Nothing will hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain, for as the waters fill the sea, so the earth will be filled with people who know the LORD.



52:10 The LORD will lay bare his holy arm in the sight of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth will see the salvation of our God.



52:15 Kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they understand.



61:11 or as the earth brings forth its bud, and as the garden causes the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord Yahweh will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.



65:1 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, to a nation that was not called by my name.



66:18 it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.



66:23 all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD.





LAMENTATIONS



3:31-32 For the Lord will not cast off for ever: but though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.



(NLT)- For no one is abandoned by the Lord forever. Though he brings grief, he also shows compassion because of the greatness of his unfailing love.





DANIEL



7:14 And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.



7:27 ..the Most High. His kingdom will last forever, and all rulers will serve and obey him."





MICAH



4:1-5 ..he will teach us his ways,

and we will walk in his paths."

For the LORD's teaching will go out from Zion;

his word will go out from Jerusalem.

The LORD will mediate between peoples

and will settle disputes between strong nations far away.

They will hammer their swords into plowshares

and their spears into pruning hooks.

Nation will no longer fight against nation,

nor train for war anymore.

Everyone will live in peace and prosperity,

enjoying their own grapevines and fig trees,

for there will be nothing to fear.





HABAKKUK



2:14 For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea











MATTHEW



20:8-15 That evening he told the foreman to call the workers in and pay them, beginning with the last workers first. When those hired at five o'clock were paid, each received a full day's wage. When those hired first came to get their pay, they assumed they would receive more. But they, too, were paid a day's wage. When they received their pay, they protested to the owner, 'Those people worked only one hour, and yet you've paid them just as much as you paid us who worked all day in the scorching heat.'

"He answered one of them, 'Friend, I haven't been unfair! Didn't you agree to work all day for the usual wage? Take your money and go. I wanted to pay this last worker the same as you. Is it against the law for me to do what I want with my money? Should you be jealous because I am kind to others?'





LUKE



2:10 but the angel reassured them. "Don't be afraid!" he said. "I bring you good news that will bring great joy to all people.



2:14 Glory to God in the highest, And on earth peace, goodwill toward men!"



3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.'



9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them



19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and save those who are lost."



20:38 For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him."





JOHN



1:29 "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!



3:17 God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.



4:42 Now we believe, not just because of what you told us, but because we have heard him ourselves. Now we know that he is indeed the Savior of the world."



6:37 those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them.



6:39 And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day. *John 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands



6:45 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.



12:32 And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw (Greek, literal, DRAG) everyone to myself."



12:47 I will not judge those who hear me but don't obey me, for I have come to save the world and not to judge it.





ACTS



3:21 For he must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration of all things, as God promised long ago through his holy prophets.



3:25-26 You are the children of those prophets, and you are included in the covenant God promised to your ancestors. For God said to Abraham, 'Through your descendants[a] all the families on earth will be blessed.'





ROMANS



8:20-22 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but (C)because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.



9:16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.



11:15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?



11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,

"THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,

HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."



11:32 For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.



15:21 I have been following the plan spoken of in the Scriptures, where it says,

"Those who have never been told about him will see,

and those who have never heard of him will understand"





I CORINTHIANS



3:14,5 But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames.

If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.



5:5 Then you must throw this man out and hand him over to Satan so that his sinful nature will be destroyed and he himself will be saved on the day the Lord returns.



15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son Himself also be subject unto Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

15:5

1 Behold, I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep; but we shall all be changed





II CORINTHIANS



5:18,19 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation,



to wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them, and hath committed unto us the Word of reconciliation.





GALATIONS



3:8 What's more, the Scriptures looked forward to this time when God would declare the Gentiles to be righteous because of their faith. God proclaimed this good news to Abraham long ago when he said, "All nations will be blessed through you."

In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight

He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him

with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him

also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,



4:13 This will continue until we all come to such unity in our faith and knowledge of God's Son that we will be mature in the Lord, measuring up to the full and complete standard of Christ.





PHILIPPIANS



2:10-11 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,

in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,

to the glory of God the Father.



COLOSSIANS



1:20 and through him God reconciled

everything to himself.

He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth

by means of Christ's blood on the cross.



I TIMOTHY



1:15 This is a trustworthy saying, and everyone should accept it: "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners"—



2:4-6 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.



4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.





HEBREWS



2:9 Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.



2:17 so that he could be our merciful and faithful High Priest before God. Then he could offer a sacrifice that would take away the sins of the people.



8:11,12And they will not need to teach their neighbors,

nor will they need to teach their relatives,[d]

saying, 'You should know the LORD.'

For everyone, from the least to the greatest,

will know me already.

And I will forgive their wickedness,

and I will never again remember their sins



9:26 else must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once at the end of the ages hath he been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.



10:10 For God's will was for us to be made holy by the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ, once for all time.



10:17 then he adds, "I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more."





I PETER



3:18-20 because also Christ once for sin did suffer -- righteous for unrighteous -- that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the spirit,

in which also to the spirits in prison having gone he did preach,

who sometime disbelieved, when once the long-suffering of God did wait, in days of Noah -- an ark being preparing -- in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water;



II PETER



3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. *(John 13:3)





I JOHN



2:2 He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins—and not only our sins but the sins of all the world.



3:5 And you know that Jesus came to take away our sins, and there is no sin in him.



4:10 This is love: not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the payment for our sins.



4:14 Furthermore, we have seen with our own eyes and now testify that the Father sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.





REVELATION



3:9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.



5:13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:



" Blessing and honor and glory and power

Be to Him who sits on the throne,

And to the Lamb, forever and ever!"



11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign to the ages of the ages!'





14:6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people—



15:4 Who will not fear you, Lord,

and glorify your name?

For you alone are holy.

All nations will come and worship before you,

for your righteous deeds have been revealed."



20:14 Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire.



21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.



21:5 And the one sitting on the throne said, "Look, I am making everything new!" And then he said to me, "Write this down, for what I tell you is trustworthy and true."



22:2 On each side of the river grew a tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, with a fresh crop each month. The leaves were used for medicine to heal the nations.



22:3 No longer will there be a curse upon anything.



22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." Let anyone who hears this say, "Come." Let anyone who is thirsty come. Let anyone who desires drink freely from the water of life.
 
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As said, there are a few, a scant few, verses that merely hint at the possibility of UR.

Would you say that these verses, for instance, "merely hint at the possibility of UR"? or do they not plainly point towards the salvation of all and is this not what the Good News of the gospel actually is?

for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:22

19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.
Colossians 1 19-20​

Therefore just as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man's act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all.
Romans 5:18
If there is a non-UR reading to these verses, would you mind saying what that is?
 
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Talking generally about God being loving or forgiving (which is the favorite reply of many people who are comforted by the thought that there is no hell or, if there is, that it is not very intimidating) is not going to do it.

It's the exact opposite in fact. UR takes sin far more seriously than the ECT doctrine because it sees sin as ultimately being totally eradicated. ECT is a paradigm that preserves sin in an eternal hell with the inference that God is too weak to achieve his stated intention of eventually being "all in all".
 
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Der Alte

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It's the exact opposite in fact. UR takes sin far more seriously than the ECT doctrine because it sees sin as ultimately being totally eradicated. ECT is a paradigm that preserves sin in an eternal hell with the inference that God is too weak to achieve his stated intention of eventually being "all in all".
There is not one single verse in the entire Bible where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, says unequivocally that all mankind will be saved, righteous and unrighteous, alike even after death. Or words to that affect. Jesus repeated many of His teachings but He never said that even once.
 
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In other words, why it is that almost every Christian denomination has gotten such a significant belief dead wrong?

You are talking about denominations 500+ years after Christ. Much of church before then was universalist - exactly what proportion unknown but Augustine said that "many" Christians were. Looking at today's denominations, I can easily quite easily believe that they have got it wrong, can't you?
 
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Would you say that these verses, for instance, "merely hint at the possibility of UR"? or do they not plainly point towards the salvation of all and is this not what the Good News of the gospel actually is? * * *
for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:22 * * *​
All mankind are inherently "in Adam" because all mankind are literal descendants of Adam. But all mankind are not "in Christ." Here is what Paul said about being "in Christ."
Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
NOT “in Christ” NOT ”in Him” NOT gathered together in one.
Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
NOT “in Christ” NO redemption.
Romans 8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.​
“Walk after the flesh” NOT “in Christ” and there IS condemnation.
Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.​
NOT “in Christ” NOT free from the law of sin and death.
Romans 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.​
NOT “in Christ” NOT a member of the body.
1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:​
NOT “in Christ” NO sanctification, NO redemption.
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.​
Not “in Christ” old things NOT passed away, old things NOT made new.
Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.​
NOT “in Christ” NOT children of God.
Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.​
NOT “now in Christ Jesus” NOT ”made nigh” still far off.
2 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,​
NOT “in Christ” NO promise of life.
2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.​
NOT “in Christ” NO salvation.
2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.​
NOT “in Christ” NO salvation.
 
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The question I have is whether UR is suitable for general teaching in a church setting. My impression is that it is not.

You're probably right. I was reading something from some of the universalist Early Church Fathers recently, probably Origen or Gregorian of Nyssa, sorry to be so vague - I can dig out the exact references if required - who said that UR is best not taught to some people because they psychologically need the threat of an eternal hell in order to lead Christian law-abiding lives. I can quite believe that!
 
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Would you say that these verses, for instance, "merely hint at the possibility of UR"? or do they not plainly point towards the salvation of all and is this not what the Good News of the gospel actually is?
That's a fair question.

for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:22

19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.
Colossians 1 19-20[/quote]​

Therefore just as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man's act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all.
Romans 5:18
If there is a non-UR reading to these verses, would you mind saying what that is?
To begin, I said that there are some verses that suggest (not prove, but hint at) UR. These are examples, but if we are not reading things into them, most do not necessarily refer to an eternity in heaven for everyone.

Yes, Christ's sacrifice can be said to "lead to...life for all." But there are all sorts of ways that "life" can be interpreted that is not an eternity in heaven, and "lead to" does not say "it's guaranteed," which is what you hope to find.

Or take "God reconciled to himself all things." The work of Christ certainly set the whole business of life on Earth on balance again, following its fall in the Garden with Adam and Eve.

But does that mean an eternity in heaven for every human? You see what I mean. And it says "all things." Do you then believe Scripture to be promising eternal life for all animals and/or the righting of all unfortunate events, etc.? If not, why does it say "all things'' (not all Men)?

So these, plus a few others I could name, do possibly to hint at UR. But none say that there is universal salvation, that all humans will go to heaven. And then we have to deal with the many other and more numerous verses that seem with even more certainty to speak of the lost being eternally LOST! By and large, in these discussions, they are just dismissed as "not translated correctly."
 
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Albion

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You are talking about denominations 500+ years after Christ.
What you mean to say is still existing 500+ years after Christ. These are not branches of Christianity that just sprung up yesterday. More than a couple have had a continuous existence since the Apostles and none of them have ever made Universalism their belief. No Creed, whether the Nicene or Athanasian or any other, affirms universal salvation. Doesn't that tell you something important?

Much of church before then was universalist - exactly what proportion unknown but Augustine said that "many" Christians were.
You are mainly talking about the opinion of certain historical figures and the attitudes of certain theological schools from that era, not the historic church.
 
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You are talking about denominations 500+ years after Christ. Much of church before then was universalist - exactly what proportion unknown but Augustine said that "many" Christians were. Looking at today's denominations, I can easily quite easily believe that they have got it wrong, can't you?
These statements are patently false. The only reference to "the majority of schools were universalist" is from Schaff, Herzberg encyclopedia which provides no, zero, none evidence in support of that claim.
Quoting one word "many" allegedly from some unnamed Augustine writing is hardly evidence of anything.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Please don't include me in your "our" because I totally disagree with you.
That is such a sad comment. I would hope Christians agree on Jesus Christ of Nazareth and His Gospel.
Blessings.
 
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That is such a sad comment. I would hope Christians agree on Jesus Christ of Nazareth and His Gospel.
Blessings.

But what does that mean? I do not agree that Jesus Christ of Nazareth would torment someone forever and His Gospel most certainly does not teach that He would, however sad that may be.
 
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Andrewn

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UR is best not taught to some people because they psychologically need the threat of an eternal hell in order to lead Christian law-abiding lives. I can quite believe that!
I believe this also. Some people may need to be scared of hell. Others may need to feel superior to the "unsaved" (as you explained in the OP). A lot of people are traditionalists, they just need to feel they belong in a group of peers. Perhaps the only group that may benefit from teaching about UR are people who lost loved ones that were unbelievers. This teaching may give them hope in God's mercy.
 
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Hmm

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I believe this also. Some people may need to be scared of hell. Others may need to feel superior to the "unsaved" (as you explained in the OP). A lot of people are traditionalists, they just need to feel they belong in a group of peers. Perhaps the only group that may benefit from teaching about UR are people who lost loved ones that were unbelievers. This teaching may give them hope in God's mercy.

Agreed. Another group who may perhaps benefit would be those who have left the church or won't give it a try because they can't swallow the notion of an endlessly tormenting God.
 
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